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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 08:21:00 PM »

I agree with Lord.

It is interesting how when you disagree with someone's principles, they are automatically bigots.

The BSA has a founding in Christian beliefs, and they are sticking to them despite the relativism that is rampant in our culture.

Everyone has their personal line, they drew theirs, to much heat and criticism.  If you don't like it, don't join, and then mind your own business.
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tsrup
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »

I know Nathan is miffed because of their personnel policies, but the same First Amendment that recognizes his natural right to complain about them and denounce them as "bigots" is the very same Amendment that codifies our rights to Free Association and Religion, and BSA would not begrudge Nathan his right to object.
a bigot is a bigot.

1st Amendment grants them (the ones who make policy, not John Doe Scoutmaster who's in it to provide something positive for the scouts) the right to be one, and protects my right to call em out on it (again, read: organization).

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Intolerance is a funny character trait to instill in the future leaders of America...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 08:34:42 PM by tsrup » Report to moderator   Logged
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Major Lord
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 08:46:21 PM »


–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. 

I am "utterly intolerant" of many, many things, as it appears you are too! That's the thing about irony. We wear your brand of "Intolerance" for the codeword it really is. "Tolerance" is the politically correct codeword for moral cowardice. You say "a bigot is a bigot". I say there is good, and there is evil. I fully support your right to any belief and association you may choose. If you don't choose to grant BSA members the same courtesy, then who is the bigot? I stand with BSA.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
tsrup
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 08:59:15 PM »



From Mirriam-Webster's Dictionary
Quote
big·ot noun \ˈbi-gət\
Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed  adjective
— big·ot·ed·ly adverb

Sure, tell yourself that open discrimination is the same as being intolerant of those who do.

I guess I'm a bigot.  ::)


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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 09:11:10 PM »

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Someone I don't waste my time worrying about.
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tsrup
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Someone I don't waste my time worrying about.

fair enough.
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Hawk200
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 09:35:12 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.
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NIN
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 09:48:31 PM »

Wow, never seen that, either

Brand new cubmaster here. :)
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HGjunkie
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2011, 10:01:44 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:15 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.

I have seen news reports about an Eagle Scout who became a Scouter and got his bird revoked and his membership terminated when he came out of the closest. I have seen news reports about atheists that got cashiered for trying to get any and all references to god removed from the program.

Now whether you agree with the decisions or not is irrelevant. BSA has a standard based on principles(whether you share those is again irrelevant) and is refusing to yield those standards. They are a private organization and the Supreme Court has ruled they may set their standards as they see fit. If you don't share their principles you have no right to enforce yours on them just as they have no right to enforce theirs on you.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2011, 11:24:04 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.

I have seen news reports about an Eagle Scout who became a Scouter and got his bird revoked and his membership terminated when he came out of the closest. I have seen news reports about atheists that got cashiered for trying to get any and all references to god removed from the program.

Now whether you agree with the decisions or not is irrelevant. BSA has a standard based on principles(whether you share those is again irrelevant) and is refusing to yield those standards. They are a private organization and the Supreme Court has ruled they may set their standards as they see fit. If you don't share their principles you have no right to enforce yours on them just as they have no right to enforce theirs on you.

Well said.
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tsrup
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2011, 11:29:26 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.

Comparing whats been stated here on the board to your example is a straw man argument.  I don't think anyone on this board thinks its okay to force your principles on someone else. 


My opinions are my own, and I don't try to push them on anyone, nor do I expect to be compared to those that do.


To summarize,

The BSA is an organization with a rich background and an ambitions goal.  Not much unlike our organization. They have numerous dedicated volunteers that spend long hours to make their organization run.  However, there membership practices are discriminatory in nature, this is where many secular individuals find fault with their organization.  What does that mean?  Nothing, it means that those who's principles fall in line with the BSA will find fulfillment, and those who don't will find fulfillment elsewhere. 

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.
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cap235629
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2011, 11:34:03 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.


Actually it is exactly what has happened to the BSA for years.  And year after year they win many more than they lose.  The losses will eventually become wins because the BSA has the will and the way to enforce their standards all the way to the Supreme Court.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2011, 11:55:54 PM »

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.
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cap235629
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2011, 11:58:46 PM »

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.

Don't even get me started on the Girl Scouts.  They are POLAR opposites of the BSA.  Baden-Powell is probably rolling over in his grave.
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tsrup
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2011, 12:10:09 AM »

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.

Because we don't want to risk them not selling us any cookies.

I would die without my annual thin mints binge.
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Major Lord
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2011, 12:14:37 AM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.

Comparing whats been stated here on the board to your example is a straw man argument.  I don't think anyone on this board thinks its okay to force your principles on someone else. 


My opinions are my own, and I don't try to push them on anyone, nor do I expect to be compared to those that do.


To summarize,

The BSA is an organization with a rich background and an ambitions goal.  Not much unlike our organization. They have numerous dedicated volunteers that spend long hours to make their organization run.  However, there membership practices are discriminatory in nature, this is where many secular individuals find fault with their organization.  What does that mean?  Nothing, it means that those who's principles fall in line with the BSA will find fulfillment, and those who don't will find fulfillment elsewhere. 

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

The original post had nothing to do with fun being poked at BSA. The O.P. asked why BSA was hated. The question is well answered in the reflexive views posted above. BSA is reviled by secular humanists, because BSA has the temerity to stick to a set of objective values. In a test of one value system against another, the secular humanist will use his moral relativism to dance over the question of "intolerance", Not accepting the obvious paradox that intolerance of Judeo-Christian values is in and of itself, intolerance, his political test of "morality" is incapable of producing a rational explanation. The Secular Humanist philosophy does indeed "hate" the Boy Scouts, who represent a belief system that incorporates moral absolutes. This fetish for "tolerance" is fundamentally a transparent attempt to reshape Christian morality into something more appealing to the Secular Humanist. They hope to restructure the Judeo-Christian belief system into a more "tolerant" and non-judgmental philosophy, free from any moral restraint that may interfere with their goal of creating a more comfortable environment for behaviors on the outsides of the Bell Curve of human behavior.

Secondly, Secular Humanists just hate the idea of God, which conflicts with their more enlightened and modern beliefs. FYI, Boy Scouts don't have to believe in "God" : only acknowledge that there is a "Creator" ( Naturally, there is no one to determine if they are telling the truth-how could you really know? People lie. )  One would think that this is not too high a bar, so why does the secular humanist philosophy hate the concept of a "creator"? The answer is in the documentation of our founding: A blanket statement that our natural rights were endowed upon us by our creator. No creator? QED; No natural human rights!

We constantly hear these arguments from people who may not even understand the belief system that they champion. Everything Good is Evil is their slogan. Boy Scouts? Bad! America? Bad! Apple pie? Bad! Christian Morality? Bad! Employers? Evil! Morality? No such animal!

BSA has had the guts to fight for their beliefs, and to defend their organization with every fiber of their being. When its time to stand up and fight, do you want to be with BSA or NAMBLA?

Major Lord
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cap235629
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2011, 12:22:47 AM »

Judeo-Christian?

Here is the ACTUAL stance and policy:

BSA Religious Principles
(Reprinted from the 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions.)

The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America:

   1. Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.
       
   2. Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association.
       
   3. Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices.
       
   4. If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations.

Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

I know people who would be called "pagan" by most who practice a god is the Earth, the earth is God type of faith who are very open about it and VERY active in the BSA.

To some it up, to belong to the BSA you can't believe we are just a big accidental arrangement of sub-atomic particles..... That is it.
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Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2011, 12:25:37 AM »

I would die without my annual thin mints binge.

^
This. x 10
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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tsrup
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2011, 12:43:56 AM »


The original post had nothing to do with fun being poked at BSA. The O.P. asked why BSA was hated.
How about we let the OP decide what he was asking..  He did seem satisfied with my answer, if it wasn't the case, then you are right:
 
Quote
The question is well answered in the reflexive views posted above.

Quote

BSA is reviled by some secular humanists,
fixed it for you
Quote
because BSA has the temerity to stick to a set of objective values. In a test of one value system against another, the secular humanist will use his moral relativism to dance over the question of "intolerance", Not accepting the obvious paradox that intolerance of Judeo-Christian values is in and of itself, intolerance, his political test of "morality" is incapable of producing a rational explanation. The Secular Humanist philosophy does indeed "hate" the Boy Scouts, who represent a belief system that incorporates moral absolutes. This fetish for "tolerance" is fundamentally a transparent attempt to reshape Christian morality into something more appealing to the Secular Humanist. They hope to restructure the Judeo-Christian belief system into a more "tolerant" and non-judgmental philosophy, free from any moral restraint that may interfere with their goal of creating a more comfortable environment for behaviors on the outsides of the Bell Curve of human behavior.
I like how you try to put words in my mouth.  I have stated repeatedly that I do not hate the BSA.  I have no interest in reshaping their values, nor do most people who share the same view as my own.  A true secular individual could care less about where the values came from, whether it was from The Bible, The Q'ran, Mein Kampf, or a Clifford the big red dog book.  I don't care where it came from, I don't care that it's in use.  I just don't agree with it.  I am not out in the trenches with big signs or contacting lawyers of the ACLU, because I don't care what your beliefs are. 

Its clear that the BSA does not want me, and I do not want them.  Their loss, not mine.  There is no reason to start a war over it.

Quote
Secondly, Secular Humanists just hate the idea of God, which conflicts with their more enlightened and modern beliefs. FYI, Boy Scouts don't have to believe in "God" : only acknowledge that there is a "Creator" ( Naturally, there is no one to determine if they are telling the truth-how could you really know? People lie. )  One would think that this is not too high a bar, so why does the secular humanist philosophy hate the concept of a "creator"? The answer is in the documentation of our founding: A blanket statement that our natural rights were endowed upon us by our creator. No creator? QED; No natural human rights!
Here you go making my argument up for me again.
A secular individual does not hate God.  A secular individual simply just does not believe in Him.  A common misconseption I'm sure.  But again that argument is neither here nor there, and only a thread lock is whats waiting if it goes that way.  I encourage you to PM me if you wish to discover the issue between secular vs. religious beliefs.

Quote
We constantly hear these arguments from people who may not even understand the belief system that they champion. Everything Good is Evil is their slogan. Boy Scouts? Bad! America? Bad! Apple pie? Bad! Christian Morality? Bad! Employers? Evil! Morality? No such animal!

BSA has had the guts to fight for their beliefs, and to defend their organization with every fiber of their being. When its time to stand up and fight, do you want to be with BSA or NAMBLA?

Major Lord

Nothing like an "if you don't like us you're a child molester" statement to round out a solid argument.


and for the record, I LOVE apple pie.
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