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davidsinn
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« on: March 23, 2011, 04:53:02 PM »

Why is there so much hate for Boy Scouts in CAP? Honest question. I see it from time to time both here and on CS. Yes, there are differences in the programs and we are more Ops oriented but they've been around for a century and are considered an American institution. Usually it comes from cadets and can be explained at youthful hubris but once in a while it's a SM that is saying it. I don't get it.
 
 Full Disclosure: I'm an Eagle Scout from the class of 2002.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 05:02:18 PM »

I have never seen that.

I have a lot of respect for them - different programs with different missions and goals - the BSA is clearly more focused on the social / family aspects
of the organization, but nothing wrong with that.

I was a Boy Scout and my kids are Cub Scouts.
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Larry Mangum
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 05:08:49 PM »

I have seen it, but never found the reason for it. I suspect it is envy or the usual " we're better then you" mentality of kids.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 05:25:02 PM »

I have seen this too.  Mostly from people who don't know much about Scouts.  CAP and Scouting have different focuses.  I am an Eagle Scout (class of 1994) and know what a great program Scouting has.  So does CAP.
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manfredvonrichthofen
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 05:35:27 PM »

I have seen it  as well. I even use BSA as a comparison when people bad mouth the cadet program.

I was never a Boy Scout (almost used abrev. for that and realized it would come out as BS ::)) no one in my family was either, if anyone  since WWII was in any sort of youth program, it was in CAP. But we know the value of the BSA, it's goals are just different than CAP's goals. No one needs to hate the BSA, no one needs to talk badly about the BSA, were there no CAP, they just might be doing the ground ops that CAP is doing. CAP is not for everyone, JROTC is not for everyone, and BSA is not for everyone, but one of the three or even ACC might be the one for any particular teen, let them all be, and focus on your mission in CAP. If you have a mission with the BSA as well, focus on both of your missions, and congrats to you, it is hard enough for me to juggle CAP and my daughter in Girl Scouts, I don't have enough time to give to everything I want to. Just be glad that they are there so that every teen has at least one opportunity to give to their community and to do something positive, and not be on drugs.
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Larry Mangum
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 05:37:47 PM »

The funny thing, is that a CAP unit can be dual chartered with the BSA and I have been around units that were, yet they never did any BSA things.  I do know that dual chartered unit, do gain access to BSA facilities and camps.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »

I have to agree with David.

A lot of times the BSA is used as a bad word on both forums.

Not my everyone but it is out there.

Full Disclosure.....Eagle Scout class of 1983!......20 year Scouter......and now not able to be a scout due to religious intolerance.  ;D

But I agree that we in CAP can learn a lot from how BSA does business and I have said so before.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 05:56:54 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 06:05:09 PM »

I'm actually in an area where the BSA gets sort of a bad rap from older CAP cadets due to an incident that happened at an airshow a couple years back. Being both BSA and CAP, I get irritated when people say one program sucks or is useless. They both serve a point, have different methods, and different missions. I'm proud to be in both.

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 06:13:41 PM »

Our unit is dual chartered, and over all we've not used the scouting resources much but they do come up in planning. Mostly it's because of scheduling that we end up going with what we go with, but .. I will say from a local viewpoint, that when I think of scouting, I come away with the representation I have seen in public. (Airshows, malls, public service) has been on the scale of displeasing visually at least. The uniforms, lack there of, the condition (wrinkled, ill-fitting, just thrown on.) 

An A for effort, and an F for execution, more than once I've seen their booths at an event and there are kids running around behind, signs made with torn cardboard box and thick marker written on it.

I realize that this is not representative of the entire organization, but I will say that in all the CAP displays I have seen, nothing has come half as close to that.

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tsrup
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 06:19:25 PM »

I tried scouting when I was younger, but found it unfulfilling, as all we did at meetings was play tag.  Little was done toward merit badges or any other skills.  I find that, however, no way indicative of the organization in general, as many of my friends became eagle scouts in other programs.  I just never could get back into it, even when we moved somewhere else.

Personally, unless BSA drastically redraws their membership practices, I will not be allowing my kids (way down the road) to join.  No dollar of mine will go toward an organization with that kind of bigotry. 

They are free to draw their membership requirements as they wish, and I am free not to contribute toward that.  I think they do their own members a disservice by encouraging that sort of behavior.
If that makes me a bad person because I dislike the BSA (the organization, not the kids that take part or the dedicated individuals that help them grow), then so be it.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 06:38:15 PM »


 I tried scouting when I was younger, but found it unfulfilling, as all we did at meetings was play tag.  Little was done toward merit badges or any other skills.  I find that, however, no way indicative of the organization in general, as many of my friends became eagle scouts in other programs.  I just never could get back into it, even when we moved somewhere else.
 
 Personally, unless BSA drastically redraws their membership practices, I will not be allowing my kids (way down the road) to join.  No dollar of mine will go toward an organization with that kind of bigotry.  
 
 They are free to draw their membership requirements as they wish, and I am free not to contribute toward that.  I think they do their own members a disservice by encouraging that sort of behavior.
 If that makes me a bad person because I dislike the BSA (the organization, not the kids that take part or the dedicated individuals that help them grow), then so be it.
 

 
 Your post is not the kind of thing I was talking about. You made your point respectfully and intelligently.
 
 The kind of thing I'm talking about is in a thread on CS about " you know you're a cadet when..." One of the responders posted about "you think Boy Scouts are gay" I actually find that post amusing because of the youthful ignorance of it in light of the points you made but it's just an indicator of other things I've observed.
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 06:39:00 PM »

I will add, too that when I was of scouting age and of three units I was part of, a cub scout unit in Florida and a two boy scout units in the San Diego area.. the Florida one was cliquish now that I look back on it, and that lasted until a great majority of my fourth grade class got head lice from somewhere and she made people come in her house with shower caps on and not touch anything or sit on anything except piano benches. A bunch never went back after that. It was too weird even dealing with her in school where she volunteered.

After the next school year we moved to California and when I got into a close by troop, walking distance even and they met at a Mormon meetinghouse and I even knew some of the other kids. My brother OTOH, being a Catholic chaplain had some issue with that and urged that I switch to the troop that met near the Navy hospital on Camp Pendleton.

Ugh. That blew. The "your not one of us" attitude was there from the first minute. After about 5 months of that I had enough. I would take the bus and get off one stop before, and go use the obstacle course by the lake instead, and then about 2 hours later get back on another bus to go home until I just said "I don't want to go there anymore."

I wish I had found CAP back then. :( I know now, right where the closest unit met..  right where we do today.
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tsrup
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 06:51:44 PM »


 I tried scouting when I was younger, but found it unfulfilling, as all we did at meetings was play tag.  Little was done toward merit badges or any other skills.  I find that, however, no way indicative of the organization in general, as many of my friends became eagle scouts in other programs.  I just never could get back into it, even when we moved somewhere else.
 
 Personally, unless BSA drastically redraws their membership practices, I will not be allowing my kids (way down the road) to join.  No dollar of mine will go toward an organization with that kind of bigotry.   
 
 They are free to draw their membership requirements as they wish, and I am free not to contribute toward that.  I think they do their own members a disservice by encouraging that sort of behavior.
 If that makes me a bad person because I dislike the BSA (the organization, not the kids that take part or the dedicated individuals that help them grow), then so be it.
 

 
 Your post is not the kind of thing I was talking about. You made your point respectfully and intelligently.
 
 The kind of thing I'm talking about is in a thread on CS about " you know you're a cadet when..." One of the responders posted about "you think Boy Scouts are gay" I actually find that post amusing because of the youthful ignorance of it in light of the points you made but it's just an indicator of other things I've observed.

There is just no place for unguided (the "boy scouts are gay" statement is kind of funny in an ironic sort of way, shows more of the ignorance of the speaker) attacks at any organization for any reason in CAP.  Not when we are trying to promote professionalism and that we deal with members of the BSA in some capacity more often than we know. 

Not to say playful razzing every now and then is uncalled for because I mean, I love the Boy Scouts; we gotta search for someone.  >:D
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 07:23:12 PM »

Is it me or does every GTE have a missing Boy Scout scenario?
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CivilAirPatrol1996
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 07:51:33 PM »

I was a Cub Scout from the ages of 8-10 and then a Boy Scout from 10-18.

I only missed my Eagle Scout because I didn't get all the requirements done before my 18th birthday.

A couple of the troops I belonged to were good...others, well, I was virtually the scoutmaster because the SM didn't bother to show up, and in one...let's just say that CPPT and CAP/BSA's background checks now are there for a reason.  But that was in the 1970's/early '80s.

With all that, though, I still had some good times.

I don't see any reason to slag the Scouts.
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 07:53:47 PM »

Full Disclosure.....Eagle Scout class of 1983!......20 year Scouter...

I win.  I made Eagle in 1974 and promptly left when the program underwent a major change.  That was the year they decided that since it was impossible to advance beyond second class scout without camping that they would revise the program so you could get all the way to life scout while being an inner city kid.

One million scouts quit, and they "mostly" changed the program back.  They did keep the "batman Belts".

There was a big influx to the CAP Cadet program that year.  I was one of them.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 08:09:42 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 08:16:05 PM »

I think that comparing BSA to CAP is an error. BSA is an organization that has the creation of America's future leaders as a goal, but that is where the comparison ends. BSA is profoundly concerned with morality, and CAP is not just indifferent on the position of "morals" they are institutionally hostile to the concept- to the point of actually banning the very word in regards to our chaplaincy. This does not make BSA superior to CAP intrinsically, but its easy to see why the mission of BSA and their involvement in community activities makes them massively different (and more popular) than the smaller and narrower CAP mission. Although I have seen posts in the past that seem hostile to BSA, they come from people with an obvious axe to grind, and we are an organization that is open to a wide variety of opinions. Personally, as a former First Class Scout ( My Scoutmaster was active duty Air Force and his deployment brought our troop to an abrupt end) and Scout Leader, I have never been more proud of the Boy Scout Organization than I am now. Integrity is doing the right thing even when you know in advance it is going to cost you, and BSA has rejected popular societal notions even when they had to row hard against the tide. I am also proud of being a CAP member; Not because CAP is an organization that has natural morality ( Heck, we just don't!) but because CAP members are willing to put their lives and fortunes at stake to do the mission which we know to be necessary. I know Nathan is miffed because of their personnel policies, but the same First Amendment that recognizes his natural right to complain about them and denounce them as "bigots" is the very same Amendment that codifies our rights to Free Association and Religion, and BSA would not begrudge Nathan his right to object.

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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 08:21:00 PM »

I agree with Lord.

It is interesting how when you disagree with someone's principles, they are automatically bigots.

The BSA has a founding in Christian beliefs, and they are sticking to them despite the relativism that is rampant in our culture.

Everyone has their personal line, they drew theirs, to much heat and criticism.  If you don't like it, don't join, and then mind your own business.
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tsrup
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »

I know Nathan is miffed because of their personnel policies, but the same First Amendment that recognizes his natural right to complain about them and denounce them as "bigots" is the very same Amendment that codifies our rights to Free Association and Religion, and BSA would not begrudge Nathan his right to object.
a bigot is a bigot.

1st Amendment grants them (the ones who make policy, not John Doe Scoutmaster who's in it to provide something positive for the scouts) the right to be one, and protects my right to call em out on it (again, read: organization).

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Intolerance is a funny character trait to instill in the future leaders of America...
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 08:46:21 PM »


–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. 

I am "utterly intolerant" of many, many things, as it appears you are too! That's the thing about irony. We wear your brand of "Intolerance" for the codeword it really is. "Tolerance" is the politically correct codeword for moral cowardice. You say "a bigot is a bigot". I say there is good, and there is evil. I fully support your right to any belief and association you may choose. If you don't choose to grant BSA members the same courtesy, then who is the bigot? I stand with BSA.

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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
tsrup
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 08:59:15 PM »



From Mirriam-Webster's Dictionary
Quote
big·ot noun \ˈbi-gət\
Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed  adjective
— big·ot·ed·ly adverb

Sure, tell yourself that open discrimination is the same as being intolerant of those who do.

I guess I'm a bigot.  ::)


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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 09:11:10 PM »

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Someone I don't waste my time worrying about.
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tsrup
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »

Tell me, what exactly is a someone who doesn't let you into their club because of your religion or sexual orientation other than a bigot?

Someone I don't waste my time worrying about.

fair enough.
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 09:35:12 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.
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NIN
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 09:48:31 PM »

Wow, never seen that, either

Brand new cubmaster here. :)
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2011, 10:01:44 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:15 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.

I have seen news reports about an Eagle Scout who became a Scouter and got his bird revoked and his membership terminated when he came out of the closest. I have seen news reports about atheists that got cashiered for trying to get any and all references to god removed from the program.

Now whether you agree with the decisions or not is irrelevant. BSA has a standard based on principles(whether you share those is again irrelevant) and is refusing to yield those standards. They are a private organization and the Supreme Court has ruled they may set their standards as they see fit. If you don't share their principles you have no right to enforce yours on them just as they have no right to enforce theirs on you.
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2011, 11:24:04 PM »

I do not admire the BSA very much given their recent membership practices, and I think they do their scouts a great disservice by fostering bigotry as a result.  But I do not hate them.  We should be careful about mistaking ill will for hatred.

Full Disclosure: I was an aviation explorer as well as a CAP cadet.

Im just wondering what kind of bad membership practices that BSA uses? I have never heard of that and am just curious.

No gays...no atheists.

I have never seen those enforced anywhere at a BSA activity/meeting in my life.

I have seen news reports about an Eagle Scout who became a Scouter and got his bird revoked and his membership terminated when he came out of the closest. I have seen news reports about atheists that got cashiered for trying to get any and all references to god removed from the program.

Now whether you agree with the decisions or not is irrelevant. BSA has a standard based on principles(whether you share those is again irrelevant) and is refusing to yield those standards. They are a private organization and the Supreme Court has ruled they may set their standards as they see fit. If you don't share their principles you have no right to enforce yours on them just as they have no right to enforce theirs on you.

Well said.
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2011, 11:29:26 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.

Comparing whats been stated here on the board to your example is a straw man argument.  I don't think anyone on this board thinks its okay to force your principles on someone else. 


My opinions are my own, and I don't try to push them on anyone, nor do I expect to be compared to those that do.


To summarize,

The BSA is an organization with a rich background and an ambitions goal.  Not much unlike our organization. They have numerous dedicated volunteers that spend long hours to make their organization run.  However, there membership practices are discriminatory in nature, this is where many secular individuals find fault with their organization.  What does that mean?  Nothing, it means that those who's principles fall in line with the BSA will find fulfillment, and those who don't will find fulfillment elsewhere. 

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2011, 11:34:03 PM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.


Actually it is exactly what has happened to the BSA for years.  And year after year they win many more than they lose.  The losses will eventually become wins because the BSA has the will and the way to enforce their standards all the way to the Supreme Court.
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2011, 11:55:54 PM »

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2011, 11:58:46 PM »

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.

Don't even get me started on the Girl Scouts.  They are POLAR opposites of the BSA.  Baden-Powell is probably rolling over in his grave.
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2011, 12:10:09 AM »

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

That's a pretty good idea and pretty much sums up the adolescent mind. I was just curious where the specific beef is so to speak. I don't hear anyone ripping into the Girl Scouts for example.

Because we don't want to risk them not selling us any cookies.

I would die without my annual thin mints binge.
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2011, 12:14:37 AM »

Interesting. People are reviled for sticking to their beliefs. I find this disturbing.

This reminds me of the group that's suing a number of people because they won't allow homosexual marriages on their property. The group suing shopped over thirty businesses until they found someone that wouldn't do it, then proceeded to sue.

So much for that freedom to choose and practice your own beliefs. Someone doesn't like your beliefs, they sue you in an attempt to force you to accomodate theirs. What a wonderfully disgusting downhill slide. Everybody has rights, as long as they don't interfere with yours.

I think there is a far cry between acknowledging that something is discriminatory or intolerant, and trying to sue them to change.

Comparing whats been stated here on the board to your example is a straw man argument.  I don't think anyone on this board thinks its okay to force your principles on someone else. 


My opinions are my own, and I don't try to push them on anyone, nor do I expect to be compared to those that do.


To summarize,

The BSA is an organization with a rich background and an ambitions goal.  Not much unlike our organization. They have numerous dedicated volunteers that spend long hours to make their organization run.  However, there membership practices are discriminatory in nature, this is where many secular individuals find fault with their organization.  What does that mean?  Nothing, it means that those who's principles fall in line with the BSA will find fulfillment, and those who don't will find fulfillment elsewhere. 

As for the OP's original question along the lines of "why do CAP people make fun of the BSA?", thats easy, Why does anybody make fun of anything? Because it's different, or someone had a bad experience with it, but mostly because it's different.  Doesn't make it right, but there you go.

The original post had nothing to do with fun being poked at BSA. The O.P. asked why BSA was hated. The question is well answered in the reflexive views posted above. BSA is reviled by secular humanists, because BSA has the temerity to stick to a set of objective values. In a test of one value system against another, the secular humanist will use his moral relativism to dance over the question of "intolerance", Not accepting the obvious paradox that intolerance of Judeo-Christian values is in and of itself, intolerance, his political test of "morality" is incapable of producing a rational explanation. The Secular Humanist philosophy does indeed "hate" the Boy Scouts, who represent a belief system that incorporates moral absolutes. This fetish for "tolerance" is fundamentally a transparent attempt to reshape Christian morality into something more appealing to the Secular Humanist. They hope to restructure the Judeo-Christian belief system into a more "tolerant" and non-judgmental philosophy, free from any moral restraint that may interfere with their goal of creating a more comfortable environment for behaviors on the outsides of the Bell Curve of human behavior.

Secondly, Secular Humanists just hate the idea of God, which conflicts with their more enlightened and modern beliefs. FYI, Boy Scouts don't have to believe in "God" : only acknowledge that there is a "Creator" ( Naturally, there is no one to determine if they are telling the truth-how could you really know? People lie. )  One would think that this is not too high a bar, so why does the secular humanist philosophy hate the concept of a "creator"? The answer is in the documentation of our founding: A blanket statement that our natural rights were endowed upon us by our creator. No creator? QED; No natural human rights!

We constantly hear these arguments from people who may not even understand the belief system that they champion. Everything Good is Evil is their slogan. Boy Scouts? Bad! America? Bad! Apple pie? Bad! Christian Morality? Bad! Employers? Evil! Morality? No such animal!

BSA has had the guts to fight for their beliefs, and to defend their organization with every fiber of their being. When its time to stand up and fight, do you want to be with BSA or NAMBLA?

Major Lord
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2011, 12:22:47 AM »

Judeo-Christian?

Here is the ACTUAL stance and policy:

BSA Religious Principles
(Reprinted from the 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions.)

The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America:

   1. Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.
       
   2. Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association.
       
   3. Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices.
       
   4. If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations.

Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

I know people who would be called "pagan" by most who practice a god is the Earth, the earth is God type of faith who are very open about it and VERY active in the BSA.

To some it up, to belong to the BSA you can't believe we are just a big accidental arrangement of sub-atomic particles..... That is it.
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2011, 12:25:37 AM »

I would die without my annual thin mints binge.

^
This. x 10
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2011, 12:43:56 AM »


The original post had nothing to do with fun being poked at BSA. The O.P. asked why BSA was hated.
How about we let the OP decide what he was asking..  He did seem satisfied with my answer, if it wasn't the case, then you are right:
 
Quote
The question is well answered in the reflexive views posted above.

Quote

BSA is reviled by some secular humanists,
fixed it for you
Quote
because BSA has the temerity to stick to a set of objective values. In a test of one value system against another, the secular humanist will use his moral relativism to dance over the question of "intolerance", Not accepting the obvious paradox that intolerance of Judeo-Christian values is in and of itself, intolerance, his political test of "morality" is incapable of producing a rational explanation. The Secular Humanist philosophy does indeed "hate" the Boy Scouts, who represent a belief system that incorporates moral absolutes. This fetish for "tolerance" is fundamentally a transparent attempt to reshape Christian morality into something more appealing to the Secular Humanist. They hope to restructure the Judeo-Christian belief system into a more "tolerant" and non-judgmental philosophy, free from any moral restraint that may interfere with their goal of creating a more comfortable environment for behaviors on the outsides of the Bell Curve of human behavior.
I like how you try to put words in my mouth.  I have stated repeatedly that I do not hate the BSA.  I have no interest in reshaping their values, nor do most people who share the same view as my own.  A true secular individual could care less about where the values came from, whether it was from The Bible, The Q'ran, Mein Kampf, or a Clifford the big red dog book.  I don't care where it came from, I don't care that it's in use.  I just don't agree with it.  I am not out in the trenches with big signs or contacting lawyers of the ACLU, because I don't care what your beliefs are. 

Its clear that the BSA does not want me, and I do not want them.  Their loss, not mine.  There is no reason to start a war over it.

Quote
Secondly, Secular Humanists just hate the idea of God, which conflicts with their more enlightened and modern beliefs. FYI, Boy Scouts don't have to believe in "God" : only acknowledge that there is a "Creator" ( Naturally, there is no one to determine if they are telling the truth-how could you really know? People lie. )  One would think that this is not too high a bar, so why does the secular humanist philosophy hate the concept of a "creator"? The answer is in the documentation of our founding: A blanket statement that our natural rights were endowed upon us by our creator. No creator? QED; No natural human rights!
Here you go making my argument up for me again.
A secular individual does not hate God.  A secular individual simply just does not believe in Him.  A common misconseption I'm sure.  But again that argument is neither here nor there, and only a thread lock is whats waiting if it goes that way.  I encourage you to PM me if you wish to discover the issue between secular vs. religious beliefs.

Quote
We constantly hear these arguments from people who may not even understand the belief system that they champion. Everything Good is Evil is their slogan. Boy Scouts? Bad! America? Bad! Apple pie? Bad! Christian Morality? Bad! Employers? Evil! Morality? No such animal!

BSA has had the guts to fight for their beliefs, and to defend their organization with every fiber of their being. When its time to stand up and fight, do you want to be with BSA or NAMBLA?

Major Lord

Nothing like an "if you don't like us you're a child molester" statement to round out a solid argument.


and for the record, I LOVE apple pie.
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2011, 01:07:13 AM »

The Composite Squadron I commanded prior to my current assignment was dual chartered.  These were great times.  We work well with them and did lots of joint activities.  I will not bad mouth them for stand for those that would do it.

I went so far as to see where we could best provide services to on another.  I got the BSA Boy Scout Requirements and began matching them up to our SQTR forms and started basing out camp outs and fly-ins to cover both.  We also did the reverse...provided help to the local scouts for their badges in a number of activities...aviation and communications.

When our unit "split," we fell out of regular communication.  We will explore it again soon, however.

There was one issue, however, that is worth of note.  We were a Venture Crew and there was a Troop affiliated with us of which our then DCC encouraged CAP members to join some Scout also wished to join CAP.   The issue was this... We had some that were "more cadets that scouts" and some that were "more scout than cadet."  The prior did not really get into scout advancements...something that the then DCC grew frustrated with to some degree.  I could understand...they had joined CAP and were dedicated to it...scouts were an "after effect" and "back burner" thing.  The later did the same with CAP becoming "airmen for life" while making advancements in scouts.   They were good ES cadets, but rarely lifted a metaphorical finger to do leadership or aerospace education.

"Cadet Scouts" would never memorize the Scout LAW and OATH...more frustration.

My opinion is, if we had sat down and had a guide for CAP VENTURE CREWS (we felt like we were "making it up as we went," (the relationship part) since no one in the local BSA knew how to help/guide us and no one in the CAP official channels had any "template" for us.

I would still, however, like to see if I could help make the template.


One the Scouts and their polices...(OPINION)

Here is the thing...organizations have rules they follow.  If membership in those organizations are not "MANDATORY," then they may hold these certain rules.  Suppose a Southern Baptist wants to join the KNIGHTS of COLUMBUS...an Roman Catholic Organization restricted to Catholics.

The Ogden YWCA has been disaffiliated from the national group because local members voted last month to allow men full membership, officials say.  Should not a man have full privileges in said organization under the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause?  What's more, its a Title IX issue...potentially?

Perhaps the USAF is violating rights because it does not allow the blind and deaf to train and become fighter pilots?  What about Title I?

The ridiculous aside...the BSA has it rules which are known in advance to those that would join.  That is the position they take on those matters.

I have no problem with Homosexuals or Atheists...I have friends, true good ones, that are numbered among both groups.   I have found, however, that is you address and treat them like "people" instead of labels, you can actually move beyond the intolerance/tolerance issues noted here.   And though I am not a member of said groups, being straight and Roman Catholic...I can live in a world, in organizations and among the communities I inhabit.

Let's be civil about these things.
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2011, 01:11:54 AM »


One the Scouts and their polices...(OPINION)

Here is the thing...organizations have rules they follow.  If membership in those organizations are not "MANDATORY," then they may hold these certain rules.  Suppose a Southern Baptist wants to join the KNIGHTS of COLUMBUS...an Roman Catholic Organization restricted to Catholics.

The Ogden YWCA has been disaffiliated from the national group because local members voted last month to allow men full membership, officials say.  Should not a man have full privileges in said organization under the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause?  What's more, its a Title IX issue...potentially?

Perhaps the USAF is violating rights because it does not allow the blind and deaf to train and become fighter pilots?  What about Title I?

The ridiculous aside...the BSA has it rules which are known in advance to those that would join.  That is the position they take on those matters.

I have no problem with Homosexuals or Atheists...I have friends, true good ones, that are numbered among both groups.   I have found, however, that is you address and treat them like "people" instead of labels, you can actually move beyond the intolerance/tolerance issues noted here.   And though I am not a member of said groups, being straight and Roman Catholic...I can live in a world, in organizations and among the communities I inhabit.

Let's be civil about these things.

Ditto Sparky

TF, MM
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 02:16:25 AM »

As the OP I didn't intend to take this outside the CAP context. I understand and respect the arguments on both sides of the discussion here. I have no problem with the remark about "scouts are good, we need someone to search for." That made me smile. I was just wondering why our cadets, you know the ones we are supposed to be turning into leaders and trying to impart a little positive character to, are always ripping into the BSA? They don't give a rat's FPOC about the political aspect of it nor do I think most even know about it.

As for the Girl Scouts:
They actually sell you cookies? Around here it's like extortion, they could give lessons to the Sopranos... ;D
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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2011, 03:27:32 AM »

As the OP I didn't intend to take this outside the CAP context. I understand and respect the arguments on both sides of the discussion here. I have no problem with the remark about "scouts are good, we need someone to search for." That made me smile. I was just wondering why our cadets, you know the ones we are supposed to be turning into leaders and trying to impart a little positive character to, are always ripping into the BSA? They don't give a rat's FPOC about the political aspect of it nor do I think most even know about it.

As for the Girl Scouts:
They actually sell you cookies? Around here it's like extortion, they could give lessons to the Sopranos... ;D

The only insight I can offer is that it is done from a position of ignorance.  No excuses other than ignorant ideas brought forth by a sense of either 1) false superiority or 2) like so many here (ahem), trying to make disingenuous comparisons between CAP and another clearly different organization.   
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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2011, 03:46:30 AM »

Don't our CAP regulations prevent us from "discriminating" against the folks that BSA policy prohibits from membership?  If so, how does a dual charter work?

I'm not "hating on" the Scouts here.  Once upon a time I was a police explorer (BSA run) and later a cub scout and webelos leader when my boys were scouts.  However I am curious how dual chartered units reconcile what seems, on the surface, to be mutually exclusive policies.
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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2011, 03:50:39 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2011, 04:05:50 AM »

You still have to pay dues to both organizations.

This is true...and I also think it outlines the "effect" I pointed out in the other thread.  If one started focused on CAP (paid financial and emotional investment dues), then that one might tend to downplay the Venture Crew elements (which they paid financial dues to, but might just see it as a camping opportunity instead of a place to be advancing in a "program")
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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2011, 04:28:35 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
That seems odd.  Do they participate even if they don't qualify for BSA membership?  If so, aren't they de facto BSA members, possibly in violation of BSA rules?  Would they be covered by any applicable BSA insurance if an activity is run on the scouting side? 

But why pay the BSA side if you can't participate in scout activities?  You have to pay, but you can't play today because you are "different."  Does that equal discrimination?

We tend to think of the cadets when discussing BSA, but how does all this affect adult leaders in dual chartered unit?

I tend to be a chicken little, thinking of potential pitfalls.  This situation strikes me as one that just hasn't blown up yet. 
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2011, 04:36:03 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
That seems odd.  Do they participate even if they don't qualify for BSA membership?  If so, aren't they de facto BSA members, possibly in violation of BSA rules?  Would they be covered by any applicable BSA insurance if an activity is run on the scouting side? 

But why pay the BSA side if you can't participate in scout activities?  You have to pay, but you can't play today because you are "different."  Does that equal discrimination?

We tend to think of the cadets when discussing BSA, but how does all this affect adult leaders in dual chartered unit?

I tend to be a chicken little, thinking of potential pitfalls.  This situation strikes me as one that just hasn't blown up yet.

The "joint" activities we did were basically "squadron" activities.  We did not integrate into the SCOUT activities per se, but did them parallel and, with some interaction, under strict CAP supervision.

We did some camp cooking, tent work, camping (these are airport "fly ins" where we stayed the night at the airport...with all due Cadet Protection Policy considerations...and conducted O-Flights the next morning) and orienteering.  I, as well as Squadron Commander of the Composite Unit, was the Assistant Crew Adult Leader and the DCC, who was a big time SCOUT MASTER and Eagle Scout, was  the Crew Leader.

We were covered...in a way...by both the BSA policy as well as the CAP Safety Protocols.  Additionally, when we would use Camp Karankawa, one paid a minimum fee to the BSA for some sort of temporary insurance indemnity/ coverage. 
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2011, 04:41:46 AM »

I think what wazzafuzz is trying to get at, is how a gay or atheist member would integrate with a dual chartered squadron.  Would they be unable to participate in activities that are covered by the BSA?, or are venture crew membership criteria then that of a normal scout?

No alteriar motives, just a genuine question.
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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2011, 04:46:19 AM »

I think what wazzafuzz is trying to get at, is how a gay or atheist member would integrate with a dual chartered squadron.  Would they be unable to participate in activities that are covered by the BSA?, or are venture crew membership criteria then that of a normal scout?

No alteriar motives, just a genuine question.

Venturing involved girls and boys in "high adventure" activities, one could design/custom one's uniform (this allowed CAP Uniforms to serve that purpose), this is an example of one difference...give me a minute to get you proper information on your question for the best answer.  We never encountered this as an issue.

The answer is taking longer that I anticipated.

I do know that BSA does not allow any sort of sexuality to take place at its activities.  A question I might ask is how is one's Heterosexuality or Homosexuality germane to the activity?  In my humble opinion, it should not even be anyone's business.  An organization no more needs to know about one's  MARRIAGE and its STABILITY/INSTABILITY, what I've eaten over the past few days or how much GINGER ALE I consume than it needs to know about someone's sexual orientation.
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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2011, 05:06:26 AM »

I agree, and if there was an instance I would assume that the CC would make choices that are in keeping with our own regulations.  This sitution probably will very rarely if ever be encountered by a squadron.


I guess the answer to this question would be simply, who needs to know anyways?  I don't think there would be a squadron commander in this organization that would throw one of their own members under the bus over something like this.

Thanks for looking anyways, I tried my luck as well and I guess my google fu stilll needs some honing.
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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2011, 06:39:17 AM »

Well, we are CAP, our unit is dual chartered, but when you come to us you are joining CAP and the Venturing Crew/Troop depending on what scope you fall under (age, gender, etc). In the five years it's not been an issue for us, no one has raised a word about what they believe or don't believe in, they just fork over the $11 bucks and sign the paper, and get the magazine.

The only thing I can do without is the catalog full of overpriced fund raiser junque. We'd be better off buying first aid kits from Wal*Mart and putting a CAP sticker on the package and telling people exactly how much we paid and why we're doing it. We'd sell 'em for less and still make more money, and the first aid kits would contain more stuff than the others.

(We have not done this, we are not planning on it, it's never been mentioned, I just made it up to show as a comparison for how lame I think those products are)

OTOH, the Boy Scouts do sell good popcorn :)
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2011, 07:33:49 AM »

Conversely, some churches do not allow their members to be Scouts because they view the BSA as a "religious organisation" not in line with their confessional doctrine.

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) - think Rep. Michele Bachmann - is one of those.

http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/january-1996/religious-principles-boy-scouts

So the shoe can be on the other foot.

Disclaimer: I am not WELS, but a member of the more-centrist Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.  We don't have a problem with the Scouts, although I am told we used to years ago.
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« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2011, 08:58:46 AM »

Where as the Mormons use Scouting as their youth program.
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« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2011, 01:46:43 PM »

This has nothing to do with secular humanism, or value judgements. It has everything to do with cultivating attitudes in youths that will not help them in adulthood. The truth is atheism and homosexuality are more accepted in society today than they ever have been, and will continue to be more accepted as time goes on. A youth who is raised to understand these individuals are immoral or "unclean" will find their reputations seriously harmed if/when their behavior as adults reflects this belief.

The BSA's stance on homosexuals and non-religious people is simply not compatible with CAP's core value of respect, and I think it is only a matter of time before this proves to be problematic with dual chartered units.
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« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2011, 03:22:25 PM »

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA, there would be no problem with discriminating against a "religious" organization (like BSA)  If it is a para-governmental organization that decides as a policy that BSA is incompatible with merely associating with CAP, than it is only a matter of time until it is taken to its logical ending: The abolition of the Chaplain Corp.

 CAP does not have any issues with homosexuality ( Since clearly, homosexuals are well represented in CAP at the highest levels). Or even Atheism ( Although I think you should demand an Atheist Chaplain!)  The problem with Secular Humanism is that those indoctrinated in their beliefs are under the impression that they have no religious or faith-based beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Atheism is not the absence of a belief in deism: it is a competing philosophy that views religions as harmful ( as your hostility to religion well-demonstrates) . Atheism is a faith-based belief system  in that there is no acceptable evidence for or against the basic supposition of the existence of god. Secular Humanism is a belief system that replaces religion in Marxist ideology, and is used to transition the simple minded to eventual atheism. (Or really a belief that the State is "God")  During the transition phase, the Secular Humanist has the "freedom" to accept pseudo-religious beliefs, like naturism, Gaia Worship, or a hodgepodge of any beliefs. Notice that I have not called any of you "Secular Humanists". I have only stated that Secular Humanism as a religion, "hates" BSA. If you choose to defend their position, it does not make you one of them, but one can infer that you are sympathetic to their aims.

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended)  may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

As to the issue of the values of the organizations, how many scandals (including sexual scandals)  does CAP have in the central leadership compared to the BSA? For BSA's purposes, their standards for personnel have proven to be remarkably and pragmatically successful. Like all youth organizations, CAP and BSA have pederasts and other unwholesome types ( criminals, Amway sales people, etc.)  that infiltrate the group for their own purposes, but this issue is entirely separate from the issue of either Atheism or Homosexuality.

As a corporate paradigm, CAP is much more like the Girl Scouts than the Boy Scouts in philosophy. The corporate success of BSA versus GSA is self-evident. I am certainly NOT suggesting that we turn CAP over to the Chaplains to run, as a Sharia-based cadet program. But I do believe that hostility to BSA on the grounds that have been expressed represent the most blatant and unreasoned anti-religious biases, and I don't see where this bigotry is helpful to CAP as a Youth Organization or in any other capacity.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
tsrup
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« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:40 PM »

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA,
care to expand on that?
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Hawk200
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« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2011, 04:19:51 PM »

I think a problem here is that people are assuming ill will with a lack of agreement with someone's lifestyle. There's way too much "You don't agree with me, so you hate me." The two are not the same, and it's false, bordering on unethical, to assume such.

I don't agree with homosexuality. That's my personal belief, and it's gonna be really tough for someone if they don't like it. I don't care if someone does, it's not my problem, it's theirs. I am not going to alter my beliefs in order to be like someone else. I am unique as a person and in my beliefs and that is my right.

I strongly believe that the issue is between that person and God, and I have no place passing any form of judgement on them. It's not my place. I will not discriminate against someone that is homosexual. If I had a homosexual in my unit, they wouldn't be treated any differently than any heterosexual would be. I would provide the same assistance to all personnel, be it decorations, courses, training, promotions, mentoring, etc. I wouldn't begrudge anyone anything for their sexual preference.

I do have a problem with people that want to flaunt their homosexuality. I've had people that knew I was military, and assumed that being so, I hated them for being homosexual. I have actually been challenged with the statement of "I'm gay!" and replied with "I'm straight. So what?" That has been followed with "Oh, you think you're so much better than me because you're straight!?" I walk away, or completely ignore the person after that. They're looking for a fight, and I've got better things to do with my time.

Strangely enough, I've gotten a great deal of support from other homosexuals that don't make a point of defining themselves as gay. They feel that the blatant ones are causing more issues with acceptance than the "prudish" heterosexuals. Many of them have been good friends. We've done the intelligent thing, and just not discussed the issues that we differ greatly on. If someone has an issue working with a person that is homosexual, then they do have a problem.

One can have disagreeing beliefs and still work well with others.
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FW
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« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2011, 04:43:24 PM »

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended) may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

Major Lord

Of the hundreds of thousand former cadets, there are thousands who have become successful adults, who credit the program with their success.  That you can't think of many is due more to our lack of a good marketing strategy.  There are currently 3 very successful former cadets sitting on the BoG.  I know of a former CSAF who was a cadet, a couple of astronauts, generals, numerous corporate heads, congressmen, judges, physicans, a Rhodes Scholar....
 
I surely hope you are not implying the CAP cadet program is not successful in instilling values...
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tsrup
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« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA, there would be no problem with discriminating against a "religious" organization (like BSA)
But we aren't, so discrimination is not only not in our credos, but expressly forbidden by regulation.
Quote
  If it is a para-governmental organization that decides as a policy that BSA is incompatible with merely associating with CAP, than it is only a matter of time until it is taken to its logical ending: The abolition of the Chaplain Corp.
I fail to see that leap.  If one were to compare our institution to the military (an organization that also does not discriminate based on culture, creed, and recently: sexual orientation) and they have a very strong Chaplain Corps.  Ours is strong as well, and chaplains have an integral roll as counselors and strong shoulders stand upon.  I have no problem conferring with a chaplain, as that is their job, that is what they are very effective at.  Religion is their tool.  I no more care that they use religion to accomplish their mission no more than I care if my roofer uses a hammer or a nail gun.  All I ask is that my head stays dry.

I respect our chaplains for the work that they do for our organization and for the personal commitment they put to their work.

The chaplain corps is not going anywhere, especially with the support that those individuals do for the Active Duty Military.

The act of distancing ourselves from an organization that does not fit into our own organization ethos does not equate to CAP distancing itself from religion.   
Quote
CAP does not have any issues with homosexuality ( Since clearly, homosexuals are well represented in CAP at the highest levels). Or even Atheism ( Although I think you should demand an Atheist Chaplain!)  The problem with Secular Humanism is that those indoctrinated in their beliefs are under the impression that they have no religious or faith-based beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Atheism is not the absence of a belief in deism: it is a competing philosophy that views religions as harmful ( as your hostility to religion well-demonstrates) . Atheism is a faith-based belief system  in that there is no acceptable evidence for or against the basic supposition of the existence of god. Secular Humanism is a belief system that replaces religion in Marxist ideology, and is used to transition the simple minded to eventual atheism. (Or really a belief that the State is "God")  During the transition phase, the Secular Humanist has the "freedom" to accept pseudo-religious beliefs, like naturism, Gaia Worship, or a hodgepodge of any beliefs. Notice that I have not called any of you "Secular Humanists". I have only stated that Secular Humanism as a religion, "hates" BSA. If you choose to defend their position, it does not make you one of them, but one can infer that you are sympathetic to their aims.
The above is a fundamental misunderstanding in the meaning of "Atheism", and "Secular Humanism".

I'll break it down barney style.

athe·ist noun \ˈā-thē-ist\
Definition of ATHEIST

: one who believes that there is no deity

or we'll even explore the root of the word.
The prefix "a-" meaning "without", and "theism" meaning belief in a deity.  Put together is simply "without belief in a deity".  No where is there anything about attacking religion, and at no time have I or myself attacked religion.  You brought religion into this argument.  Not I.

for the second part
"Secular Humansim"
Is simply the act of not taking anything on faith.  Which means that a secular humanist weighs everything against evidence to make decisions.  This fundamentally refutes your idea that it is a system of faith  Your comparison to Marxism is unfounded.  Yes, Marxist socialists do not believe in god, but Secular Humanists are not marxists.  I'm glad that this time you've at least elevated Secular Humanists relations from that of a child molester.  I'm interested to see what group you flailing try to associate us with next.

I'll save you the trouble.  Secular Humanists are all around you.  The don't make judgements based on your religion, and they are often quite about their beliefs.  Just as with every other belief system, or lack thereof, there is a vocal minority that makes trouble for everyone else.  For the most part, we're just everyday people, with no agenda other than trying to better ourselves.  No different than the people that do that with religion.  We're not better or worse, just different.  We're not unethical, or immoral.  So maybe we do have faith, we have faith in our own capacity for reason and morality. 

Quote
Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended)  may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

As to the issue of the values of the organizations, how many scandals (including sexual scandals)  does CAP have in the central leadership compared to the BSA? For BSA's purposes, their standards for personnel have proven to be remarkably and pragmatically successful. Like all youth organizations, CAP and BSA have pederasts and other unwholesome types ( criminals, Amway sales people, etc.)  that infiltrate the group for their own purposes, but this issue is entirely separate from the issue of either Atheism or Homosexuality.
I agree, the BSA as a program is widely successful, no one is doubting that.  No one is doubting that CAP is fundamentally different.  And I agree, a criminal is a criminal regardless of the organization that he/she associates with and should be accountable and judged for their own actions.

Quote
As a corporate paradigm, CAP is much more like the Girl Scouts than the Boy Scouts in philosophy. The corporate success of BSA versus GSA is self-evident. I am certainly NOT suggesting that we turn CAP over to the Chaplains to run, as a Sharia-based cadet program. But I do believe that hostility to BSA on the grounds that have been expressed represent the most blatant and unreasoned anti-religious biases, and I don't see where this bigotry is helpful to CAP as a Youth Organization or in any other capacity.

Major Lord
There is no hostility toward the BSA by CAP as an organization, and our regulations are pretty clear on what is tolerated in respect to discrimination or bigotry.  What was stated is how there might be a conflict between their organization ethos and our regulation.
A conflict that has been really just stated as not worth worrying about.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not hate religion, or hate the BSA (quite the opposite), you will just not find me at their meetings.
It is not my intent to attack anyones affiliations, beliefs, or principles.


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davidsinn
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« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2011, 05:02:29 PM »

I must say that even though this is a heated topic, everyone has played nice with each other and has upheld the Respect core value. Good job.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2011, 05:08:58 PM »

Worrying about an organization you are not a part of and which does not affect you is wasted time and energy.

If they are on my lawn, I'll address it, usually with the hose.

If they pass out a flyer at the mall I don't agree with, I will ignore it.

If I look into joining and they espouse a point of view that is radically different than mine, or precludes my participation, I
cross them off my G-A-S list and move on.

If they have some areas I don't agree with but can still find common ground for cooperation, I will do my best to everyone's
advantage, and hope the Karma points work in my favor when I do dumb things like walk alone down Paradise Blvd South from
Sahara back to my hotel at 10:00 at night.

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Major Lord
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« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2011, 05:09:18 PM »

Travis and Nathan,

Eventually, the Mods shut down discussions like this, so I will let it go, and stand by the statement that Secular Humanism as a pseudo-religion  is the primary ideological enemy of BSA; Its not Amway, or the PTA or MADD that wants Scouts to change to fit their ideology. I agree with you that Atheism and Secular Humanism are very different things. Atheism as a philosophy is far more nuanced than just not believing that there is a deity. It is an "active" philosophy and quite different that the more "passive" and intellectually open philosophy of agnosticism.  I am not trying to convince you or Nathan that there is a "God", not to worry. ( Heck, I could not convince Nathan that an aircraft could take off on a treadmill-as I recall, he had a faith-based belief that the wheels would have to accelerate to "Infinity".) Between you and Nathan, you have described the religious beliefs of BSA  as bigoted and incompatible with CAP, and that we (CAP ) would eventually come to our senses and repudiate BSA. Maybe this is not hatred, but it has the earmarks of hatred. BSA has plenty of volunteers, and your belief system is much more CAP-like anyway, so I am sure that they can get by without you and you will do well with CAP. We are critters of entirely different species, and my arguments go to a happy relation between the groups,  not an ideological schism.

Major Lord
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Major Lord
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« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2011, 05:22:36 PM »

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended) may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

Major Lord

Of the hundreds of thousand former cadets, there are thousands who have become successful adults, who credit the program with their success.  That you can't think of many is due more to our lack of a good marketing strategy.  There are currently 3 very successful former cadets sitting on the BoG.  I know of a former CSAF who was a cadet, a couple of astronauts, generals, numerous corporate heads, congressmen, judges, physicans, a Rhodes Scholar....
 
I surely hope you are not implying the CAP cadet program is not successful in instilling values...

Col. Fred,

Not at all! CAP is very successful in generating leaders, even though our emphasis on morals (or ethics, now that we have abandoned the term morals)  is not nearly so, well, emphatic, as BSA. We just have far, far fewer people we send through the complete system. We have less than a couple of thousand Spaatzen in our entire history, where Scouts have produced zillions ( or thereabouts) of Eagle Scouts. I hope that our ratios are actually higher for success than you estimate; Thousands of successes out of hundreds of thousands is not so good! I agree that our marketing is unremarkable.


Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
FW
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« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2011, 05:39:41 PM »

^Thanks for the clarification.  If we marketed ourselves better, I could give you a better estimate on our "Character Development" success.... >:D
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« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2011, 08:36:50 PM »

Jumping on this wagon late, but...

I have a lot of respect for the Scouts.  I joined the Cub Scouts in kindergarten and stayed in all the way through Boy Scouts till I turned 18.  Everything that is the foundation for my CAP cadet success came from the BSA.  I was learning to be an effective leader as my troops SPL (Senior Patrol Leader, C/CC equivalent) long before I even knew what CAP was.  And all of my outdoors skills and knowledge that I use in ES are a direct result of spending at least one weekend a month (usually two) out camping with my troop.  And where else could I go with a bunch of my friends and bike across the entire state of Wisconsin (Mississippi R. to Lake Michigan)?

The quality of the program is directly proportional to the effort put in by troop leadership.  If the troop has poor leadership, its a poor program.  But the right people in the right place can make a hive of learning and growth.  When I'd tell my non-BSA friends that I was in Scouts they'd usually say something to the effect of "Isn't scouts gay?" and I'd promptly reply with "Why?  Its the best time of my life.  I'm out camping every month, I'm away from my parents most weekends, and while you're sitting around doing nothing I'm out fishing and having fun."  Showing confidence in the program and myself usually shut them up.

I agree that the bigotry needs to leave the program.  I was able to fly under the radar but lets just say that if I had made it to an Eagle board I'd have had to lie my way through it.

Some say that everything they need to know they learned in kindergarten.  I say that everything I need to know I learned in Scouts.
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caphornbuckle
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« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2011, 05:21:04 AM »

There's a couple of things that should probably be explained about scouting.

First of all a Boy Scout Troop isn't, technically, "owned" by the Boy Scouts of America as a CAP unit belongs to CAP.  The Troop is actually "owned" by the Chartered Organization.  This kind of keeps the Boy Scouts of America as an organization free from *some* liabilities.  A troop who has a charter from a specific religious organization (which most are) must also agree to the policies that that organization sets for the troop.

All the money, equipment, and other items that belong to a troop actually belongs to the Chartered Organization and they can do with it as they please.  If a BSA Troop has a fundraiser and makes a killing off of it, the Chartered Organization can take that money and use it for whatever they want to with it.  It does not have to go back to the Troop, but it generally does.

The Boy Scouts are not there to teach some of the things people would expect.  For the most part, it teaches boys to be men who can be of service to others.  There really is no military-style of discipline.  We expect our boys to be boys as well.  We allow them time to have fun and be kids.  In public, they are not going to be as disciplined as a CAP cadet but they should be disciplined enough to know how to act while in uniform and representing the BSA (which is also fading away, in my opinion).

I am currently a Troop Committee Member, Cub Scout Den Leader, CAP Member,  even a Girl Scout Leader (3 daughters), and an Eagle Scout (1994).  I was a CAP cadet and a Boy Scout at the same time and have done a few things with both organizations involved at the same time.  There really was no love/hate relationship at the time that I noticed.  It was all of us getting the jobs done that we were tasked with and do them to the best of our abilities.
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Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP
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« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2011, 03:36:04 PM »

My experience is that when a senior applies to a university or a job and states that he is an Eagle Scout, everyone goes like "wow!"...but if the same senior states that he is a Spaatz, everyone goes like "waatz?" Maybe the CAP should spend some time$ in marketing the profile of a Spaatz cadet, making in known by the general public. As mentioned earlier, both organizations are great but with different styles. As for me, Spaatz is far beyond Eagle Scout, more training, more preparation, more discipline, the Spaatz is monitored by USAF while Eagle Scout is monitored by the Scout Master (who often is the father or family member of the Eagle candidate) Not saying that it is always and everywhere like this. Certainly, Spaatz is more objective, credible and demanding than Eagle. Do you want to bet? go to a service academy and put in line 10 Eagles plebe, on another line put 10 Spaatz plebe. Let them do their thing for 10 minutes and you will see a heavens to earth difeference.
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« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2011, 04:01:39 PM »

I think that the comparison is not useful. There have been approximately 2 million Eagle Scouts and approximately 2000 Spaatz Cadets.  There is a large degree of overlap between Spaatzen who are cross-dressers ( Boy Scouts and CAP) . You suggest that Spaatz may be be better at military academy assimilation, and I am sure you are right. Knowing how to march, wear and care of a uniform, and military customs and courtesies, etc. would sure make a plebe slightly less likely to  slam an important body part in the proverbial door. CAP is a paramilitary organization ( yes, I know many of you hate that word...) and although the commie  in "Red Dawn" viewed Eagle Scouts as "Elite paramilitary trainees", BSA is not in that business.  I have always found the idea that the Mitchell Award is equivalent to the Eagle; Eagle is a much bigger commitment, but as the Dad of a Spaatzen, I can assure you that the Spaatz can be MUCH harder than Eagle. I agree that the Spaatz is more objective, but there is a tremendous variability into how much an beyond the objective standard an Eagle may go. His community project for instance, may be to repaint a few mailboxes for the elderly, or he may choose to slay all the man eating grizzly bears in Alaska with a number 2 pencil.

Major Lord
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caphornbuckle
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« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2011, 11:29:24 PM »

Eagle Scout is monitored by the Scout Master (who often is the father or family member of the Eagle candidate)

I believe there is a misunderstanding about this part.  There is a number of people involved in a troop that monitor a scout's advancement.

The requirements for Merit Badges are handled by a Merit Badge Counselor and must be completed to his/her satisfaction in order to be awarded.  The Scoutmaster does not handle this part of the leg work (or shouldn't)

In order to achieve rank in scouting, a scout must also complete a Scoutmaster Conference.  Then he must complete a Board of Review by the Troop Committee for the rank he is to receive.  The Board does not include the Scoutmaster either (or shouldn't).

For the Eagle Board of Review, a representative from the District (similar to Groups in CAP) convenes people either within or outside of Boy Scouts to participate.

It is very possible that a parent be Scoutmaster and have some pull with their boy's advancement.  But that would degrade the whole purpose and spirit of scouting as well as violate several of the Scout Laws.

Considering this is a CAP discussion group, I would encourage anyone not familiar with the BSA to use their Goggle-fu and look at what it takes to make Eagle.  Start with the "Scout" Rank and progress all through the others to Eagle.  Then look at the requirements for some of the Merit Badges, especially those required for Eagle.

I won't compare the Eagle to the Spaatz because they are both VERY different.  Both are hard to achieve and both should be recognized for the hard work and dedication they deserve.

Eagle may be the highest rank, but it isn't the stopping point for most Boy Scouts who earn it either.  There are still more advancements available above that.

Just a little educational briefing on the BSA!  :)
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Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP
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« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2011, 06:48:38 PM »

Perhaps I should redirect my critic to the people that are not related to the programs and give preference to Eagles over Spaatz based on ignorance. Personally, if I meet an Eagle he would have my respect, but it would not to the same level as the respect that I would pay to a Spaatz Cadet.  I can say that both programs are great. Some kids do not like CAP but make outstanding progress in BSA and vice versa. No intention to make an out of order comparison, just an opinion. My point of view on how I see both programs having been in both of them.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2011, 07:50:48 PM »

Well that could be true for anything.

People know what "eagle scout" means and they have some sort of idea what it takes to get it....and that equates to some level of respect.
People don't know what a "spaatz cadets" means and so they don't have any preconceived ideas about it.

Anyone know what a Vigil Honor is?
Withing the community of the Boy Scouts it is a high honor.....outside of boy scouts....not many know what it is.

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"
Now John Doe, MD or John Doe, PhD....those mean something to  me.

Either way......if you are collecting certs or ranks in BSA or CAP for respect......I think you have missed the point of programs.

If you think the "problem" is that no one knows what Spaatz means and does not garner the same name recognition of Eagle Scout......the fix is simple.  Get more people into CAP and get more people to Spaatz.

The BSA earns their name recognition thought 100 years of pumping boys their their program.  They developed their program in such a way that it is fairly easy to achieve withing the six year window of opportunity.

IMHO CAP just does not do that as well.  They don't recruit soon enough.  They don't cycle their recruiting with the school year, they set the expectations of what a Spaatz too high for most people to complete it while they are still in high school.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2011, 08:24:03 PM »

Certainly the purpose of both programs should not be just to gather recognition, rather, to obtain character development. But obtaining recognition is not a bad thing. Let's be realistic here...obtaining that prize and using it for college and job applications is the engine that powers thousands of scouts to go for the Eagle. Eagle recognition is the result of 100 years in the making but by 1960 anyone knew what an Eagle was across the nation. CAP cadet program has been around for over 60 years in the making and it's about time that when a young cadet obtain his/her Spaatz be recognized where ever he/she goes with a resume or college application. Most often, it is a parents decision if the kid goes to BSA or CAP, and the parents usually make that decision based on the kid's future and what can he obtain from the experience to be used later. So far, our Spaatz is not as marketable as BSA's Eagle among parents. Hence my recommendation to CAP to do something.
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« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2011, 08:24:56 PM »

I would agree with about 90% of Lordmonars' assertions, although I don't think we ought to dumb-down the Spaatz award just to improve our numbers. They are a pretty rarefied group, and I would hate to see the value of the award diluted. I wonder how many Spaatz actually make it before graduating from High School? I would guess that most are the far side of the legal smoking age. (Maybe the Spaatzengruppen  have some stats on this? ) Also, I think that trying to market the Spaatz as comparable to the Eagle is not in our (CAP's) best interest; It should stand or fall on its own gravitas. 

I know, and I am sure many of you know, cadets who joined CAP with a very single minded intention to win the Spaatz award. This may or may not result in the most rounded CAP "career", but as a means to an end ( i.g., trying to gain brownie points towards a service academy) it may be just fine. Many kids join scouts with that same single minded determination to gain the Eagle, or win every merit badge, and as most high-performing kids are these days, they have a pretty busy calendar, and have to husband their time and personal resources to further their life goals. I don't see any conflict between between the goals of BSA and CAP, but its pretty clear that we are so dissimilar as to make comparisons between the two nearly pointless. Its like trying to convert Fahrenheit to Kilograms...

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
billford1
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« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2011, 08:35:37 PM »

I have known many members of the Boy Scouts of America. The truth is the BSA are not Haters, and CAP Cadets should not treat them them in a hateful manner IF that is really happening. I'm fairly sure the majority of CAP Cadet Leaders do demonstrate good leadership attributes like civility the same as they would with JROTC Cadets, Sea Scout Cadets or Young Marines.  Our Squadron has a number of Scouts who participate in Venture Crew as part of a CAP activity.  As for the BSA and their purported intolerance all I can say is if the ACLU is against them I'm for them.
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Capination
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« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2011, 08:44:13 PM »

I guess that you are right. We are comparing different concepts. Anyways, I've done my job in putting the word out with College and HR recruiters letting them know what being a Spaatz involves and they are, little by little, joining the ranks of Spaatz admirers.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2011, 09:58:57 PM »

I know, and I am sure many of you know, cadets who joined CAP with a very single minded intention to win the Spaatz award. This may or may not result in the most rounded CAP "career", but as a means to an end ( i.g., trying to gain brownie points towards a service academy) it may be just fine. Many kids join scouts with that same single minded determination to gain the Eagle, or win every merit badge, and as most performing kids are these days, they have a pretty busy calendar, and have to husband their time and personal resources to further their life goals. I don't see any conflict between between the goals of BSA and CAP, but its pretty clear that we are so dissimilar as to make comparisons between the two nearly pointless. Its like trying to convert Fahrenheit to Kilograms...

Major Lord

I don't really think that is true.

I know lots of young Scouts (the rank not scouts with a small "s") who are setting their goals for Eagle.
I don't really think we have the same number of young C/Amn setting their sights for Spaatz.

There are a lot of reasons for that:

1.  Lack of examples.  In a healthy BSA troop you may have one or two serving Eagle Scouts and several Life Scouts working on their Eagle.  Even at smaller or isolated troops you will have fairly recent examples of an Eagle Scout or have one in a nearby troop.
In CAP I have been in NVWG since 2006.....in that time there has not been a single Spaatz.  We may have one or two reach Eakker (I can think of 3 in the same time frame) only small hand full of Earharts and Mitchells.  The majority of them disappear at or soon after their 18th birthday.  I see the real goal being set by most cadets is to make their Mitchell.

2.  Time lines.  In BSA there are no time requirements for the first four ranks.  As soon as the scout completes the requirements they earn the rank.  The last three can be completed in 14 months.  The BSA puts the onus of "serving your time" on the higher ranks.  If a sharp scout in a very well run program can shoot through the lower ranks they move him right along.  This makes getting your Eagle Scout an achievable goal by your 18th birthday...and still leaves plenty of time doing specail activities like Jamborees. working on camp staff, working with the Order of the Arrow, working on Leader Development Staff and going to the high adventure bases.
CAP on the other hand is 38 months minimum (that is they get their curry the day they get their CAP ID and get their Spaatz they same day they get their Eakker).  Add in the requirement to go to Encampment, going the RCOS/COS and we spread that time line out.  This makes adding the other activities that we want cadets to do like encampment staff, CAC, NCSAs, NCC, ES, O-rides, only eat up their time to progress through the program.  This all adds up to the perception that Spaatz is not really obtainable.

3.  Eternal Chiefs.  There is a glass barrier in cadet program where progressing beyond chief is not desirable.  All the cool jobs at encampment, NBB, et al are all the NCO jobs.  Getting promoted beyond Chief means I can't drill cadets anymore.  Getting promoted beyond chief means I can't be on color guard anymore.  I want to enlist in the military someday and I get nothing for going beyond Mitchell.  This creates a stop in the progression system.  BSA does not have this.....they have the barrier at Life Scout because it is hard to finish off those last few merit badges and get your Eagle Project done.....not because it is cool to be First Class Scout forever.

4. School, Sports, Work, Cars and Girls.  Both the BSA and CAP have to deal with this.  At the magic age of 16 all bets are off.  Scouts and Cadets quit like flies because they don't have time anymore.  School gets harder.  They get involved with sports.  The get jobs to pay for their cars and take out their girls.  This cuts down our window of opportunity to hook them on the idea of moving on and getting their top rank.  The BSA deals with this by having only 7 steps getting the scouts at "completed the 5th grade and at least 10 years of age" and hopefully having them right there by the time SSWCG kicks in.   In CAP we only have at the most 4 years to do this.  We are locked into our timelines that creates a barrier when SSWCG kicks in.  A 16 year old Chief is going to make his decisions on how far he is going to shoot for.  I see it all the time.  The lower their target to getting the Mitchell and that is it.

These are the main reasons why I feel we don't have more Spaatzs.  I point them out as "problems" but that does not mean they really are.  It is only showing where we would have to make changes if the goals was to increase the number of Spaatzs.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2011, 12:56:44 PM »

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"

There is a reason for doing this, and it usually involves communications between IT people and technical areas of the companies they deal with. For example, if I am e-mailing a request to the Federal Reserve to make a change on our VPN connection, it helps if they know that I understand what multicasting is and if we are using it.

If you don't know what the letters mean, disregard them. :)
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
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JeffDG
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« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2011, 02:28:22 PM »

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"

There is a reason for doing this, and it usually involves communications between IT people and technical areas of the companies they deal with. For example, if I am e-mailing a request to the Federal Reserve to make a change on our VPN connection, it helps if they know that I understand what multicasting is and if we are using it.

If you don't know what the letters mean, disregard them. :)
At one point I counted, and I could put 14 different IT certifications behind my name.  It's like the ribbons in CAP, for outsiders they're just pretty colours on your shirt...to those who know, it's your resume.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2011, 04:58:30 PM »

At one point I counted, and I could put 14 different IT certifications behind my name.  It's like the ribbons in CAP, for outsiders they're just pretty colours on your shirt...to those who know, it's your resume.

To those who really know...heh, well...better left unsaid...
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lordmonar
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« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2011, 06:19:07 PM »

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"

There is a reason for doing this, and it usually involves communications between IT people and technical areas of the companies they deal with. For example, if I am e-mailing a request to the Federal Reserve to make a change on our VPN connection, it helps if they know that I understand what multicasting is and if we are using it.

If you don't know what the letters mean, disregard them. :)
At one point I counted, and I could put 14 different IT certifications behind my name.  It's like the ribbons in CAP, for outsiders they're just pretty colours on your shirt...to those who know, it's your resume.
Well that is my point......to those who know....Spaatz is the beez Kneez.....but to job blow scholorship application clerk......it is "so what".
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2011, 09:57:08 PM »

Well that is my point......to those who know....Spaatz is the beez Kneez.....but to job blow scholorship application clerk......it is "so what".

I think that's all about marketing...Maybe someone can enlighten someone who has never been a boy scout the highlighted difference between a Spaatz cadet and a Eagle Scout...and before people start complaining that they are fundamentally different and can't be compared, I'm just curious about why a "Joe Blow Scholarship Application Clerk" should care about one or the other...and which one is more difficult to achieve?  Just generalities will suffice...thanks
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davidsinn
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« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2011, 10:34:14 PM »

Well that is my point......to those who know....Spaatz is the beez Kneez.....but to job blow scholorship application clerk......it is "so what".

I think that's all about marketing...Maybe someone can enlighten someone who has never been a boy scout the highlighted difference between a Spaatz cadet and a Eagle Scout...and before people start complaining that they are fundamentally different and can't be compared, I'm just curious about why a "Joe Blow Scholarship Application Clerk" should care about one or the other...and which one is more difficult to achieve?  Just generalities will suffice...thanks

They really can't be compared  ;D I'll try but first I will address why the admissions clerk cares about Eagle more than Spaatz. Quite simply it's marketing. The country has been told for decades that an Eagle is a breed apart and we count among our numbers astronauts(James Lovell) and presidents(Gerald Ford).  Do we have any triple diamonds of that caliber to hold up as an example of what it means? The other part of the problem is there have been less than 1800 Spaatz awards since 1964. By contrast there have been 1.7 million Eagles since it's inception in 1912, 52 thousand of those in 2008 alone. Wikipedia gives a pretty good break down of what the Eagle means.

IMHO, all other things being equal, an Eagle is a more rounded person than a Spaatz cadet. The Eagle requires you to learn a large range of skills including volunteer leadership. But wait, don't we teach cadets leadership? Yes we do but it's different in that our cadet leaders order their subordinates. In the BSA you can't do that. You must talk nice. A Spaatz is a singularly driven person but is largely book work type stuff as well as the CPFT.

When was the last time you heard of a Spaatz that had to go before a city council to gain approval to manage a workforce of volunteers to perform a large service project? And then go to businesses and get them to pony up money and materiel?
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David Sinn
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« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2011, 10:42:52 PM »

The country has been told for decades that an Eagle is a breed apart and we count among our numbers astronauts(James Lovell) and presidents(Gerald Ford).  Do we have any triple diamonds of that caliber to hold up as an example of what it means?

Um...yes?  Eric Boe.  And I guarantee you that among high school kids and most adults, neither name means much (and those that
know Lovell believe he looks like Tom Hanks).

I'll leave the rest on the table because it is pretty one-sided. 

The BSA and CAP only look alike from the outside to people who don't know much about either, and trying to compare them is unfair to both.
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arBar
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« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2011, 04:16:39 AM »

Keep in mind the military background and influence of Baden Powell on scouting.  I have heard it said that CAP is the face of the Air Force in many places around the country.  If that's the case (and I'm not sure if I buy that or not), then the BSA is most certainly the face of the military in general for many Americans.

What I mean by that is that for many young Americans, the BSA is the closest thing to the military that they see, as if its a military youth organization.  (1. Uniforms, 2. Ranks, 3. Saluting, etc.) Even though it has military influence, it is still far from it. 

So to answer the question of the OP, I think some CAP folks look down on/hate the BSA because they see it as a perceived competition, and since CAP is the "real" thing, the BSA are "less than".

To be fair, there is no comparison, as has been previously noted.  Different programs with different emphases.

But comparing CAP cadets to the common scout troop members, CAP blows the scouts out of the water when it comes to flag handling and things like that.  This has been my observation as being both an adult scouter and a CAP Senior member.

I love scouting and think its a great program.  My 8 months in CAP so far leave me very impressed with the cadet program also. 

I was in scouting from elementary school til college and never heard of the CAP.  If I had known about it, I certainly would have joined.  But for many young Americans I think they've just never heard of us. 

Maybe if we developed better marketing and had more years of doing so, we'll be better known as well.


 
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« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2011, 09:22:18 PM »

What is the "bigotry" in Scouting mentioned by some posters?  Are the posters talking about problems in the individual Scout units?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2011, 09:27:45 PM »

What is the "bigotry" in Scouting mentioned by some posters?  Are the posters talking about problems in the individual Scout units?

No CAP vs. BSA, etc.
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Dad2-4
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« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2011, 11:33:14 PM »

Being a 30+ year veteran of Scouting, I've seen many things, good and bad, in BSA. One way Spaatz and Eagle are different in some cases is maturity. I've never seen a 13 year old Spaatz cadet. I have, on more than one occassion, seen kids who have no life outside of Scouting, be run through a merit badge mill by his parents, troop, or whomever, complete very weak projects mostly organized and run by adults, and signed off on Eagle Scout at age 13. The he goes off to college listing Eagle on his application with no mention that after Eagle he lost interest in Scouting and hasn't participated in the program since age 14.
So Eagle doesn't mean an outstanding young man in every case.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2011, 12:09:23 AM »

I've never seen a 13 year old Spaatz cadet.

Who wants to be first?    :P
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2011, 03:35:04 AM »

I've never seen a 13 year old Spaatz cadet.

Who wants to be first?    :P

Legend has it that there was one back when you could join younger. Just an old cadet legend though, who knows if it's true.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2011, 05:19:56 AM »

Spaatz #1558 was the youngest cadet to attain the honor (in early 2005).  She completed the third diamond just before
her 14th birthday.  She joined at 10-1/2 through the now closed loophole that some home-schooled cadets
used to join.  The days of "or 6th grade" are gone.

She came from a fairly high-speed family, with her dad an Army officer and her brother making #1548 before her.
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RADIOMAN015
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« Reply #92 on: April 02, 2011, 06:08:10 PM »

Locally BSA has had a lot of consolidations, as you know they have a lot more paid employees than Civil Air Patrol.  They have also been affected by the economy.    BSA is closing a few of their camps in the western part of the state and consolidating to the center of the state.  They were going to try to sell the land those western camps were on BUT found out that the donation deed of the land specifically stated the land would have to be used for BSA activities forever.

Parents in the scouting program were very upset with some of the actions taken by the BSA, without even a warning to all of the troops in the western state area.  So I would suspect there still is some heartburn on this.

I think the BSA programs get media coverage more easily BUT I've found that the local papers will cover CAP events also.  TV wise, 2 out of 3 stations will cover CAP events.

Last year at the Eastern States Exposition (The Big E) they had an information booth and were trying to recruit kids as well as adults.  When I was asked I told them I had absolutely NO interest in their programs since I was committed to other volunteer and personal activities.  (I don't recall telling them I was in CAP).

I don't hate the scouts but I just see it as another youth development program, similar to other programs.  I personally thing they have too many paid personnel for what they really do.

RM         
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cadetchris
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« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2011, 08:55:27 PM »

     Something about the boy scouts;
     They used to be all about good things, and I'm sure there are still some people who live up to the former reputation, but most of what I've seen is a program that is completely run by a few controlling parents, who baby the kids. A recent example: I was at the Punta Gorda airshow working with cap. We were helping set up tents, park cars, and many other tasks. The boy scouts, on the other hand, were going up to the stalls, buying toys, and proceeding to sit on the ground and play with them while the parents did all of the work. :(
     What I can't stand is being put in the same mental category as BSA. I just hate how people stereotype us as Immature little babies who get handle anything to save their lives. (sure there are some of us out there though.)
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« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2011, 11:10:48 PM »

     Something about the boy scouts;
     They used to be all about good things, and I'm sure there are still some people who live up to the former reputation, but most of what I've seen is a program that is completely run by a few controlling parents, who baby the kids. A recent example: I was at the Punta Gorda airshow working with cap. We were helping set up tents, park cars, and many other tasks. The boy scouts, on the other hand, were going up to the stalls, buying toys, and proceeding to sit on the ground and play with them while the parents did all of the work. :(
     What I can't stand is being put in the same mental category as BSA. I just hate how people stereotype us as Immature little babies who get handle anything to save their lives. (sure there are some of us out there though.)

Are you a Scout? Have you ever been a Scout? What color were the uniforms of these Scouts? It matters greatly as Cub Scouts (blue Uniforms), Boy Scouts (Tan and Olive) and Venturers (Bottle Green) all are "Scouts" but the role of the parents in each program is entirely different.

Your post is an example of the "hate" that the OP was referring to.
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Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
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AmericanRifleSpinner
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« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2011, 11:19:39 PM »

I honestly havent seen CAP hate on the boy scouts too much. Mostly the cadets in my squadron like to crack jokes at JROTC (which I dont consider appropriate).
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arBar
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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2011, 12:30:38 AM »

Why hate, period?

There are lots of youth programs, civic groups, charity organizations, etc. out there, each having their own strengths and weaknesses, CAP included.

Fair criticism in the right place is one thing.  But the power of life and death are in the tongue.  Our praise and our judgments will either build up or tear down.  I think a balanced person knows how to do both in the right way. Others, well...

I've seen and heard CAP folks who have put down scouting, sea cadets, SDFs, JROTC, and CGAUX.  Why is it so common for people to hate on any group different than their own? 

As far as pecking order goes, we're not exactly at the top.  At least when I wear my scout uniform people know what it is.   (Well, actually the new BSA uniform resembles our local sheriff's uniforms and county correctional officer uniforms, so in low light conditions you get some second glances and stares.)

I say show proper respect to these other groups for what is good in them.  Just my .02
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