Uniforms: Things never change...gotta love consistancy

[manfredvonrichthofen]

A thought experiment to ponder over lunch:

Suppose the USAF removed the height/weight standards for the wearing of USAF-style uniforms.

(a loud huzzah! was heard throughout the nation)

Now anyone can wear the blues and (for the sake of argument) ABUs.

And grooming standards?



and



I was told even my mustache here was too wide. I didnt like having to shorten it further. One of the reasons why I went back to the goatee This was the way I looked at the CA Wing Conference.

I have to say BradM, It just looks unprofessional, and unfitting to the uniform. I just don't think beards and goatees fit with the uniform. I am sorry about that, but it really is just how I feel.

So far as the mustache is concerned, yes, it is too wide. The best way to ensure that it is not too wide is to ensure that it is no wider than your mouth when it is closed.

[BradM]

Now listen here you young whippersnapper! hehe We will just have to agree to disagree on this!

You're just not acostumed to seeing trimmed beards and goatees with the uniform. Look at Navy pics from the Royal Navy that I think SarDRagon posted before. It looks fine.

I think my mustache above is more like a Navy one with the extra 1/4 inch on each side.

[jimmydeanno]

A thought experiment to ponder over lunch:

Suppose the USAF removed the height/weight standards for the wearing of USAF-style uniforms.

(a loud huzzah! was heard throughout the nation)

Now anyone can wear the blues and (for the sake of argument) ABUs.

What will we do for members who cannot wear the largest sizes the AF stocks?

(Quick research on aafes.com suggest that blues shirts top out at size 19 and ABUs at size 50.)

There are several manufacturers that will make custom sized uniforms.

This one for example, will make custom sized ABUs for $68.00 per item:

We can make any size or shape ABU pant or shirt! ANY SIZE !!!
12X-Large, no problem.
email or call for information
(310) 704-9055
Matching top same prices.

Or, AAFES (er... The Exchange) offers fully custom sized uniforms.  It takes a bit longer, because they custom make it instead of sending a stock item to the store - but it is available.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Now listen here you young whippersnapper! hehe We will just have to agree to disagree on this!

Yes we will you old geezer! I honestly do wish that beards and goatees in uniform wasn't such a hot spot for me, but it is and I don't even know where it stems from. But I do know that there are a few reasons that the military made the decision; a beard and a goatee will make it impossible for a promask to seal around your face, also if you are in the field, beards and goatees are perfect nests for insects and germs, and they are right next to your mouth and nose and they can get right inside without you knowing it. I know CAP has nothing to do with a promask, so that one doesn't apply to us in the slightest tiny little bit. However the hygiene reason does when we are in the field. However we are never in the field as long as the Army is, so we really don't have that issue either. Yet for some reason I just don't like them in uniforms. Now mustaches are another thing all together, I don't mind them at all. The only time I have ever not liked one was when I was an E-3 fresh out of basic and met my 1st SGT, I wanted to slap him repeatedly until his Hitler stache fell off!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Beards, goatees and other assorted facial fuzz are a naval tradition, particularly in the British Commonwealth, though not one that our USN and USCG seem to have adopted.

Air force traditions seem to have evolved from the first independent air force, the British Royal Air Force, though in our case we also inherited a lot of Army tradition...I haven't seen beards on RAF/Commonwealth or USAAC/AAF/USAF personnel.

I had a beard before joining CAP.  I chose to shave it off...but I'm not going to say that anyone else is less valuable to CAP because they choose not to shave theirs off.

I would be personally quite happy if the "aviator" uniform just added a dash of something except grey and white.

Van Heusen makes blue civilian aviator shirts.



I could easily imagine that with current CAP grey slides and nameplate...and the shade is completely different from the USAF.

[BradM]

I think I found a uniform I can wear with my goatee



BradM as Captain Marko Ramius

[BradM]

^^Beards, goatees and other assorted facial fuzz are a naval tradition, particularly in the British Commonwealth, though not one that our USN and USCG seem to have adopted.

Air force traditions seem to have evolved from the first independent air force, the British Royal Air Force, though in our case we also inherited a lot of Army tradition...I haven't seen beards on RAF/Commonwealth or USAAC/AAF/USAF personnel.

I would be personally quite happy if the "aviator" uniform just added a dash of something except grey and white.

Van Heusen makes blue civilian aviator shirts.

I could easily imagine that with current CAP grey slides and nameplate...and the shade is completely different from the USAF.

I was at an air show at Pt Magu Naval Air Station last year and a modern day Luftwaffe pilot was there and he had a goatee. So in the current Germany's Air Force they allow facial hair.

I like the Van Heusen blue civilian aviator shirts.

[BradM]

Now listen here you young whippersnapper! hehe We will just have to agree to disagree on this!

Yes we will you old geezer! I honestly do wish that beards and goatees in uniform wasn't such a hot spot for me, but it is and I don't even know where it stems from. But I do know that there are a few reasons that the military made the decision; a beard and a goatee will make it impossible for a promask to seal around your face, also if you are in the field, beards and goatees are perfect nests for insects and germs, and they are right next to your mouth and nose and they can get right inside without you knowing it. I know CAP has nothing to do with a promask, so that one doesn't apply to us in the slightest tiny little bit. However the hygiene reason does when we are in the field. However we are never in the field as long as the Army is, so we really don't have that issue either. Yet for some reason I just don't like them in uniforms. Now mustaches are another thing all together, I don't mind them at all. The only time I have ever not liked one was when I was an E-3 fresh out of basic and met my 1st SGT, I wanted to slap him repeatedly until his Hitler stache fell off!

A bearded look in a military uniform



For the record I've never had problems with bugs in my goatee LOL 

[SarDragon]

OK, three mug shots.

D. Bowles, AT1, USN, Mar 1980; yes, I was on active duty.



What I looked like right after I started participating with CAP again, Oct '99.
That was the "before" picture from the last time I shaved off the beard. The "after" will never be seen on the Internet.



Taken in 2003; I look about the same now, but the beard is all white now.

[JeffDG]

I could easily imagine that with current CAP grey slides and nameplate...and the shade is completely different from the USAF.

Even without, having an AF Blue shirt with the stripes instead of bars/leaves on the shoulder would be quite distinctive, and would actually reflect the dual military/corporate (like airline pilots with the stripes) nature of CAP.

[BradM]

OK, three mug shots.

D. Bowles, AT1, USN, Mar 1980; yes, I was on active duty.



Taken in 2003; I look about the same now, but the beard is all white now.

These two pictures I think the beard would look fine in the Air Force uniform.

[SarDragon]

Well, the Navy certainly approved the top one until 1985.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Even without, having an AF Blue shirt with the stripes instead of bars/leaves on the shoulder would be quite distinctive, and would actually reflect the dual military/corporate (like airline pilots with the stripes) nature of CAP.

Noted, Jeff, but the fact is that if the USAF issues it, they own it, and they're going to control what is done with it.

I've thought of the AF shirt with ROTC shoulder marks, but again USAF ownership comes into it.

I would be quite pleased with the Van Heusen blue shirt with off-the-shelf-from-Vanguard ROTC shoulder marks (with CAP cutouts pinned on) and CAP blue nameplate (I still have my old one).


Example: CAP Flight Officer


Example: CAP Captain


Example: CAP Colonel

The AF owns those, too (?), but they cannot be mistaken for USAF officer insignia.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well it surely is less costly for an adult member to just utilize the white aviator shirt with grey pants.  No head gear or special outer wear requirement.   Even with Blue BDU's again there's no specific head gear or outer wear requirements, thus less cost.

Lets face it the AF uniforms are expensive for the average member to equip themselves with.  I personally see members with short sleeve blue uniforms wearing civilian coats, because the cost is very expensive for a military coat.  Some don't even have the appropriate blue head gear.

I just feel that IF CAP differentiated its' uniform a bit more (e.g. bright red colors for CAP, name tags, CAP designation), red epaulets etc, than the AF uniforms become more CAP specific and we are just using the AF supply chain for the color (blue) and  design/cut of the uniform.

Utility uniform wise, NOW is time to (start) transition EVERYONE to Blue BDU's and BLUE flight suits.  This will ensure a consistent mission look EVERYWHERE and less confusion with us as being the military.  I also would like to see us get the authority to wear the golf shirt (both short & long) with the Blue BDU pants.

On all of these uniforms the rank of the volunteer can just be placed above their name tape or tag, keeping everything off the shoulders or collars, further differentiating the uniform from the AF military uniform.

I personally have no issue with overweight personnel wearing this type of AF cut uniform but again the uniform has to fit them properly.  As far as beards, long hair etc goes, I personally no issue with that either.

BTW I  (and I suspect most other mature adults) didn't join CAP just so I/they can wear a military like uniform, I joined to participate & contribute to CAP's missions.    For me the ongoing uniform issues would not be a reason to leave CAP BUT it is a bizarre when compared with most other volunteer organizations that seem to have a consistent UNIFORM that easily and readily identifies the member to that organization.
RM   

[Eclipse]

Well it surely is less costly for an adult member to just utilize the white aviator shirt with grey pants.  No head gear or special outer wear requirement.   Even with Blue BDU's again there's no specific head gear or outer wear requirements, thus less cost.

It always comes down to money, doesn't it?

Not everyone in the organization is fixated on every last cent, and some people actually appreciate the attention to detail it takes to configure something
more complicated than a t-shirt.

[BradM]

I actually am very happy and feel honored that I will get to wear the Air Force uniform. I feel regret for not having served when I was younger and being in CAP is a way that I can serve at this late age of 47 and 9 months I just wish I didnt have to shave the goatee to a mini-mustache to wear it.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Lets face it the AF uniforms are expensive for the average member to equip themselves with.  I personally see members with short sleeve blue uniforms wearing civilian coats, because the cost is very expensive for a military coat.  Some don't even have the appropriate blue head gear.

I don't know about any one else, but I have no idea how much I spent on my Blues, shirts x2, pants x2, service coat, and sold weather waistcoat, or my BDUs x3, but I also know I don't care how much I spent on them. No, I am not rich, not by a long shot. I am disabled and my family of five going on six lives off of that while my wife is in school. I am just proud that I can still serve even after the Army broke me. So, no, uniforms does not always come down to the amount of money. It comes down to, I am proud that I can still serve and I will wear the USAF style uniforms as long as I possibly can.

And so far as the red lipstick all over the uniform, I won't wear that, I will figure out what I have to do to never touch that uniform, yeah, I even mean the rank on the chest. As it is, I wear my uniform proudly, with all of my ribbons, my gray CAP rank, and my gray nameplate, and my badges. I wear it oh so proudly on a blue USAF style uniform, and on my woodland BDUs every week, and at every mission and every training op. Don't mess with something that so many of us are so proud of.

[RVT]

sold weather waistcoat

I'm guessing you meant "Cold weather waistcoat" but I'm still confused.

[RVT]

Even without, having an AF Blue shirt with the stripes instead of bars/leaves on the shoulder would be quite distinctive, and would actually reflect the dual military/corporate (like airline pilots with the stripes) nature of CAP.

Noted, Jeff, but the fact is that if the USAF issues it, they own it, and they're going to control what is done with it.
I've thought of the AF shirt with ROTC shoulder marks, but again USAF ownership comes into it.

I would be quite pleased with the Van Heusen blue shirt with off-the-shelf-from-Vanguard ROTC shoulder marks (with CAP cutouts pinned on) and CAP blue nameplate (I still have my old one).

Example: CAP Flight Officer

Example: CAP Captain

Example: CAP Colonel

The AF owns those, too (?), but they cannot be mistaken for USAF officer insignia.

If we went full McPeak with the grade insignia the USAF would probably be perfectly happy with the rest of the uniform being identical to active duty.  Confusion would be impossible.  A lot of airmen may have no idea what you are - but they won't think for a moment you are regular air force.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Radioman, your fixation with red eludes me.  Talk about GARISH.  It may have worked to an extent with the tan uniforms of long ago.  The Marines use it on their winter dress (greens) for chevrons.  But on BLUE it would be hideous.  It would look worse than the berry boards.  I would rather have those back.  The colours you suggest would make us look like a clone of the Salvation Army, no offence intended to those fine people. 



It would make us look no more "distinctive" than we do now, or even when we still had blue shoulder marks (yes, I know one of the Salvationist shoulder marks is blue, but I don't know their grade structure).

Also, switching to a blue civilian Van Heusen aviator shirt would have negligible cost differences to the current white.

Actually, I agree with you about BBDU's, flight/utility suits and jackets.  Why?  Because there is AIR FORCE precedent for them.





Now, if we would get permission to wear the flight cap, et voila, nothing like what the USAF currently wears (for the most part)...and kinda retro Strategic Air Command looking.

Even what Canadian aircrews used to wear would look good for us:



I also don't have a problem with limiting name/rank, etc. to a leather aircrew-type patch.  The USAF tried it in the early '90s.  It would save on expenses for cloth rank, nametapes, etc.

But one salient fact remains: there are always people, in the USAF and out, who are going to confuse us with someone else, because they choose to remain uninformed about who we are.  That is NOT our fault.

RVT: I've heard others say "go the Tony McPeak route too."  However, that raises the spectre that CG AUXies face...getting sleeve striping sewn on.  I would find it more sensible to have ROTC-type hard shoulder boards press-studded onto the shoulders of the AF enlisted coat (with old-style CAP buttons)...those are often more readily available (and cheaper) on places like Evilbay than the officer cut.


(example for CAP 1st Lt)

Of course, someone will probably overcomplicate things and say "make 'em grey."