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ElectricPenguin
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« on: March 08, 2011, 10:08:31 PM »


Does anyone know if this will count as part of the GTM3 task on the SQTR?

Anyone know where I can get advanced and intermidiate training? :o

I looked at red cross but I don't think they have anything other then basic. 
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arBar
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Posts: 81
Unit: SER-TN-014

Millington Composite Squadron
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 11:03:29 PM »

I guess it depends on what "this" means.

Can you elaborate?
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jeders
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 12:20:42 PM »

If you mean, "does Red Cross basic first aid count for the GTM3 SQTR," yes.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Spaceman3750
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 01:01:04 PM »

Red Cross no longer teaches advanced first aid. I would look into Wilderness First Aid, it is a 16 hour course and covers issues more common to wilderness travel and remote/long-term care.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
EMT-83
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 01:03:10 PM »

... and overkill for GTM3.
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 01:07:04 PM »

... and overkill for GTM3.

OP asked what to do for intermediate and advanced first aid training.

It's wrong to assume that he will be a GTM3 forever. While the advanced levels don't require additional first aid, I really don't see why going above and beyond is a bad thing, at least within the scope of simple first aid training.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
jeders
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Posts: 2,100

« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »

Basic first aid is all that is really needed. If it takes more than an hour or so, it's probably gonna be overkill for 98% of what CAP does.

Now of course if you want overkill, then by all means take the 16-hour courses. But all that is needed is the basic level of first aid.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
jeders
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 01:11:18 PM »

... and overkill for GTM3.

OP asked what to do for intermediate and advanced first aid training.

It's wrong to assume that he will be a GTM3 forever. While the advanced levels don't require additional first aid, I really don't see why going above and beyond is a bad thing, at least within the scope of simple first aid training.

Actually, I don't think any of us know exactly what the OP was asking for because of the peculiar sentence structure and lack of an identifiable topic other than "first aid training." But of course, if the OP, or anyone, wants to go above and beyond, there is nothing at all wrong with that. I encourage it all the time. But we must keep in mind that anything more than basic first aid is overkill for the average member, regardless of level of CAP qualification.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Spaceman3750
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 01:25:48 PM »

Basic first aid is all that is really needed. If it takes more than an hour or so, it's probably gonna be overkill for 98% of what CAP does.

Red Cross basic first aid is 2.5ish hours (don't remember the exact number). By your standards, that would be overkill, and it's definitely not. Probably right where a 13 year old GTM3 needs to be just starting out, but not where I would want them to stay forever.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,043

« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 01:38:07 PM »

"Community level" First Aid is the definition of the requirement in my wing, and all any GT ever needs.

General knowledge is never a bad thing, but we need to separate "nice" from "need", especially for cadets.

I just pinged a wing-approved instructor, AIH curriculum is 4-6 hours without CPR, 6-8 with.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 01:44:27 PM by Eclipse » Logged


jeders
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2011, 04:33:59 PM »

Basic first aid is all that is really needed. If it takes more than an hour or so, it's probably gonna be overkill for 98% of what CAP does.

Red Cross basic first aid is 2.5ish hours (don't remember the exact number). By your standards, that would be overkill, and it's definitely not. Probably right where a 13 year old GTM3 needs to be just starting out, but not where I would want them to stay forever.

Ok, so change it to an hour or two. I remember when I first got qualified the first aid class I got was a little over an hour, if RC basic is 2.5, that's fine. The point is though, that anything more than basic first aid is not NEEDed. Yes, advanced training is desirable, but not necessary. In my 10+ years of GT activity ranging from GTM through GBD, I've never done anything much more than apply a band-aide.

Please don't misunderstand me, I believe that everyone should try to advance every aspect of their training as much as possible. But I also recognize that there is a cost reward relationship with all training, and getting first aid training beyond basic first aid self-care for use in CAP has a very limited reward.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
CAPSGT
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Unit: MER-MD-086

« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 02:59:50 PM »

My wing actually asked for clarification on the standards from NHQ.  One of our members was working on a team that was revising 60-3 at the time, and what was being referenced there as a standard was ASTM F2171-02, which gives some lattitude, but as a general guidline suggests 4-8 hours of instruction to complete covering at a minimum: Basic Preparatory, Airway, Assessment, Circulation, Medical Emergencies, and Trauma Emergencies.

Your most common providers that will generally be universally recognized are: American Heart Association, American Red Cross, or National Safety Council courses.  All have varying levels of training, but the basic course from any of them should meet the ASTM standard.
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MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
Assistant Communications Officer, Wicomico Composite Squadron
Major Lord
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 03:11:16 PM »

You only really need to learn first aid to the level that is on par with how much you value your life and the life of your teammates (regardless of whether its a CAP requirement or not) Watching someone die because the 2 hour minimum course you took did not give you the confidence and knowledge you need to act could be a wee bit irksome. Any 10 year old kid with a room temperature IQ can be trained to First Responder levels.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
CAPSGT
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Posts: 394
Unit: MER-MD-086

« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 03:41:47 PM »

While I agree with Maj Lord's sentiment that more training is certainly better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you can train just anybody to first responder levels.  The primary factors here are attention span/interest (lower a younger ages) and experience.

Part of the reason that CPR standards have changed so often over the last few years is not some new advancement in medicine, but rather it's to make what lay responders do more worthwhile.  For example, lay responders are no longer taught to check for a pulse because your average person cannot accurately determine if a pulse is present or not: they usually end up feeling their own pulse instead, causing a delay in actual help.

Learning something you are not comfortable performing is not usually very worthwhile either.  I would say train to the level you are comfortable performing.  For most people, that is probably going to be your standard first aid/cpr level.
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MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
Assistant Communications Officer, Wicomico Composite Squadron
arBar
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Unit: SER-TN-014

Millington Composite Squadron
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2011, 02:04:54 AM »

My CERT class covered enough first aid for me to get signed off on GTM3, and it wasn't alot.  I'm all for getting more advanced first aid because even though it may not be required for CAP, you never know when you might need it outside of CAP.  I'll definitely be taking it at some point whether or not the regs require it.
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commando1
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Posts: 129

« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2011, 04:47:38 PM »

While I agree with Maj Lord's sentiment that more training is certainly better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you can train just anybody to first responder levels.  The primary factors here are attention span/interest (lower a younger ages) and experience.
In order to train to become a First Responder in many states the legal age is 18. By that point they know what they want in life and are going for it. The average First Responder course is approx 60 hours last time I checked. No 10 year old will sit through 60 hours of medical instruction and be confidant enough to do what their trained for under duress.
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Non Timebo Mala
Major Lord
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 10:52:42 PM »

I never suggested that a 10 year old kid might sit through a sixty hour class, or that 10 Year old should be certified in anything. A 10 year old with normal intelligence and a few months to learn the FR skills could manage it quite well. Heck, even Firemen can learn it! ;) Our culture tends to keep children infantile, but in places where the feces hits the fan ( Israel, etc) you can see children that are very competent.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
majdomke
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Unit: CA-146

Squadron 50 Website
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 06:38:19 PM »

I never suggested that a 10 year old kid might sit through a sixty hour class, or that 10 Year old should be certified in anything. A 10 year old with normal intelligence and a few months to learn the FR skills could manage it quite well. Heck, even Firemen can learn it! ;) Our culture tends to keep children infantile, but in places where the feces hits the fan ( Israel, etc) you can see children that are very competent.

Major Lord
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SARJunkie
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2011, 08:40:06 AM »

Are you serious?  10 year old First Responder!  REALLY?


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Ex CAP Guy!
BillB
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 09:02:35 AM »

I don't kno as I'd go as far as a ten year old, but I took a First Responder Course offered by the local Community College. There was a 15 year old dual-enrolled (high school-community college program) student that took the course. She ended up with an A grade, one of the few A's given that semester. She went on and completed the EMT course and is currently in the B.A in Nursing program at the University of Florida.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
SARJunkie
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 09:25:04 AM »

Im a First Responder and EMT instructor.... No way would I let a 10 year old take the course!!!
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Ex CAP Guy!
Major Lord
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 09:38:46 AM »

Of course not, that course is not designed for 10 Year old kids, and ten year old kids are (hopefully) not going to be needed to function as professional  First Responders. The information contained within the curricula would be taught by teaching professionals over a longer period. My point is that the curricula of the FR course  should be the minimum for First Aid instruction. Every human comes with a body, but no repair manual, so someone should at least let them see the "owners Guide" in the glove compartment. It is an absolute fact that everyone will someday have a serious illness or injury, eventually resulting in death. ( Okay, a few people may have ascended bodily into heaven without death, but my guess is that even they had a few boo-boos and owies along the way) Don't worry FR and CPR freelance instructors, I am not advising taking away your rice bowl!

Major Lord,
First Responder, EMT, Etc.
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: first aid training
 


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