The AF may have too many awards also

[lordmonar]

After all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear?  And why should it matter to you how many I wear?  I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours.  What's the problem, anyway?

Jack

Now that's just crazy talk!

[SamFranklin]

I used to hate the Red Service Award because when you first earn it, it's kinda meaningless. Wow, I renewed twice! Here's a ribbon.

But now it's my #1 favorite ribbon because it's a good representation of years of service. (BTW, I have some of the most prestigious ones, too.) If you see someone with a few clasps on theirs or the 20, 30, 40 etc., devices, then I think the ribbon is really meaningful. It's saying, "I've been volunteering for a long while... I'm committed to the organization and its great missions."

ymmv

[Ned]

Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:

Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained.  Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.

Thanks for the insight.   

[James Shaw]

Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:

Some may feel that way but others by no means agree, not everybody agrees.

Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained.

100% Agree, You earn it you wear it.

Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.

It does seem to be pointing that way from some of the responses. Its almost like you should be ashamed if you do get them or strive for anything other than the very basic. I cant agree with this mindset.

Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday.  If an individual does not wish to be recognized for his/her accomplishments, that's fine.  I admire such people for their humility, and wish I could be more like them.  But I don't agree that reducing or consolidating that recognition is a good idea across the board.

After all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear?  And why should it matter to you how many I wear?  I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours.  What's the problem, anyway?

Jack

Great way to put it Jack!

[RiverAux]

Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:

Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained.  Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.

Thanks for the insight.   

Boy, I don't see that at all.  If anything most people here are talking about the awards that they have earned.  Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards. 

[coudano]

Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday.

See I guess I just disagree with this.
And humility has nothing to do with it.
Motivations do, however...

in my opinion, the following things are pay day...
-getting called out on an actual mission
-actually saving someone's life or property
-seeing 'lightbulbs' turn on as cadets "get it" and come online
-seeing cadets leave the cadet program and go succeed in real life
-doing "huh huh" cool stuff like launching a baloon to 100,000 ft or pushing yourself around a gym floor on a dolly using a leaf blower for propulsion
-flying on someone else's dollar (thanks, taxpayers!)
-hanging out with people i have common interests with and doing things that i like with them

CAP is brilliantly structured in that the work *IS* the pay.
ribbons and certificates don't hold a candle to any of those things.

if you're doing it for the bling, you're doing it for the wrong reasons
and the (relatively cheap) pay doesn't justify the (relatively hard) work

[lordmonar]

Those are all good pay days....and I think we all strive to get all our members to that level of self sacrafice and committment to service.
But CAP gets all types.
And as a leader we should not limit ourselves to a one-size-fits all motivational tool.
People are different and what motivates them are different.
For you.....I don't need to give you a thing.....just more missions and more jobs
But for others.....a CAP Achievement Award for doing good work at the squadron level is just thing I need to continue that good work.
I don't care why someone joins CAP.....the cool factor of wearing a flight suit....getting salutes from a bunch of kids......padding a resume......free flying.....I don't care.
I care that they commit and follow thourgh on getting the mission done.  Bottom line.


While I would make changes (as I have stated) I don't rerally have a major problem with CAP's awards and decoration.
The one thing that really needs to be done is to educate our leadership on what the standards are for the decorations and more consistancy if the application of that standard.

I whole heartely feel that you should get a medal for "Just Doing Your Job" because we have so many people in CAP who can't/don't/won't do the tasks assigned to them.

If you want compare 1940's military with the 2010 military and say "what a bunch of fecal matter"  Well okay.  But it sounds like my old man giving me greif about using computers to do term papers......"back in my day we had a dictionary and a manual type writer....and if you made a mistake we started all over again!"

Times change, people change.

The military and CAP uses ribbons to reward, recognise and motivate people.  It is cheap, it is easy (or should be) and it harms no one.

If you think your Red Service ribbon is silly.......then don't wear it.  But just because you think an IMB Selectic Type writter is the bee's knees.....don't take the tools away from other professionals as they try to lead their people in today's missions. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My dad did four years - two years National Guard, two years active Army.

Most of his active duty was spent with the 4th Armored Division in Erlangen, West Germany.  That was a rapidly-heating period, when the Soviets were sealing East Germany off, culminating with the Berlin Wall in 1961.  He told me a few stories about the Sovs' sabre-rattling that were a bit hair-raising.

He didn't even qualify for the NDSM.  I think he told me he had six ribbons (two rows), a couple of which were state NG ribbons.

Even when he saw service personnel (all branches) on things like game shows, he said "do they get ribbons just for showing up?"  I have his 4th Armored "yearbook" and even his top sergeants, warrant and commissioned officers with WWII service didn't have as much chest candy as an E-3 does today.

With CAP, I have indeed often noticed lieutenants and captains with multiple Commander's Commendations...some of which they got just for knowing the "right people" at Wing/Region.  Not all, of course, but some.

The BMV and SMV are a lot harder to get, and rightly so.

I don't think that it's necessarily the standards that are too low...but that too often they're not applied equally across-the-board.

[Hawk200]

Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:

Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained.  Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.

Thanks for the insight.   

I think you have strange insight. That is most certainly not a concensus. My own proposal would eliminate a few ribbons for me, and I would have no issues with it. So the argument there is a failure.

It is highly unlikely that I would ever earn either of the Medals of Valor, but I think it would be complete idiocy to eliminate them, and I would fight such a thing as long as I could. It is a very distinctive way of showing that someone has gone above and beyond as a person.

On my own proposal, I have a rather simple logic: if you have a Level 3 ribbon, then you would have to have a Level 2, or Level 1. What's the point of such a thing? Not much, it's simply adding more ingredients to your fruit salad for the sake of doing so.

Now, a single ribbon would indicate an accomplishment, the device would show the level. Level 1 gets the basic ribbon. Level 2 adds the number. Level 3 would change the number, but that's minor.

I've removed Levels 1 and 2 from my own rack. I don't need to explain that I have 1 and 2, it's a given. Right now, if/when I gain another Level, I have to buy a different ribbon. That's an annoyance to me (maybe not to everyone else, I'll grant that). If I have to get a new ribbon, the same one is a lot easier to find.

A senior currently with Level 5 would have a ribbon rack that says: "I've got Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4, and Level 5." Consolidating them into a single ribbon would say: "I've completed Level 5."

I've put forth the idea of keeping the Wilson, although I'm not married to the idea. A PD ribbon representing levels of accomplishment with a "5" on it would be just as distinctive as a separate ribbon. I'm really not eliminating accomplishments at all, just cleaning up the way they're represented.

I don't think that it's necessarily the standards that are too low...but that too often they're not applied equally across-the-board.

I would wholeheartedly agree.

[Major Carrales]

After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine.  We have ribbons based on the needs of our organization with meaning (contrary to this notion that they are somewho meaningless) for what they provide.  There is a set criteria from their award and wear.

I would not support adding anymore and this idea to redefine and comsolidate creates more problems that it solves. 

Leave it alone...

[Hawk200]

After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine. 

Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

  Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards.

Then you might want to read back a little bit. There was a post about wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV with another award.

EDIT: "AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)" Was the exact phrase used.

[Major Carrales]

After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine. 

Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.

Change for change's sake is part of the problem that creates ineffeciency.  Consolidating/redesigining ribbons is not a priority and represents a wasted effort as proven by the endless and repeated discussion on the matter.  Some want to make the ribbons mirror "their favorite service," others want a scrapping of years of tradition (leading me to believe that their either know nothing of it, or worse, don't care), others seem to think we need no ribbons while other just want their "pet projects" to become ribbons.

I've made my share of suggestions over the years for everything from consolidation, adding devices to introduction and it continues to, after a look back, serve as a distraction from the real issues. Wheels spun gaining no ground and creating unnecessary disagreement between people who, otherwise, would be friends.

I don't think we need new ribbons and will not support the idea of new ones simply because people think we need them...I think the number and purpose of ribbons we have now is fine and, if we adhere to the criteria for award, they will make their way to the deserving.

[RiverAux]

  Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards.

Then you might want to read back a little bit. There was a post about wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV with another award.

EDIT: "AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)" Was the exact phrase used.

Yeah, he wasn't complaining about them.  It was part of a larger proposal to use existing AF civilian awards in place of CAP awards.  This isn't anywhere near what Ned was saying -- that people wanted to get rid of awards that they didn't have and probably wouldn't get. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Gotcha.

I have to agree that there are some who want all the medals that they can get and if they can't get one, they don't want it to exist. I also know of some that are badge hogs as well. I have seen a couple of people with as many badges as they have ribbons. Seen them with ABN, AASLT, EMB and EIB, Marksmanship(basic), and driver. The Army allows you to wear everything you have, and there is no stipulation as to how high they can go on your chest so long as it doesn't go over your shoulder. The only thing is that if you have multiple badges in the same class can't be in the same area (AASLT can't be next to ABN, one of them has to be on the pocket, and one above the ribbons). That is when things start to look bad.

So long as you stay within the regulations, your rack won't look bad. Ensure your ribbons and badges stay below the top notch of the collar and everything will be fine. I know if I get one more ribbon I will have to go to four ribbons across or take one off, the same will have to happen when I get my star on my GT badge. I am at my limit as is. I will not however do as I have seen quite a few times in CAP when someone has more than will fit within the regulations, and just do as I wish and let everything ride up my chest as high as I want.

Just keep in regulations, and everything will be fine.

[flyboy53]

After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine. 

Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.

Change for change's sake is part of the problem that creates ineffeciency.  Consolidating/redesigining ribbons is not a priority and represents a wasted effort as proven by the endless and repeated discussion on the matter.  Some want to make the ribbons mirror "their favorite service," others want a scrapping of years of tradition (leading me to believe that their either know nothing of it, or worse, don't care), others seem to think we need no ribbons while other just want their "pet projects" to become ribbons.

I've made my share of suggestions over the years for everything from consolidation, adding devices to introduction and it continues to, after a look back, serve as a distraction from the real issues. Wheels spun gaining no ground and creating unnecessary disagreement between people who, otherwise, would be friends.

I don't think we need new ribbons and will not support the idea of new ones simply because people think we need them...I think the number and purpose of ribbons we have now is fine and, if we adhere to the criteria for award, they will make their way to the deserving.

Actually...thanx. I appreciate your insight and you are correct. I think, though, what needs to be stressed, especially with the PD awards, is that you can wear just your highest one. I added my reservations to all the PD awards knowing full well that they exist as an incentive to get people to complete the training and make themselves more effective as senior members. I would rather have them do the training.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yeah, he wasn't complaining about them.  It was part of a larger proposal to use existing AF civilian awards in place of CAP awards.  This isn't anywhere near what Ned was saying -- that people wanted to get rid of awards that they didn't have and probably wouldn't get.

RiverAux is correct.  I will probably not live to see the day when I earn a BMV/SMV, but no way do I begrudge it to someone else who has earned it.

What I was saying was that adopting extant AF civilian awards, and consolidating several CAP awards into them, would streamline things a bit, as well as connect us more closely to the AF.

I'm surprised I got a Commander's Commendation.  I wasn't expecting it.

I'm qualified for the Paul E. Garber award, or nearly so, and another clasp for my Red Service Ribbon, but I haven't even taken it up with my commander because I don't want to seem a "glory hog."

[SARDOC]

I like Cyborg's point about maybe changing some of the current CAP awards to the USAF Civilian awards.

[RiverAux]

Not sure it would be worth the administrative hassle to go that route.  I'm sure they aren't set up to administer CAP's award system for it.

[Major Carrales]

Wear of ribbons is "all, some or none" last time I looked, if one has the personal preference to wear only the highest PD award...so be it.  If one wants to wear them all, let that stand to its own merit within the regulations.