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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aerospace Education  |  Topic: Bye bye NCASE
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Author Topic: Bye bye NCASE  (Read 11367 times)
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2006, 10:14:04 PM »

I made a 20-minute information video about the Army's transition to the Army Aviation Branch in two weeks with a rented camera, one cameraman, and one NCO.  We had editing facilities at Ft. Rucker, but did the edit ourselves.

That was two weeks from CONCEPT to COMPLETION.  We did the research, I wrote the script and did my own voiceover audio, selected background music, got PA officer approval of the script, did the historical research, shot the scenes, and edited the final product.

It was a LOT of 12-14 hour days.  After a 12-14 hour day, we'd stop at the club, have a beer, and plan the next day's activity.  I burned out my cameraman, who transfered right after the mission.  he didn't know he'd have to work that hard.  My commander was concerned that we were working too hard, and ordered us to go out to dinner with him.  We sat in a pizza-and-beer restaurant there in L.A. (Lower Alabama) watching the pilot film of "Knight Rider."  There was a scene where the talking car crashed through a plate-glass window.  Both my NCO and I said, "Dang, that was a great edit!"  Even over Pepperoni and PBR we coundn't put it down till it was done.
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Another former CAP officer
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2006, 11:37:37 PM »

The decision makers should not underestimate the importance of AE and CP in supporting the organization as a whole.  I know several senior members that have joined because they are teachers, and were exposed to CAP through the AE program.  Then the teachers go back to school, excited and enthusiastic about AE and wanting to share the neat things they did during their summer workshop.  Next thing you know we get a few cadets join the squadron because of the AE program.

Also, in Tennessee, the Wing gets funding from the state Aeronautics Commission.  I have heard that when CAP goes in to pitch for $$, they tell the commission how much we do in SAR and such, and the commission is sort of OK, what else do you have.  Then when they are told, oh, we also have a cadet program, they are more interested in providing funding.  Cadets interested in aerospace = new pilots = good for the aeronautics commission.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2006, 11:40:08 PM »

Oh I'm positive that the reason most towns/airports that provide free meeting space for CAP do so primarily because of the cadet program. 

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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,249

« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2006, 11:41:51 PM »

I know of at least two senior sqdns that get free meeting space at local airports. No cadets involved.
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,981

« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2006, 12:30:07 AM »

Oh I'm positive that the reason most towns/airports that provide free meeting space for CAP do so primarily because of the cadet program. 


My experience has been that FBOs and government airport authorities want to demonstrate their commitment to the local community and to general aviation by supporting (and housing!) CAP.....if cadets are involved, so much the better when it's time for photo ops for the local newspapers....but I've often seen both senior squadrons and group headquarters helped with equal enthusiasm by airport managers.
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sandman
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351

« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2006, 12:57:29 AM »

The decision makers should not underestimate the importance of AE and CP in supporting the organization as a whole.  I know several senior members that have joined because they are teachers, and were exposed to CAP through the AE program.  Then the teachers go back to school, excited and enthusiastic about AE and wanting to share the neat things they did during their summer workshop.  Next thing you know we get a few cadets join the squadron because of the AE program.

Also, in Tennessee, the Wing gets funding from the state Aeronautics Commission.  I have heard that when CAP goes in to pitch for $$, they tell the commission how much we do in SAR and such, and the commission is sort of OK, what else do you have.  Then when they are told, oh, we also have a cadet program, they are more interested in providing funding.  Cadets interested in aerospace = new pilots = good for the aeronautics commission.

I still contend that CAP areospace education is an obsolete concept. My point is that there are many avenues available to the public who are interested in learning history and current events in aviation.
What then is the point of CAP AE? Sure, it can reach a few people but the scope is narrow and the delivery outdated.
What I am reading from your post gives me the idea that AE is actually a subset of recruiting. That's OK, but not the original purpose of AE.

I hope I'm wrong....
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MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2006, 10:43:13 AM »

The decision makers should not underestimate the importance of AE and CP in supporting the organization as a whole.  I know several senior members that have joined because they are teachers, and were exposed to CAP through the AE program.  Then the teachers go back to school, excited and enthusiastic about AE and wanting to share the neat things they did during their summer workshop.  Next thing you know we get a few cadets join the squadron because of the AE program.

Also, in Tennessee, the Wing gets funding from the state Aeronautics Commission.  I have heard that when CAP goes in to pitch for $$, they tell the commission how much we do in SAR and such, and the commission is sort of OK, what else do you have.  Then when they are told, oh, we also have a cadet program, they are more interested in providing funding.  Cadets interested in aerospace = new pilots = good for the aeronautics commission.

I still contend that CAP areospace education is an obsolete concept. My point is that there are many avenues available to the public who are interested in learning history and current events in aviation.
What then is the point of CAP AE? Sure, it can reach a few people but the scope is narrow and the delivery outdated.
What I am reading from your post gives me the idea that AE is actually a subset of recruiting. That's OK, but not the original purpose of AE.

I hope I'm wrong....

I would not say that AE is outdated, but CAP needs to keep its program current with the times and our target audience, which is still largely undefined.

For example, could we produce pre-packaged lessons in subjects OTHER than physics and science that emphasize the importance of aviation?  History lessons, economics, physiology, geography, mathematics, all kinds of subjects have a component that is effected by aviation.  Keep the lesson to 30-40 minutes so it would fit into a standard classroom period, with time for attadance, announcements, and the teacher's introduction.  Produce a teacher's guide to the lesson, and answers to pobable questions, make the video entertaining and interesting.  Teachers might just keep it as a standby lesson for when they have to bring in a "Sub."

THAT would educate the public about the overall social impact of aviation, AND have the side benefit of getting CAP in front of the target group for cadet recruiting.  This is called "Soft" recruiting, creating a favorable image without asking for a committment to join. 
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Another former CAP officer
A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,615

« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2006, 11:34:15 AM »

I would not say that AE is outdated, but CAP needs to keep its program current with the times and our target audience, which is still largely undefined.

For example, could we produce pre-packaged lessons in subjects OTHER than physics and science that emphasize the importance of aviation?  History lessons, economics, physiology, geography, mathematics, all kinds of subjects have a component that is effected by aviation.  Keep the lesson to 30-40 minutes so it would fit into a standard classroom period, with time for attadance, announcements, and the teacher's introduction.  Produce a teacher's guide to the lesson, and answers to pobable questions, make the video entertaining and interesting.  Teachers might just keep it as a standby lesson for when they have to bring in a "Sub."
I agree, the idea of AE is not at all out-dated.  There are many opportunities for the organization. 

We must redefine the organization's approach.  I really like the idea proposed above.  Kids are really very bright - possibly because there is so much information out there.  The result is that we need a program that speaks to that level and really allows for the development of concepts rather than some of the very elementary type exercises that are produced.  Perhaps that also means more experienced/trained AEO's. 

There are plenty of areas where CAP can develop programs to set it apart from any other organization in the AE arena.  In addition to a better classroom type curriculum, we need to form better partnerships with the business community - both at a national and local level.  At a more standardized/coordinated level we should:
   Arrange visits to maintenance facilities (airlines/military at best - our own at minimum). 
   Tear down engines and rebuild them. 
   Work with aerodynamics (allow for design and to see real wind tunnel tests and impacts).   
   Explore the physiology of flight (take a trip to a hyperbaric chamber and experience it's effects).
   Every cadet should go the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat.   
   Discuss specific aerospace career opportunities (from design to legal, ticket counter to programmer, balloon pilot to astronaut). 
   Tour ATC, Flight Service Stations, etc. 
   Visit an airlines operation center. 
   Participate as a sponsor, at some level, for aviation activities such as air rallys, air races, air shows, aircraft visits to/from schools (middle school to high school), or even new events that take us into the next chapter of aerospace such as Ansari's X-Prize or Rocket Racing League
   View shuttle/rocket launches. 
   Tour NASA (and not just the general tour but a VIP type tour)
   Arrange incentive rides with the AF (maybe any cadet that earns a Spaatz)
   Tour manufacturers and designers. 
   TV programs/commercials (even if done as a PSA - educate the non-flying public as to why GA is important)
   Sponsor/advertise/host an on-line page for current events (similar to www.avweb.com or the like)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 11:48:38 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2006, 07:35:56 PM »

I guess my problem is that I tend to like to be able to determine success by measurable criteria.  I just don't see any in the external AE program.  Maybe they're there someplace. 
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Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,164
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2006, 07:58:17 PM »

I guess my problem is that I tend to like to be able to determine success by measurable criteria.  I just don't see any in the external AE program.  Maybe they're there someplace. 

Pretty much in a program like external AE, where the organization is educating members of the public with no need for a call to action but simply for awareness, it would be near impossible to measure success.  Awareness is expensive, time-consuming, and difficult to determine if you are doing your job right.

But it would seem that we're barely doing our job to begin with, as an overall nationwide organization.  We don't need a measuring stick to realize that the program itself needs a good look at and a significant, purposeful reorganization.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2006, 09:06:07 PM »

As an IG, I've inspected lots of squadron-level units.  AE is the first thing to be thrown over the side to lighten the load.

And why not?  Like RiverAux said, there's no way to measure when you are successful, so there's also no way to measure failure.
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Another former CAP officer
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2006, 09:10:41 PM »

If you put your mind to it, you can figure out ways to measure public awareness.  However, to do it you would need to know exactly what key messages you're trying to put across.  What are the key messages of our external AE program?  Heck if I know. 

But, if you knew what message you're trying to get across you can determine if it is working. 

For example, if your message is focused on the importance of civil aviation you can conduct surveys of the public before and after a particular campaign to see if there has been any change in public opinion on some part of that issue (such as: Has the percentage of people in your state who believe it is important for local towns to fund airports risen?).

You're right about the cost and the difficulty though.

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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,615

« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2006, 10:38:36 PM »

As an IG, I've inspected lots of squadron-level units.  AE is the first thing to be thrown over the side to lighten the load.

And why not?  Like RiverAux said, there's no way to measure when you are successful, so there's also no way to measure failure.
There are plenty of metrics that could be developed - even for external programs.  It wouldn't be overly difficult to do.  Someone just needs to take the time to do it.  That should be the role of National and conferences like NCASE.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,342
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2006, 02:17:12 AM »

I would not say that AE is outdated, but CAP needs to keep its program current with the times and our target audience, which is still largely undefined.

For example, could we produce pre-packaged lessons in subjects OTHER than physics and science that emphasize the importance of aviation?  History lessons, economics, physiology, geography, mathematics, all kinds of subjects have a component that is effected by aviation.  Keep the lesson to 30-40 minutes so it would fit into a standard classroom period, with time for attadance, announcements, and the teacher's introduction.  Produce a teacher's guide to the lesson, and answers to pobable questions, make the video entertaining and interesting.  Teachers might just keep it as a standby lesson for when they have to bring in a "Sub."
I agree, the idea of AE is not at all out-dated.  There are many opportunities for the organization. 

We must redefine the organization's approach.  I really like the idea proposed above.  Kids are really very bright - possibly because there is so much information out there.  The result is that we need a program that speaks to that level and really allows for the development of concepts rather than some of the very elementary type exercises that are produced.  Perhaps that also means more experienced/trained AEO's. 

There are plenty of areas where CAP can develop programs to set it apart from any other organization in the AE arena.  In addition to a better classroom type curriculum, we need to form better partnerships with the business community - both at a national and local level.  At a more standardized/coordinated level we should:
[do a bunch of really kool stuff]

Who's gonna pay for all this?

I hear folks bemoaning swapping out $3 patches, and the $7 shipping for the patch, and our AF funding is decreasing, but now y'all want to spend thousands of dollars with no apparent source.

YMMV.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,615

« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2006, 02:29:46 AM »

I would not say that AE is outdated, but CAP needs to keep its program current with the times and our target audience, which is still largely undefined.

For example, could we produce pre-packaged lessons in subjects OTHER than physics and science that emphasize the importance of aviation?  History lessons, economics, physiology, geography, mathematics, all kinds of subjects have a component that is effected by aviation.  Keep the lesson to 30-40 minutes so it would fit into a standard classroom period, with time for attadance, announcements, and the teacher's introduction.  Produce a teacher's guide to the lesson, and answers to pobable questions, make the video entertaining and interesting.  Teachers might just keep it as a standby lesson for when they have to bring in a "Sub."
I agree, the idea of AE is not at all out-dated.  There are many opportunities for the organization. 

We must redefine the organization's approach.  I really like the idea proposed above.  Kids are really very bright - possibly because there is so much information out there.  The result is that we need a program that speaks to that level and really allows for the development of concepts rather than some of the very elementary type exercises that are produced.  Perhaps that also means more experienced/trained AEO's. 

There are plenty of areas where CAP can develop programs to set it apart from any other organization in the AE arena.  In addition to a better classroom type curriculum, we need to form better partnerships with the business community - both at a national and local level.  At a more standardized/coordinated level we should:
[do a bunch of really kool stuff]

Who's gonna pay for all this?

I hear folks bemoaning swapping out $3 patches, and the $7 shipping for the patch, and our AF funding is decreasing, but now y'all want to spend thousands of dollars with no apparent source.

YMMV.
That's a valid question. 

We could stop wasting money on silly things like ARCHER and GA-8's.  That'd be a start.  But we'd also be looking for corporate donations (dollars, time, and/or resources)/sponsors, obtain Space-A flights, reduce paper costs, etc.   We must sell on the benefit we're providing as well.  Recently, we even had enough money to sponsor some silly NASCAR team.  I'm confident that we could find the funds if we were interested in looking.

BTW, we received a lot more funding this year for training than we did last year.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 02:41:29 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,107

« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2006, 02:35:28 AM »

Who's gonna pay for all this?

I hear folks bemoaning swapping out $3 patches, and the $7 shipping for the patch, and our AF funding is decreasing, but now y'all want to spend thousands of dollars with no apparent source.

YMMV.

One point of order... never underestimate the determination of CAP Officers.   If there is any program that has a corps of CAP Officers that want to see it happen, they might just pony up the money to make it come to fruition.  Not only that, they might...if they really believed in it...spend countless hours, days and weeks making it happen.

My point is...if one loves something that much they will find a way.

I don't know if this is such a program, but if it was...and people really wanted it to succeed...I bet it would happen from MEMBER FUNDS, MEMBER TIME and MEMBER INGENUITY.  I honestly believe that.

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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2006, 10:09:22 AM »

Who's gonna pay for all this?

I hear folks bemoaning swapping out $3 patches, and the $7 shipping for the patch, and our AF funding is decreasing, but now y'all want to spend thousands of dollars with no apparent source.

YMMV.

One point of order... never underestimate the determination of CAP Officers.   If there is any program that has a corps of CAP Officers that want to see it happen, they might just pony up the money to make it come to fruition.  Not only that, they might...if they really believed in it...spend countless hours, days and weeks making it happen.

My point is...if one loves something that much they will find a way.

I don't know if this is such a program, but if it was...and people really wanted it to succeed...I bet it would happen from MEMBER FUNDS, MEMBER TIME and MEMBER INGENUITY.  I honestly believe that.

"Civil Air Patrol:  That part of the Air Force that DOES have to hold bake sales."

"I am a CAP officer.  I have done so much with so little for so long that I am now qualified to do anything with nothing."


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Another former CAP officer
sandman
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351

« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2006, 05:56:58 PM »

Who's gonna pay for all this?

I hear folks bemoaning swapping out $3 patches, and the $7 shipping for the patch, and our AF funding is decreasing, but now y'all want to spend thousands of dollars with no apparent source.

YMMV.

One point of order... never underestimate the determination of CAP Officers.   If there is any program that has a corps of CAP Officers that want to see it happen, they might just pony up the money to make it come to fruition.  Not only that, they might...if they really believed in it...spend countless hours, days and weeks making it happen.

My point is...if one loves something that much they will find a way.

I don't know if this is such a program, but if it was...and people really wanted it to succeed...I bet it would happen from MEMBER FUNDS, MEMBER TIME and MEMBER INGENUITY.  I honestly believe that.

"Civil Air Patrol:  That part of the Air Force that DOES have to hold bake sales."

"I am a CAP officer.  I have done so much with so little for so long that I am now qualified to do anything with nothing."


1. Are there enough CAP officers with time and interest to keep an AE program afloat?
2. What value does it have to the Air Force?
3. Would there be enough people interested in ammending the congressional charter to de-emphasize the AE?
4. If #3 could be accomplished, what should be the replacement?
just questions, musings, ruminations.....
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MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2007, 05:46:03 AM »

That doesn't even make sense.  You're saying that one of the purposes of the CAP is to get people to join CAP? No, it is obvious to me, and you hit on it later, that this is what we're now calling the external AE "program". 
Yes kind of. It's a mission to give people the opportunity to serve their Country by helping us help the AF, absolutely that' spart of our job. It seems pretty plain to me just the way it's written.

The external & internal for adults are about supporting the AF budget. The internal & external for kids are about inspiting them to want to be fighter pilots so they end up AF supply officers rather than tankers or even worse, bankers - sorry lawyers didn't rhyme.  ;D

Anyway, civil aviation is fine to the extent that kids are exposed to it & it makes fighter pilots, otherwise it's not the AF's job nor is it appropriate to spend AF money (read CAP's time) doing that. I think our role in general aviation is from a safety perspective & letting them know we're the people that'll be coming to get them. Kind of like a cessna is to an F22 as CAP is to PJs? Get GA pilots thinking of CAP that way & that's good for everyone. Otherwise you're talking about AOPA's world & they're pretty good at it already.

I don't think you can pull AE out of the charter. For one, it's already de-emphasized in reality regardless of the paper, plus that's not really what the charter says. Anyway, our ES isn't anything special, our cadet program is great but can be absoarbed pretty easily by all the rest out there. AE seems like no big deal but for some reason the AF big whigs think it helps them out. You need all of it together to make us a worthy investment, and really we need more than that as ES is changing around NIMS at teh same time ELT tech is coming online.
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,638

« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 12:45:44 PM »

I think a lot of the AE program comes from the old days in befor the 1950's where air travel was not as common place as it is today.

I mean today we have air ports all over the place, flying is one of the most popular (if not the #1) method of cross country transportation.

Every major city has one or more major air ports.  Back in the 1940's they were still fighting with the Army about whether air power was even relevant.  They had a serious lack of trained pilots and very little home town enthusasm for flying.  So AE ogranisations were in the intrest of the USAF because it helped produce pilots, educated voters on the use of air power which in turn influenced congress.

Today...it is not nearly as important, IMHO.  Internally I think it is great.  Externally...I think it is at a point of diminishing return.  How much time and energey should I spend here at Las Vegas educating the citezens of this city about how air power helps them.  They alread have an air port.  Their concerns are about noise and property values.  They already have two air ports inside the city limits...the want to move them out!  So AE in my opinion here in Vegas is a losing proposition.

So NCAS is going away....if it costs too much....good.  Let's spend that money on another powered flight academy session. 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aerospace Education  |  Topic: Bye bye NCASE
 


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