CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[davidsinn]

So, are the ICL's valid or not?

Yes.

And that's a clearer answer than we've gotten from NHQ.

[JoeTomasone]

So, are the ICL's valid or not?

Yes.

And that's a clearer answer than we've gotten from NHQ.

More properly, if you go by the regs, no.    If you ask National, yes.

[HGjunkie]

So, who do we follow, National or the Regs? That's a brain-twister if i've ever seen one...

[JoeTomasone]

Now you enter into the dirty world of politics.

You follow National if you don't want a ton of grief heaped upon your head.

You follow the regs if you feel the need to rebel to the point of receiving pain.

As for me, I both follow the uniform ICLs and make my displeasure known up the Chain of Command.   I am Captain, hear me whimper.

[Ned]

Now you enter into the dirty world of politics.

You follow National if you don't want a ton of grief heaped upon your head.

Non-concur.

National Headquarters has no command or control function.  It is composed of about a hundred hard-working employees who have no authority to issue regulations or orders.

Command is solely a function of our volunteer leadership, starting with Gen Courter and flowing through the region and wing commanders down to your squadron commander.

I certainly agree that the 39-1 needs to be updated and revised, and also agree that we are dirty on incorporating the ICLs.

I just don't think this is the biggest or most important problem CAP has to deal with.  If I were National Commander, I would have a lot higher priorities than fixing the uniform regulations.  Obviously, reasonable minds will vary on just how important spending hundreds of volunteer hours fixing the 39-1 is.

But just as obviously here on CAPTalk - based on the amount of time we spend talking about clothing and doodads worn on clothing - it is clearly the most important issue on CAP's plate.

Bottom line, consult the regs and follow the guidance of your commander.  At some point, I'm confident we will get a new 39-1 to argue about and pick apart.  It's what we do. 

But I'm going to avoid that committee like the plague.

[JoeTomasone]

Non-concur.

National Headquarters has no command or control function.  It is composed of about a hundred hard-working employees who have no authority to issue regulations or orders.

On the contrary, CAPR 5-4 spells out the duties of the National staff WRT implementing National Board policy (which the ICLs have stated that these changes come from):

2. Regulations and Manuals. Regulations and manuals may only be issued by National Headquarters. The following responsibilities relate to the management of regulations and manuals:

a. The National Board/National Executive Committee/Board of Governors will establish policies in accordance with the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol. The National Commander may establish immediate regulations under the provisions of Article XX, paragraph 3, of the Constitution of Civil Air Patrol, when circumstances dictate.

b. National Headquarters (NHQ) staff, including volunteer members of CAP assigned to the National Commander's staff, shall incorporate all policies, or changes to existing policies, into drafts of CAP regulations, manuals, or revisions thereof. The NHQ staff may also implement non-policy publications or changes to publications (e.g., address changes, points of contact, Air Force or other DoD mandated changes, statutory or other legal requirements) as needed.

c. The NHQ OPR shall coordinate draft regulations, manuals or revision thereof with NHQ directorates and, when applicable, other affected agencies in accordance with established NHQ CAP procedures. When a draft regulation, manual or revision is referred to a committee, the OPR will coordinate with that committee, in addition to the appropriate NHQ and CAP-USAF directorates. The OPR will edit the draft regulation, manual or revision based on inputs received during coordination and will submit the draft regulation to the NHQ publications manager to be posted for 30 days on the NHQ website for comment by the volunteer membership. The NHQ publications manager will promptly notify the National Board, CAP-USAF and such other parties as designated by the National Commander, National Vice Commander and/or National Chief of Staff, of such posting.

d. Resolving Comments. At the end of the comment period, the NHQ Publications Manager will send all comments received to the NHQ OPR. The NHQ OPR will evaluate all comments for inclusion into the regulation, manual or revision. Once complete, the OPR will attach a cover letter to the draft publication reflecting all comments received and whether the recommendation was incorporated or not. For those recommendations not incorporated, the cover letter will state the reason for not incorporating it. Draft regulations, manuals or revisions that govern Air Force assigned missions or CAP's use of federally provided resources will be forwarded to CAP-USAF for approval. CAP-USAF will forward approved draft regulations, manuals or revisions to the CAP/EX

e. The National Headquarters Executive Director (NHQ CAP/EX) shall review the final draft regulation, manual or revision. The final draft publication will then be sent it to the National Commander for approval. Once approved, the regulation, manual or revision will be sent to the NHQ publications manager for publication and distribution.

(Emphasis mine)

39-1 is stuck somewhere in (b) or (c).    The NB has voted to implement these items, but instead of following CAPR 5-4's procedure for incorporating these into 39-1, National merely issued ICLs (NIAW CAPR 5-4, as I contend).

I estimate it would take no more than 3 hours to incorporate all of the ICLs into 39-1 in draft form for comment.  While I agree that National does have several other (perhaps more pressing) things to attend to, I cannot believe that in the past 6 years no one has found a few hours to kick-start the rest of the process off.   On the contrary, if it had been done each time the NB had changed policies, then it wouldn't even be 3 hours of work.

Alternatively, the NB could have simply voted to change CAPR 5-4 to allow ICLs to be issued for routine items and to have no expiration date pending incorporation into existing publications.   However, they haven't done this either. 

I have no problem with following the will of the Board and wearing my uniform IAW 39-1 and ICLs, but it bothers me that National expects us to follow regulations, yet apparently sees fit to disregard them when it suits them.  That is a seriously bad precedent to set, mitigated only by the fact that only about 0.000000000000000000000001% of CAP Members ever actually READ the regulations anyway.

<sarcasm>
Maybe that's the solution - stop reading the regs and do whatever we want?   
</sarcasm>

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have actually been thinking of making a new 39-1. ll it would take was a couple of meetings, one to get the dress uniforms, and one to get the BDU uniforms, and about two days to get the manual written up. Shouldn't be too hard to do. If I do this, I will post is here on CT for you guys to check before I submit it for approval, or should I do it the other way around and submit it first and let it come out in draft form (if they accept it)?

[JoeTomasone]

Oh, and BTW, here's the relevant section of the CAP Constitution:

ARTICLE XX
REGULATIONS

1. To further the orderly administration of the activities, business and affairs of the Corporation, the
National Commander shall establish and maintain regulations which shall be applicable to all members of
Civil Air Patrol. These regulations will be based on policies established by the Board of Governors,
National Board, CAP-USAF, or law.

2. Except as provided in Article X paragraph 2.c., and paragraph 3 and 4 of this article, all CAP policies
(policies promulgated by the National Board or National Commander) shall be ratified by a majority vote
of the National Board.

3. The National Commander, upon declaration of a situation requiring immediate action due to a state of
emergency or an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, may promulgate
emergency regulations without the ratification of a majority vote of the National Board. Such emergency
regulation shall remain in force unless revoked by a majority vote of the National Board.

4. The Board of Governors may direct the National Commander to issue, modify or rescind regulations
or portions of regulations. Regulations, or portions of regulations issued, modified or rescinded by the
National Commander pursuant to written instructions of the Board of Governors shall not be subject to
the ratification by the National Board.

Emphasis, again, mine.

[Persona non grata]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: of course I have no faith in our leadership concerning this issue so dont count on the higher ups approving it.

[a2capt]

I have actually been thinking of making a new 39-1.

It's sorta half done sitting here, after I got a headache jumping back and forth. But the gist of it is all the documents inline with references and cites where things are superseded, and obsolete material struck out. Perhaps I should take a shot at finishing it.

[JoeTomasone]

I have actually been thinking of making a new 39-1. ll it would take was a couple of meetings, one to get the dress uniforms, and one to get the BDU uniforms, and about two days to get the manual written up. Shouldn't be too hard to do. If I do this, I will post is here on CT for you guys to check before I submit it for approval, or should I do it the other way around and submit it first and let it come out in draft form (if they accept it)?

Technically speaking (by the letter of the regulations), you can't:

b. National Headquarters (NHQ) staff, including volunteer members of CAP assigned to the National Commander's staff, shall incorporate all policies, or changes to existing policies, into drafts of CAP regulations, manuals, or revisions thereof.

If anyone could do it and submit it, I'd have been all over it years ago.

[Hawk200]

I have actually been thinking of making a new 39-1. ll it would take was a couple of meetings, one to get the dress uniforms, and one to get the BDU uniforms, and about two days to get the manual written up. Shouldn't be too hard to do. If I do this, I will post is here on CT for you guys to check before I submit it for approval, or should I do it the other way around and submit it first and let it come out in draft form (if they accept it)?

Technically speaking (by the letter of the regulations), you can't:

b. National Headquarters (NHQ) staff, including volunteer members of CAP assigned to the National Commander's staff, shall incorporate all policies, or changes to existing policies, into drafts of CAP regulations, manuals, or revisions thereof.

If anyone could do it and submit it, I'd have been all over it years ago.

You can't make an official publication, but anyone can create and submit a draft. Look at the section on Honor Guard uniforms that was included. It was obviously written by an amateur. And it's only marginally better than the Honor Guard "manual" that came out before.

I think that a well written draft of a proposed 39-1 might actually fly. I've been thinking about writing one myself, in the same format as 36-2903. Granted, there would be differences when including the corporate uniforms, but the general format could be utilized.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You can't make an official publication, but anyone can create and submit a draft. Look at the section on Honor Guard uniforms that was included. It was obviously written by an amateur. And it's only marginally better than the Honor Guard "manual" that came out before.

I think that a well written draft of a proposed 39-1 might actually fly. I've been thinking about writing one myself, in the same format as 36-2903. Granted, there would be differences when including the corporate uniforms, but the general format could be utilized.

I was thinking more of sticking with the format of the current 39-1 but change the big things that need changed, like wording, updating, to include getting rid of those gray shaded areas that make you think... if this is how it is now, then what in the world were they doing to this uniform before?

I would like to see the 39-1 made in a format that would be sent to each wing, edited to what that wing has implemented for use in their wing, such as different headgear and such. Then have each wing have the 39-1 available on their website instead of having the 39-1 on the NHQ website and then having memorandums on the wing website. Just have it all in one manual, such as CAPR39-1INWG, CAPR39-1ILWG, CAPR39-1CAWG. I think this would make things a bit easier. However I do see this being a problem when someone wants one in paper format. The only way we could get it on paper would be to print it ourselves or have VG sell each wing's different 39-1.

[jeders]

I would like to see the 39-1 made in a format that would be sent to each wing, edited to what that wing has implemented for use in their wing, such as different headgear and such. Then have each wing have the 39-1 available on their website instead of having the 39-1 on the NHQ website and then having memorandums on the wing website. Just have it all in one manual, such as CAPR39-1INWG, CAPR39-1ILWG, CAPR39-1CAWG. I think this would make things a bit easier. However I do see this being a problem when someone wants one in paper format. The only way we could get it on paper would be to print it ourselves or have VG sell each wing's different 39-1.

Yeah, no thanks. It's hard enough for them to keep one uniform manual updated, lets not make 53 (52 wings plus national). I'll gladly stick with wings writing and publishing properly approved supplements as needed. Plus, what does someone in Maine care what special hat we're wearing in Texas?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yeah, no thanks. It's hard enough for them to keep one uniform manual updated, lets not make 53 (52 wings plus national). I'll gladly stick with wings writing and publishing properly approved supplements as needed. Plus, what does someone in Maine care what special hat we're wearing in Texas?

It has nothing to do with you knowing what another wing is doing with their uniforms. It is all to do with the fact that there are some that have no idea that wings can even make uniform alterations for use in their own wing. Last week I got asked what in the world I was wearing, because they didn't know that there are supplements to the manual on the wing website.

[jeders]

Yeah, no thanks. It's hard enough for them to keep one uniform manual updated, lets not make 53 (52 wings plus national). I'll gladly stick with wings writing and publishing properly approved supplements as needed. Plus, what does someone in Maine care what special hat we're wearing in Texas?

It has nothing to do with you knowing what another wing is doing with their uniforms. It is all to do with the fact that there are some that have no idea that wings can even make uniform alterations for use in their own wing. Last week I got asked what in the world I was wearing, because they didn't know that there are supplements to the manual on the wing website.

I don't know about that case, but in my experience, when someone doesn't know that there's a supplement on the wing website, they also don't know how to find the regs on the national site. So I can appreciate why this might be helpful, but I doubt that it will make the slightest bit of difference.

[Ned]

On the contrary, CAPR 5-4 spells out the duties of the National staff WRT implementing National Board policy (which the ICLs have stated that these changes come from):

I stand by my statement.  Only the volunteer leadership can make policy or give orders (which includes regulations).

Sure, the NHQ professionals and the volunteers on the National Staff can coordinate, incorporate, edit, revise, draft, and re-draft as directed.  But it ain't an enforceable regulation or order until some combination of the BoG/NB/NEC and the National Commander says it is.

None of the professionals NHQ has command authority over any member of CAP.

You may be right as to the status of any pending 39-1 revisions.  But the bottom line remains - consult the regulations and follow the guidance of your commander.

[Eclipse]

Last week I got asked what in the world I was wearing, because they didn't know that there are supplements to the manual on the wing website.

What were you wearing?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Blue beret.

[davidsinn]

Blue beret.

I'm assuming you were in an operational environment per the supplement?