So, you think our PD program is weak? What needs to be added?

[Eclipse]

About half of my seniors would walk if required to do D&C and stand formations.....even for a weekend.

I have real trouble being sympathetic about people who choose not to play the whole game...

[EMT-83]

Our seniors stand for opening and closing formation every week. What's the big deal?

[JeffDG]

About half of my seniors would walk if required to do D&C and stand formations.....even for a weekend.

I have real trouble being sympathetic about people who choose not to play the whole game...

When you're paying people, then you get to dictate that they participate in the "whole game".  But so long as you have a group of unpaid volunteers, then it's for them to decide if they want to donate their time  for ES only and leave the mickey-mouse to the cadet/composite units.

With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations.  I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD.  Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

YES.

[Ned]

With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations.  I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD.  Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?

Non-concur.  CAP indeed has adopted military customs and courtesies throughout the organization.  Since about 1942, IIRC. 

And, yes, junior officers normally salute senior officers, particularly when in uniform and a salute is othewise approrpiate.  It's a . . . courtesy. 

(And the situation you describe is not that unusual in the armed forces, in any event.  I spent a couple of years as a Detachment Commander for an MP Battalion Headquarters.  I was a captain, but in my unit were at least four officers senior to me, including the O5 battalion commander and the O4 S-3.  I was the genuine UCMJ unit commander, but I can assure you that I saluted them smartly and took direction from them.  I understand the same thing happens routinely with aircraft commanders in the AF.)

[arajca]

Considering that most briefing occur indoors, who would be initiating the salute? The Lt Col pilot coming to be briefed or the 1st Lt doing the briefing?

[Eclipse]

When you're paying people, then you get to dictate that they participate in the "whole game".  But so long as you have a group of unpaid volunteers, then it's for them to decide if they want to donate their time  for ES only and leave the mickey-mouse to the cadet/composite units.

That is not how it works.  If you, or the member really feels our military courtesies are Mickey Mouse, perhaps cert is a better option.

With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations.  I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD.  Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?

CAP grade and courtesies are never, ever dispensed with.  You don't salute indoors, but outside, of course salutes are expected, unless for a safety reason an area has been designated no salute.

Where do people come up with these ideas?

[davidsinn]

If you, or the member really feels our military courtesies are Mickey Mouse, perhaps cert is a better option.

Even CERT has standards major.

[JohnKachenmeister]

When the Group commander (Major) enters the room where my squadron is meeting, I (Lt Col) call the room to attention.  No, not on a mission when people are moving around faster than p.o.'ed fire ants, but on his initial arrival, yes.

We don't have time for drill at meetings, but all of my officers have to undergo the OTS weekend, and they will get about 90 minutes of drill.  Not much, but enough to know a little of the basics.  If, at some point in the future, one of my officers is tapped to command a cadet or composite squadron, that 90 minutes of training might come in handy.  My job as commander is to prepare them for greater responsibility. 

[RiverAux]

The training program used by the South Carolina State Guard (a state defense force) may be of interest to those wondering just what might be possible.  They've got a progression of courses for leaders almost all of which are 5 full weekends long with a written test at the end of each weekend.   They may sleep overnight at an armory for free or somewhere else if they want to pay.  Meals are on their own. 

Warrior Leader course (1st step in NCO training)
Advanced Leadership course (low level NCOs)
First Sergeants Course
Officer Basic Course
Captains Career Course
Senior Officers Course

Compared to CAP (and most other SDFs from what I can tell) this is a VERY aggressive training program but they manage to get volunteers for it. 

http://www.scsgschools.org/index.html

[JohnKachenmeister]

Most SDF's that I am aware of have a mandatory annual training, usually 1 week to 10 days.  No pay.

Ohio had its OCS and NCO training during this period.

[cap235629]

how about starting with the basics like updating the current PD requirements. I would love to complete ES but the ECI course is outdated and useless....

[Eclipse]

how about starting with the basics like updating the current PD requirements. I would love to complete ES but the ECI course is outdated and useless....

And no longer required, as pointed out here on a number of occasions.

[cap235629]

it is discretionary last I heard but I can not locate a specific cite, any help would be appreciated. If the course is no longer required I have completed everything for my senior rating.  I was gigged on this on our last SUI so it is important that I finish this.....

[Eclipse]

I think your best bet would be to ping the KB on this or just hit John Desmaris directly.

It is from him, through my Wing ESO, that this information comes, and my wing has not required it for several years.

If he replies in a way that can be made public it would help a lot of people.

[flyboy53]

Think of it also from a safety issue. If you are not disciplined or lack the physical conditioning necessary to perform many CAP duties, you become a safety and liability issue.

Its sad to see such a fine organization bow to noncontents that have essentially enabled us to have less standards as senior members than volunteer firemen.

We used to be such a priemer organization. Now we dumb down our standards, lawyer up to talke out small businesses over licencing issues and we now have a history of senior leadership (one is enough) that cheat and politic their way into dictatorial positions all for the sake of a title.

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ Amen, Brother!

We are the ONLY American military auxiliary with a battle history, yet we have people who refuse to wear the uniform of the United States, and who threaten to quit if asked to perform any duty approaching a military standard.

It is a long crawl out of the toilet.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

It is a long crawl out of the toilet.

Not to mention you come out smelling like crap.

[Capt Rivera]

Hawk:

We TRIED to do multiple weekends/multiple saturdays, but our group is as busy as a mongoose in a cobra pit, and it became too much of a PITA to schedule and manage.  Plus the local commanders wanted their people trained up quicker so they can use them. Our current training goes from 0700 on Saturday to 2030 with two breaks for meals, and 0800 to 1630 on Sunday.
We also tried to award 2nd Lt. to graduates of the program, waiving the 6-month TIG requirement.  National HQ disapproved our request for an exception to policy.

We discuss the senior program awards during the PD class, and the cadet awards briefly in the Cadet Programs class.  I also have a powerpoint on CAP awards, but the schedule is pretty full, and I have not been able to work it in.  I keep it in reserve in case an instructor finishes early.  In the room where the training takes place in my HQ are posters with CAP awards, insignia, and history.

Would you mind sharing more about the course? Whats covered, material, etc.?

[nesagsar]

From what I am reading I hold my Boy Scouts to a higher standard than CAP holds it's Senior Members.