White aviator shirt

[Hawk200]

To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt that as a legitimate reason, especially considering how often this same discussion pops up.

There have been loads upon loads of really good ideas for uniforms that looked nothing like the CSU but still looked good. However, nothing gets done. Either posters here think that this forum is a direct line to the BoG and their proposal will just automatically be adopted; or they're thinking that they don't need to do anything, it's somebody else's job.

It's a known fact that people would rather complain than change. Seems like the newest thing seems to be to complain about desired change that doesn't happen. I guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

[Eclipse]

To allow those who have earned the bling to wear their bling.

Ok, so instead of creating a whole new uniform which will cost a lot of money, why not put together a proposal to add ribbons to the blazer in some way.

Because a ribbon rack on a civilian jacket does look right.

And the blazer is allowed one mini medal when being substituted for the mess dress.

Yes, it is.  In the best tradition of the Veteran's of Labor medal, however that is hardly the same as the plumage worn by those in
a military variant of mess dress.

[Eclipse]

I guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

What, specifically, would you suggest be done?

When they announced the CSU was to be retired, with no real explanation as to why, there was enough gnashing of teeth from the field that they delayed the sundown almost two years.

The they announced a moratorium on any uniform changes until after the above.

So until the moratorium expires or is lifted, there isn't even a channel to have these discussions officially.  NHQ has not asked for any comment on uniform designs, but considering the visibility of this forum to any number of board members, one could certainly be reasonable in assuming these conversations are happening on the back channel.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yes, it is.  In the best tradition of the Veteran's of Labor medal, however that is hardly the same as the plumage worn by those in
a military variant of mess dress.

I agree, and that is the problem. To me it looks and feels like half of our officers are overlooked in the uniform department. I know that is not the true case, I know that there have been quite a few attempts at giving them a good looking uniform, it just hasn't been able to be done as of yet. Everyone of us in CAP deserves a good looking full uniform to post our resumes on.

I don't know the process of sending up a uniform proposal, but I would like to know. I just know I don't have a good enough one to send up.

[Eclipse]

There is nothing wrong with the whites as they are.  The entirety of the situation is fixed with smart-looking civilian variant of
the military-style service coat.

That's it - nothing fancy, we don't need hats, or special pants, or anything else.

Just a decent jacket that makes people less "different" than their peers.  Black or gray in the same cut as the USAF jacket and we all move on to the next problem.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is nothing wrong with the whites as they are.  The entirety of the situation is fixed with smart-looking civilian variant of
the military-style service coat.

That's it - nothing fancy, we don't need hats, or special pants, or anything else.

Just a decent jacket that makes people less "different" than their peers.  Black or gray in the same cut as the USAF jacket and we all move on to the next problem.

I could go for black. No hat, ok, I just thought it would be nice for them for a little extra pride, lets face it a little pride can go a long ways. But an entire gray dress uniform? I don't know about you but a gray service dress type uniform was ruined for me between 1939 and 1945.

[Hawk200]

I guess that whole "entitlement" attitude that I see doesn't really extend to actually doing something about getting whatever is desired.

What, specifically, would you suggest be done?

When they announced the CSU was to be retired, with no real explanation as to why, there was enough gnashing of teeth from the field that they delayed the sundown almost two years.

The they announced a moratorium on any uniform changes until after the above.

So until the moratorium expires or is lifted, there isn't even a channel to have these discussions officially.  NHQ has not asked for any comment on uniform designs, but considering the visibility of this forum to any number of board members, one could certainly be reasonable in assuming these conversations are happening on the back channel.

Did you even read the whole thing or just skip to the last sentence? I am not suggesting that anything be done, just noting that nothing gets done. How many times has this same thing been rehashed on forums, Eclipse? How many years does it go back?

Generally, the behavior seems to be "I deserve a cookie!"

Then, there are complaints when the cookie doesn't materialize: "Where's my cookie?"

Information is received: "Oh, you've just got to go get it, it's over there."

Follow on complaint: "What? I've got to go get it myself? Someone should be bringing it to me!"

Response: "No, if you want it, you just go get it."

Final complaints, either "Someone should be bringing it to me, I deserve it!" or "That's not fair, I shouldn't have to do anything for it!"

Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

[Ned]

Either posters here think that this forum is a direct line to the BoG and their proposal will just automatically be adopted ( . . .)

I suppose you will just have to take my word on it, but the BoG will never, ever, EVER! involve itself in these sorts of uniform issues.

Son, you're on your own!

Ned Lee

(Did I mention "never"?)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

I may be missing part of what you are saying.

This is nothing that I am demanding, it isn't even for me. I wear the USAF style uniform anyways. I just think that those who do wear the corporate uniforms should have a nice jacket that they can wear their stuff on and look good. It isn't a demand for me, it isn't a demand for them, it is a thing that I want to see happen for them. They do deserve it, they have earned the  right to a service jacket of some type to show their awards and decorations that they have earned. Did I get it or did I miss something?

[Hawk200]

Such a scenario demonstrates the "entitlement" without commitment. Getting a little sour on those that demand reward or accomodation, but don't show any effort or willpower in acquiring it. (Not saying manfred is an example, just mentioning the history of it.)

I may be missing part of what you are saying.

This is nothing that I am demanding, it isn't even for me. I wear the USAF style uniform anyways. I just think that those who do wear the corporate uniforms should have a nice jacket that they can wear their stuff on and look good. It isn't a demand for me, it isn't a demand for them, it is a thing that I want to see happen for them. They do deserve it, they have earned the  right to a service jacket of some type to show their awards and decorations that they have earned. Did I get it or did I miss something?

No, you didn't miss anything. That was basically a history lesson. I did the same thing a few years, designed something, got feedback, even sent it up the chain. Got it back about seven months later with reply that basically said "Nobody's interested in this proposal, you can have it back."

Spent the time working on something that could very well have been adopted if more than just a handful of people had done something with it.

You have enthusiasm, and that's good. But don't be surprised if your ideas don't get adopted. There are people that go get their own cookie, and there are others that think that it should not only be brought to them, but fed to them as well.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree that some want hand fed, but then again...

I do want to work on a new jacket, I think it is well deserved. If they say no, oh well, back to the drawing board, and keep doing it until they find one they like. I just don't know how many different jackets you can suggest before you start regurgitating the same things over and over again.

You are right, a uniform needs to be designed by more than just one or two people. You do need the input of as many people as possible.I just don't know how many are willing to put in the work and the ideas.

[arajca]

I did the same thing a few years, designed something, got feedback, even sent it up the chain. Got it back about seven months later with reply that basically said "Nobody's interested in this proposal, you can have it back."

At least you heard something back. I never even got that much.

[Hawk200]

You are right, a uniform needs to be designed by more than just one or two people. You do need the input of as many people as possible.I just don't know how many are willing to put in the work and the ideas.

That's kind of the problem. Many will say they want something, but fail when it came to the work. The idea I had I sent out to a few people across the country. If we had all submitted it, it probably would have gone up. Then again, maybe everyone did.

At least you heard something back. I never even got that much.

I'm wondering how far it even went. I've also suspected that the others got the same reply after it sat in someone's box, then just got sent back because they didn't want to bother with it.

[Ned]

For better or worse (mostly worse  ), most uniform changes come about because a single wing commander puts it forward as an agenda item at a NB meeting.  And like with any agenda item, the real work comes with politicking and arm-twisting before the meeting to line up the support necessary.  Wing commanders talk amongst themselves a lot before the meetings on precisely such issues.

When I am a primary staffer, one of my jobs is to look at upcoming agendas and prepare position papers for the boss on agenda items that touch on my AO.  Basically why I think it is a good or a bad idea.  But I think every staff officer has had the experience of spending a couple hours on a well-composed position paper and then have their boss vote the other way simply because the wing commander owed some other wing commander a favor, or had a 30-second conversation with the proposing wing commander and "he convinced me it was a good idea, so I voted for it."  Sigh.

So, practically speaking, anyone with a uniform idea would be best served by buttonholing the wing commander at a hospitality room rather than patiently submitting something through staff channels and waiting for feedback.

It shouldn't be that way of course.  But there it is.

[Hawk200]

For better or worse (mostly worse  ), most uniform changes come about because a single wing commander puts it forward as an agenda item at a NB meeting.  And like with any agenda item, the real work comes with politicking and arm-twisting before the meeting to line up the support necessary.  Wing commanders talk amongst themselves a lot before the meetings on precisely such issues.

When I am a primary staffer, one of my jobs is to look at upcoming agendas and prepare position papers for the boss on agenda items that touch on my AO.  Basically why I think it is a good or a bad idea.  But I think every staff officer has had the experience of spending a couple hours on a well-composed position paper and then have their boss vote the other way simply because the wing commander owed some other wing commander a favor, or had a 30-second conversation with the proposing wing commander and "he convinced me it was a good idea, so I voted for it."  Sigh.

So, practically speaking, anyone with a uniform idea would be best served by buttonholing the wing commander at a hospitality room rather than patiently submitting something through staff channels and waiting for feedback.

It shouldn't be that way of course.  But there it is.

Well, that's food for thought.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Here's my question, what's wrong with the CAP blazer combo?

There are quite a few CAP members, myself included, who frankly dislike the grey/white/blazer.

It looks more like a Realtor (no slight intended to Realtors, I used to work in that business) than aviation of any kind.

For better, worse or otherwise, the colour of aviation is blue, not grey.  It has been ever since the newly-formed Royal Air Force took over a bunch of Russian Hussar grey-blue uniforms in about 1918.  Airline crew the world over tend to wear blue (or black).  With the exception of the wartime USAAF, I have not seen an air force anywhere in the world that wears grey, except for the former East Germany, and they wore blue piping:



I personally find the combination of grey and white jarring in contrast, and it doesn't look "slimming" on heavier people.  Even a commercially available blue airline-type shirt would lessen that.

FWIW, I can and do wear the AF-style...but I would like an option in case I can't someday that doesn't look like the German Bundeswehr (no slight intended to our German allies).

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think if we were to have one jacket for the corporate uniform that would work for both service and mess dress, like this.

Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

[cap235629]

I think if we were to have one jacket for the corporate uniform that would work for both service and mess dress, like this.

Take your pick, Black, blue, or gray.

Pants the same color, or if the jacket is blue, go with gray pants.

Picture is missing

[Eclipse]

There are only so many colors that make sense for a paramilitary uniform, and only so many ways to cut a suit jacket, unless you want to stray into something wholly custom, whatever we consider will always look like "something else".

The current USAF service coat is really just a civilian blazer with epaulets, without accouterments it isn't very "military" looking at all.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

This is the normal wear set up.

This is the Formal wear set up.

Did these work?