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U-Boat name

Started by 3xtr3m3gr33n, December 02, 2010, 08:48:28 PM

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3xtr3m3gr33n

Does Anyone know the names of the two U-Boats that Civil Air Patrol Sunk during WW2?

bosshawk

I have never heard of the Germans assigning names to their U boats, just a number: U-XXX.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

MICT1362

Correct, U-Boats were only officially given a U-###.  Some of them had nicknames from their crews, but nothing official.  When I saw this thread, I started doing some research.  I cannot find any specifics on dates, locations, or boats.  I have found where a couple of the boats that were supposed to be our kills were actually proven to be across the atlantic or returned to base.  So it appears that this is a big mystery.  It would be awesome if NHQ and the Historians could shed some light on this subject. 

Good Questions!  I hadn't ever though about it.

-Paramedic

DakRadz

And I believe we only have 1 confirmed- the other is a strong unconfirmed/rumor/legend/lost in Santa's toy bag.

MICT1362

I am finding more and more infor that says we may not truly have any... Ooooops.

-Paramedic

DakRadz

Quote from: MICT1362 on December 02, 2010, 09:59:51 PM
I am finding more and more infor that says we may not truly have any... Ooooops.

-Paramedic
You're right, sir- there is a lot of info conflicting out there.

Personally, I see it as akin to the JFK assassination; yes, maybe there were others involved- but generally Lee Harvey Oswald is accepted as the only shooter.
CAP is generally credited with one sink.

MICT1362

I do not doubt in any way that we were involved with the destruction of some U-Boats.  But all of the material that I am finding credits CAP with a crippling blow, and the kill being awarded to a Navy Destoryer or CG Aircraft a couple of days later.  Keep looking though.  It would be awesome to link everything back and make sure that we actually get credit.

-Paramedic

James Shaw

As stated by others: they were never officially named but did have nicknames. We do not know for sure which one it was. We do have copies of log pages that were blacked out by the Navy at the time.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - SER-SO
USCGA:2019 - BC-TDI/National Safety Team
SGAUS: 2017 - MEMS Academy State Director (Iowa)

MICT1362

Has CAP ever tried to verify which boat(s) we sank?  I think that this would be a pretty important part of our history to know.  I wouldn't think that this would be classified information...  Might be something that the National historical team should look into.

-Paremedic

Smithsonia

#9
These have been posted before but do require the curious to read.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33383846/WWII-1942-U-Boat-Monthly-Report-Dec
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33334781/WWII-1943-U-Boat-Monthly-Report-June

This posting and many similar ones come from Mark Hess' TeamCAP library.

Most (many) U boats went down without identification just location of engagement and perhaps the sub-type. Unless items surfaced from the cracked hulls that ID the particular sub and those items would have been recovered by the Navy or Coast Guard. That ID would be reported in the semi monthly briefer, like the one at the address above.

Allied ships were ID'd, often by their SOS but sometimes by debris or survivors, but not necessarily the Germans. Also, there was no reason to tell the Germans exactly what we sunk and what might have meant its death by accident or misadventure. "Let'em think we sunk'em all" - Adm. King.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

RiverAux

I once wrote to the guy who wrote the definitive book on uboat sinkings and he had no knowledge of any that could be directly linked to CAP.  Does it mean that we didn't sink any?  Not necessarily, but it sure would make me a lot more confident of the claims if we had this information nailed down since mistakenly claiming sinkings was common. 

Smithsonia

#11
Confusion on names, dates, and places is easy to explain. SEE HERE
This account is from a Coast Guard Wigeon Attack and UBoat sinking:
http://www.pastfoundation.org/U166/WhiteandBoggs.htm
The area of the sinking is the mouth of the Mississippi. The UBoat's number is under review.

In the July August 2010 Water Flying Magazine Page 25--28 a similar account is attributed to the CAP. The only difference is the CAP sinking is reported as July 11 '42 and the Coast Guard Attack is Aug. 1st '42. Also the area is just off the New Jersey Coast. Plane is the same Twin Engine Grumman Widgeon. The same 325 lb. depth charge. In both stories several of the names are the same. I haven't done a full shake down of either story... however, over time there seems to be mixed facts among these two similar events.
This often occurs and I need more time to tease out the pieces and parts.

Neprud in Flying Minute Men only states, and I quote. The Coastal Patrols were officially credited:
"Pilot and Observers flew over 24 million miles. Spotted 173 submarines. Dropped depth charges against 57 and were officially credited with sinking or damaging two, in addition to those sunk by Army and Navy Aircraft called in for the kill by CAP.' You'll find Neprud's facts are most illusive throughout this book. "Officially Credited" and actually sunk the submarine... may mean two different things depending on who's keeping score.

Here's another Air Force/Army Air Corps Anti Sub monthly report from the Mark Hess Library:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/44562072/WWII-1943-U-Boat-Monthly-Report-Jan
Being that these reports go back to the previous 6 months - this one should cover both incidences mentioned above. So you can now figure it out for yourself. Try this - read and research and tell me what happened.

In Conclusion the possibilities are -  CAP really sank (glug glug glug) a UBOAT but the date, time, and or place are now confused OR we were given a "mercy kill" - as opposed to a complete fabrication which is most unlikely - This credit came from a fellow service as a well done thanks from the Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard. A Mercy kill is easy to explain because the fatal blow in a running gun battle is almost always impossible to definitively determine. Best human guesses will do when attributing credit under these dynamic circumstances.

In this same vein... who's to say that in the 57 attacks mentioned above - we didn't deserve more "sinkings", "kills" and "credit". "Who is to say" is the same score keeping "best guessers."
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Flying Pig

#12
  Funny how it was such a "significant" event in CAPs history but nobody knows anything about it or cant agree on what actually happened. 

RiverAux

Not unusual at all for what, in the context of the war, are totally insignificant events with few witnesses, few original records, and no physical evidence.  Try researching a major event with thousands of participants and see how easy it is to come up with a consistent story. 

NCRblues

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 03, 2010, 07:04:31 PM
  Funny how it was such a "significant" event in CAPs history but nobody knows anything about it or cant agree on what actually happened.

Its kind of amazing, if you really get into history, really delve into it, most of the "histroy" the average American knows is either way off or just down right wrong.

A professor i had always made us look at things from the enemy viewpoint. Always 2 sides to every story, and the one side that comes out on top at the end gets to write the histroy books....
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Smithsonia

#15
War is <heck>NOT CSI Miami. There is always a reasonable doubt about something. As a Historian your duty is to narrow that window of doubt through research and fact finding. Slow motion instant replay wasn't invented until the 60s. DNA tests came in the 80s. Dash board cams came along in the 90s.The overly sceptical are applying "a seeing is believing You tube trained brain" to a purpose that is not part of that era. There's not much one can do but deeply delve into all the best research one can, find, and report whatcha got. Pilots were
"Officially Credited" with kills in every air theater of the war from the Battle of Britain on.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JohnKachenmeister

OK, you are attacking a U-Boat, that in all likelihood is firing back at you.  You drop your ordnance, and watch the explosion.  Can we forgive the aircrew for not recording a number painted in 6-inch letters on the conning tower?

Whether CAP sank one or two is not as important as the strategic results of the battle.  We made 57 attacks in about 4 months, and thereafter the U-Boats withdrew, and we had no targets, no contacts.  I also believe it is safe to assume that when the Germans withdrew the subs from the coast, that Hap Arnold was not "cc'd" on the memo.  It is likely that CAP patrolled for maybe a full month with no contacts before we realized that the Nazis were gone.

That reduces the "Time-On-Target" to three months where 57 attacks were made.  90 days of opposed action divided by 57 attacks means an attack every 1.5 days, on average.

Sunk, damaged, or merely scared off, the fact is that CAP's actions brought an end to the enemy coastal campaign within 4 months.

In the Army, we call forcing your enemy to withdraw a "Victory."  Casualties are immaterial. 
Another former CAP officer

Smithsonia

#17
This isn't precisely on topic but is part of the "CAP Historian" issue.
1. CAP History program has always been part of the Public Affairs Program at CAP National. I do both public affairs and history in both CAP and professionally for a living. These are similar but different in important ways. Public Affairs is deadline driven. Meaning, give me the best information or story you got and we'll update it on the next publication cycle (deadline). However, history has time to work beyond the deadline dramas. To put this ethos into a practice - History should never be deadline driven, ever, ever, ever, never. It should be more intellectually rigorous than journalism.

2. Neprud's Flying Minute Men - seems to me - that they took reports from the field that were published in haste and then contracted Mr. Neprud to write up a narrative for the battle history of the CAP in WW2. Being that it was published in 1948 - there were 3 years to correct these initial field reports. They didn't. That means that it is not a work of history but an anthology of interesting anecdotes but not well researched stories.

I've found problems with every Flying Minutemen story (5 so far) that I have sought contemporary accounts. If I can find them... they were available to Neprud too... although he didn't have the internet... these stories were in morgues of Newspapers. So now I have 22 factual errors on 5 stories asserted by Mr. Neprud as truth. These are dates, names, and places... so this portion isn't an opinion. I am presenting the corrections to you as facts.

3. This is an opinion - History (Historian Program) seems to be influenced by the preferences of command or current fashion. I suggest that facts are the only credible authority in the History Program. Command should not act like the Pope and decide truth according to preeminence of rank. I have personally made this appeal directly to those with which I have contested this point. Actually they do not disagree in private. How this predilection came to be inside the program, I do not know.

In History there is never any matter which is settled by command. Facts are worthy. Facts win. Everything else is less. Any argument to the contrary breeds skepticism among members... which in this thread is apparent.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

RiverAux

Post war analysis of both German and American records are where people have gotten their information on actual confirmed uboat sinkings and who was responsible for them.  There was no way any Americans would have known which sub was sunk at the time.  Just because we haven't been able to match up the date and location of a CAP attack on a suspected sub with an approximate date and location at which a German sub went missing doesn't mean that the attack and sinking didn't happen -- but it would certainly be nice to know and would add credibility to our founding story. 

Keep in mind that I think elsewhere in Neprud he tells of CAP members making an attack on a whale that they thought was a sub. 

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 04, 2010, 12:46:34 AM
Sunk, damaged, or merely scared off, the fact is that CAP's actions brought an end to the enemy coastal campaign within 4 months.
As we discussed in another thread a few years ago, there is very slight evidence that CAP made such a huge difference.   

To put things into perspective, the Germans lost less than a dozen uboats off the US East Coast during the entire war (including ones that just went missing and haven't been attributed as being sunk) and even the Cuban Navy sank a uboat.  CAP certainly helped out some, but the vast majority of sinkings were by other forces, even during 1942.

This site seems to be the final word on this subject:  http://www.uboat.net/

Smithsonia

#19
The combined pressure of depth charge armed aircraft brought by all branches was a deciding factor in the Sub war. No matter if you flew Navy PBYs, Army Long range B-24s, British Lancasters, or CAP Widgeons... a difference was made from the air.

1. Even at Periscope depth the shape and form of a UBoat can be seen on a bright and sunny day from above. While surface ships would've missed the Uboat all together.

2. The number of miles covered by Surface ships as compared to aerial patrols meant the difference between hundreds of millions dollars in Destroyers that didn't need to be built versus dozen of $5,000 to $10,000 per unit CAP air planes. You could build a CAP Air Wing for what one Destroyer cost. We were just as we are now, the most cost efficient alternative.

3. The German's themselves stated that the routine employment of airborne weapons and constant harassment from the air kept UBoats submerged at 6 knots with limited visability as opposed to surface patrols at 2 to 3 times that speed and meant their subsurface fleet became ever more inefficient, ineffective, and eventually not worth the risk.

4. Where Anti Sub patrol planes were, eventually Uboats weren't.

5. These facts simply are not arguable. In 1942 the Navy was embarrassed by all of the Coastal shipping loses. They'd gladly take all the credit they could find. They needed the positive press. To have them award official credit to CAP... was no small thing.

6. Once the presence of Patrol Planes moved the danger lanes farther out to sea and coastal waters caravans and protected convoys became unnecessary - the available assets for other more pressing Trans-Atlantic duties is like building hundreds of extra Destroyers.

7. The German embargo of Britain eventually failed because American naval assets could then be forward deployed across the breadth of the Atlantic. It was a war that had the narrowest of margins for error, among the most amount of risk, and CAP was a near perfect quick response asset. Don't forget in '41 thru '43... Britain was close to starvation.   

So however you count the sinkings or damaging of 2 UBoats - the actual value of the CAP in WW 2 goes far beyond the little tactical battles, the small planes, the tiny bases, the old men in rubber flying suits, and was an absolute 100 percent, strategic success. 

Some credit is CAPs, that is undeniable. How much in precise terms is undetermined... that is the nature of war. The fact that our National language is not German is testament to the combined efforts of all services working in unison in 1942 and early '43.

"Nothing Beats the Heart of a Volunteer." Col. Jimmy Doolittle on the eve of his Tokyo Raid.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JohnKachenmeister

Thanks, Ed, that was exactly my point, except you said it better.

Credit for kills on submarines is STILL being disputed 70 years after the fact.  The problem is that a surface ship being forced to go underwater is an obvious sinking.  A submarine can operate normally underwater, and can escape sinking by doing what a cruiser cannot.

My point in the overall strategic sense of CAP's participation is merely a recognition that CAP's tactics changed from unarmed patrols to armed attacks, and within 90-120 days the Germans withdrew from the coast.  I believe the uptick in the tactical tempo was the deciding factor in Doenitz's decision to withdraw his force farther offshore.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes placed hundreds more combat assets into the fight fairly quickly, and made the German tactical situation untenable.

Another former CAP officer

Smithsonia

#21
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kach;
That is terribly nice of you to say.

My dad was a Navy Pilot in Korea. He once tangled with a North Korean Mig that went down. To this day he and another Navy pilot (his lead on this day) argued over who deserved that "kill". They were both there. There was another 2 men in the same fight. Everyone disagreed, if in a good humored way.

After listening to the argument hash-on for more than 50 years I am of the opinion that the Mig simply spun in after he overloaded his tail in an attempted high G yo yo switch against these two Corsairs in proximity to the ground.

I think it will be to the last man standing who will finally claim this air victory. So be it. The O-Club in heaven will eventually become tired of these two Navy "Aces" re-dog-fighting this long ago battle. By the way, neither man was credited with a kill for this engagement. Neither is happy with the Navy about this. I doubt the Navy cares.

The point being - War is a tough thing to divide up perfectly into neat boxes of credit.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JohnKachenmeister

They have an O-Club in Heaven?

Cool!  The one here at Patrick burned down.

The issue of the victory may have been decided if the North Korean pilot was a member, but then again, I doubt that he would be at the bar and say:  "Neither of you two Running Dog Capitalists shot me down, I was just a crappy pilot."
Another former CAP officer

BillB

One question that may never be answered unless someone goes through German navel records with a fine toothcomb. Were any of the CAP Coastal Patrol aircraft actually shot down by German U-boats? To the best of my limited knowledge, this has never been explored.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

I don't recall reading about any CAP airplanes that just went missing without explanation. 

James Shaw

Quote from: BillB on December 05, 2010, 12:36:55 PM
One question that may never be answered unless someone goes through German navel records with a fine toothcomb. Were any of the CAP Coastal Patrol aircraft actually shot down by German U-boats? To the best of my limited knowledge, this has never been explored.

We have a list of all of the tail numbers for aircraft that was used by CAP during that time. We have never found one that was "missing" from the list. Former historian Col Les Hopper did a very extensive check around that subject and never came up with anything.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - SER-SO
USCGA:2019 - BC-TDI/National Safety Team
SGAUS: 2017 - MEMS Academy State Director (Iowa)

JohnKachenmeister

Submarines would seldom "Stand and fight" during an air attack.  They would fire to reduce the effectiveness of the air attack while they dived.  The primary defense to an air attack for all subs then... theirs and ours... was to dive.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

I think there was a note in one Jan 1943 uboat reports that said that the first sub attack on an aircraft occurred that month.

Smithsonia

According to NHQ in a summary written by National Historian Col. Leonard Blascovic:
The First "Kill"

It was one of these larger planes armed with depth charges that made the first CAP "kill." Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, flying out of Atlantic City "CAP-Coastal Patrol Base 1", New Jersey, had just become airborne in a Grumman Widgeon (an amphibian, a plane that can land on land or water) when they received a message from another CAP patrol that "contact" had been made about 25 miles off the coast. The other patrol was low on fuel and was being forced to return to base, so Haggins and Farr sped to the area, while flying a scant 300 feet above the ocean.

When the Haggins-Farr patrol reached the area, no sub was in sight. Very shortly thereafter however, Major Farr spotted the U-boat as it cruised beneath the surface of the waves. After radioing to shore, and knowing that they could not accurately estimate the depth of the sub, the crew decided to follow the sub until (they hoped) it rose to periscope depth, when they would have a better chance of hitting the sub with their depth charges.

For over three hours they shadowed the U-boat and eventually ran low on fuel. Just before they had to turn back, the U-boat rose back up to periscope depth. Captain Haggins swung the plane around quickly and aligned it with the sub. He then began a gentle dive to 100 feet where he leveled of behind the sub�s periscope wake. Major Farr pulled the cable release and the first depth charge plummeted into the water just off the sub�s bow. Seconds later a large water and oil geyser erupted, the explosion literally blowing the sub�s forward portion out of the water. Shock waves from the blast rocked the patrol plane. As the sub sank below the surface, it left a huge oil slick as the target for the second run.

On the second run, the remaining depth charge was dropped squarely in the middle of the oil slick. After the second geyser had settled, pieces of debris began to float to the surface. The CAP Coastal Patrol�s first kill was confirmed!
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Kojack

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 03, 2010, 07:04:31 PM
  Funny how it was such a "significant" event in CAPs history but nobody knows anything about it or cant agree on what actually happened.

You're a cop, I'm a retired Cop.  How many bullets did you fire Officer?

I worked Homicide in the DC metropolitan area.  Wanna guess at how many times an officer SWORE he fired twice.....and his 15 round semi-auto was on empty when we check his gun with the slide locked back?

Not so surprising I think. ;)


I can imagine one of these attacks somewhat in this light....

"HOLY CRAP!  LOOK IT'S A F*****G SUBMARINE!"

"LINE IT UP LINE IT UP!!!!"   "I AM S**T THEIR SHOOTING AT US!"

(drop - bang)

"WHAT HAPPENED?"  "I DUNNO BUT THEIR GONE!"

"Whew....did you bring any spare underware?"

Was it a hit?  A sink?  Was there smoke?  De-brie?  No additional sign of the sub?

Now add that to the navigation of the day.  Just exactly where is that dead sub laying under how much water?

I'm not putting them down, I'm not saying they were not sinkings.  I'm just simply pointing out that there may be five instead of one or two. ;D


What they did in that day an era with what they had was nothing short of incredible.  Even if someday it turns out that not a single sub was even damaged, will it matter?

BillB

One question that has come up several times. Were any of the CAP aircraft on coastal patrol shot down by a U-boat? With the number of CAP aircraft missing on coastal patrol, it seems like it might be a possibility.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Major Lord

I think that CAP initially took credit for sinking U-869, off New Jersey. It was later found to have been killed by DE-252 and DE 331, without any CAP involvement. I have not been able to find any credible evidence that CAP actually sank an enemy vessel, but I have been lead to believe that there is some documentation showing we fired in anger....on something ( perhaps an enemy Sperm Whale....) I have also not been able to find any documentation that we were lawful combatants....we just sort of armed up and went hunting...most excellent! Where is that kind of CAP leadership when we need them the most? >:D

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

ol'fido

Just happened to watch Battle of the Atlantic on the Military Channel the other day. Of course, there is no mention of CAP in the episode about the first months after Germany declared war on the US and the losses we were taking on the East and Gulf coasts. However, they did interview the captain of the U-123 who said that they were "killed" or at least "reported killed"  numerous times during their cruises off the US coast.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

John Bryan

Another part of the World War II CAP story has been the German Admiral saying they withdrew "because of those [darn] red and yellow airplanes" i.e. CAP.

I have NEVER seen anyone name that German Naval Officer...it is always quoted as just a high ranking or German admiral. Does anyone know if the person has a name and if that quote can be proven?

davidsinn

Quote from: John Bryan on February 21, 2011, 11:38:11 PM
Another part of the World War II CAP story has been the German Admiral saying they withdrew "because of those [darn] red and yellow airplanes" i.e. CAP.

I have NEVER seen anyone name that German Naval Officer...it is always quoted as just a high ranking or German admiral. Does anyone know if the person has a name and if that quote can be proven?

I've seen it attributed to Dönitz but have yet to find prove of that. I honestly don't think it's a true quote.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn