Air University Tests ?

[a2capt]

We've pretty much got the same thing, though we have a "permanent" home (nothing is permanent unless you hold the deed or make the payments on the mortgage regularly), we have the metal boxes with combination locks, and they get locked in another cabinet unless it's being transported by the TCO to another facility to administer tests, or the occasional senior AU-CAP test, still. I've arranged for them to be done at other than meeting times due to people schedules and meeting duties.

[Lt Oliv]

So....you want to drive 6 hours one way every week we do testing so you can get the test from the wing HQ building?

I understand your concern about accountability.....how do we know the TCO is locking them up?  Well how do we know that any squadron is locking them up?  We ask to the see to container.  The TCO lets you see it.  It is that simple.  If he does not let you see it then you fail the squadron for test security.

As for being able to double check to see if it is stored properly........well if it at the squadron office with lots of public access then you want to make sure it is locked at all times.....so no one goes in and steals a test.  But at private residence....if the TCO forgets to lock the file up......we are protected by the fact that no one normally has access to the private home....and the TCO would be there to supervise anyone.

As for the LSAT, SAT, ACT comparison......when they start paying our TCO's and providing our squadrons with per manant/securable facilities....then maybe you would have a point.

You administer Air University/AFIADL tests weekly? I find that very difficult to believe.

Let me just tell you how the Navy has handled this situation in the past.

Promotion exams are sometimes offered "off site." This happened to me when I was scheduled to go on leave during the E-4 exam. To maintain the integrity of the test, the test was sent via overnight FedEx the day before the test and required the signature of the TCO.

Thus, the test did not just sit in a filing cabinet or in someone's home. It sat a higher level where it's integrity could be assured, and was passed to the TCO the day before. There was no break in custody, and since it was picked up either the day before or the day after, there was much less of a concern that the TCO cracked open the envelope and let someone study ahead.

[Eclipse]

Thus, the test did not just sit in a filing cabinet or in someone's home. It sat a higher level where it's integrity could be assured, and was passed to the TCO the day before. There was no break in custody, and since it was picked up either the day before or the day after, there was much less of a concern that the TCO cracked open the envelope and let someone study ahead.

No problem, in the Navy.

Group HQ is my state is anywhere from 1 hour to 3+ hours from the local unit, depending on the group.  Wing is 1-7. Who drives?  The candidate or the TCO?

This is one positive for online testing - in a year or two we won't need TCO's for seniors at all, and possibly not for cadets either.

[a2capt]

Yes you do. Not every test is online, the  milestones are still administered traditionally, and someone has to keep track of lockouts and resets on the online stuff.

[Eclipse]

Yes you do. Not every test is online, the  milestones are still administered traditionally, and someone has to keep track of lockouts and resets on the online stuff.

I said in a year or two, not today.  Once online testing hits a stride, the next thing will be milestone tests.

I'd be willing to bet the only thing not online ultimately will be Spaatz.

[BillB]

I've found that college AFROTC units have testing officers. the AU tests could be done there since USAF maintains control of the tests.

[Lt Oliv]

Thus, the test did not just sit in a filing cabinet or in someone's home. It sat a higher level where it's integrity could be assured, and was passed to the TCO the day before. There was no break in custody, and since it was picked up either the day before or the day after, there was much less of a concern that the TCO cracked open the envelope and let someone study ahead.

No problem, in the Navy.

Group HQ is my state is anywhere from 1 hour to 3+ hours from the local unit, depending on the group.  Wing is 1-7. Who drives?  The candidate or the TCO?

This is one positive for online testing - in a year or two we won't need TCO's for seniors at all, and possibly not for cadets either.

Eclipse,

Did you actually read my post? I ask because you seem to express little understanding that you did.

Let me repeat the Navy example.

The Navy maintains control of the tests higher up in the chain and when one needs to be sent down to a tenant command, it overnights the test to the local TCO.

Who is driving? Why is anyone driving? Is it your contention that your squadron is so off the grid that FedEx is unavailable or impractical?

If your squadron has a permanent meeting place, great, store the test there. If not, you keep it at Group (or Wing, if no Group) and they FedEx it to the squadron TCO the day before or the day off the test.

[Eclipse]

Yes, and you clearly missing the point.

Any reference to how the military or for that matter any other agency or organization with permanent facilities and full-time employees
handle their tests is irrelevant to CAP as we have no consistency of the former and none of the latter.

If your squadron has a permanent meeting place, great, store the test there. If not, you keep it at Group (or Wing, if no Group) and they FedEx it to the squadron TCO the day before or the day off the test.

No problem.

Who, exactly, is going to pay for that?

Where will they be shipped (remember, no permanent home).

What do you do with the materials after? (no pickup until the next day, and no guarantee there is a drop-box anywhere near the unit).

How is allowing the TCO to handle and store the materials at their home or office for one day any "better" than having them store them that way permanently?

Talk about over-complicating something simple to no advantage for anyone.

[Lt Oliv]

Yes, and you clearly missing the point.

Any reference to how the military or for that matter any other agency or organization with permanent facilities and full-time employees
handle their tests is irrelevant to CAP as we have no consistency of the former and none of the latter.

If your squadron has a permanent meeting place, great, store the test there. If not, you keep it at Group (or Wing, if no Group) and they FedEx it to the squadron TCO the day before or the day off the test.

No problem.

Who, exactly, is going to pay for that?

Where will they be shipped (remember, no permanent home).

What do you do with the materials after? (no pickup until the next day, and no guarantee there is a drop-box anywhere near the unit).

Talk about over-complicating something simple to no advantage for anyone.

You are aware that the tests are either FedExed or mailed anyway, right? Do you have an AFIADL fairy leaving them under your pillow? You just wait to send them out.

As for where it gets sent, go ahead and send it to the TCO at home or work! If you are administering a test that evening, you get the test earlier in the day and send it out when you are finished.

No drop location? Ever hear of a flat rate envelope? Is your squadron also nowhere near a mailbox?

No advantage to anyone? I actually like my tests to have the integrity maintained. I really like it when the TCO cannot just flop an AFIADL on their dining room table or letting someone study ahead.

Keeping these tests in private residences is not appropriate.

I'd recommend consulting your Wing IG on it. Because that very situation is just plain no good in our neck of the woods.

[Eclipse]

I'd recommend consulting your Wing IG on it. Because that very situation is just plain no good in our neck of the woods.

IG's have nothing to say, nor any interest in, things which comply with regulations.  They are not the secret police of CAP.

If you have a problem in your area, I suggest you file a complaint instead of insinuating this is a larger-scale issue, which it is not.

[arajca]

Unless they've changed, the AFIADL test come with a pre-addressed return envelope for the answer sheet. The TCO stores the test until the results come back, the destroys the test. Ergo, no return mail cost for the test.

As for those who say sending it out to the unit violates chain of custody, that's what tracking numbers are for. Every shipper provides them - even the USPS, if you send it receipt requested. When the driver/mailperson picks it up/takes possession of it, the company is responsible until it is signed for by the receipent. It they weren't acceptable to the AF, they'd be sending couriers out to deliver the tests. Believe it or not, the AF knows what our TCO system is and has accepted the limitaion and conditions placed upon us by the nature of our organization.

[tsrup]

There are CAP produced AU tests and non-CAP produced AU tests, with different rules.

CAP produced AU tests can be released to a subordinate unit by the Wing TCO. However, test security procedures must still be followed, and that doesn’t include being stored at a private residence.

It’s all spelled out in CAPR 50-4.

It is spelled out in CAPR 50-4,

however after reading the regulation, as long as the security requirements are met then there is no problem with it being a private residence.  The responsible parties just have to be accountable for the testing materials as long as it is there "turn" in the chain of control.

If that route were to be taken, the member would have to allow the IG to inspect their storage area at home for compliance if the need arose. 

[lordmonar]

Lt Oliv,

If you don't trust your people....it does not matter where you store the bloody test.  And at some point the tests still end up in the hands of the same TCO you don't trust. 

[a2capt]

Wing mails us a test, it comes to me, goes in the metal box. The senior member is notified that the test is available. I'll be a bit more flexible with the seniors as there are times when an hour can't be given up at the meeting. So if that means take the lock box with me so an evening at a mutually agreed location is needed, then thats what it is. I'll go there, they can come to me, whatever.

If cadets need additional time outside of the meeting for something like a milestone exam, and there's a weekend activity at the unit, I'll go do that too.

We are not the Air Force, the Navy, or whatever. We have to work with a couple hours a week and while the cadet program is somewhat autonomous, it is our job to make sure they don't run off the end of a cliff. If the senior staff is stretched thin, I'm not going to tell the cadets "sorry, but the safety officer needs to test, you can't do that activity tonight".

Yes, I know, someone else steps in, but you get the point I hope.