Ribbon positioning

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I know many CAP volunteers have questions about uniforms and how they are properly worn. Post any and all questions here. Just be sure to use as proper grammar as possible and be courteous so that you will be able to get the best responses. Trust me, Tact and grammar go along ways (I know mine is horrible, but I try).

My first question is, I have quite a few ribbons, and I would like to wear them all. I even have one that isn't on my signature. I need to offset them to the left in order to fit them on my size of jacket. The only one I can find is the Army standard for ribbons with the 1/8 inch space between ribbons. Is that allowed? I hope so. I ordered it from Vanguard, when it got here I called them and asked why I got the wrong one and they insisted that it was correct. I am pretty sure there is supposed to be zero space between ribbons for the USAF style service uniform. Am I correct that it is wrong, or are they?

[tsrup]

AFIK,
the answer is no, ribbons are not to be spaced.

Have you thought about switching to rows of four instead of three?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I can't find rows of four, Vanguard is out of them, other places you either have to special order them or they are just outrageously priced. I usually go  through US Cav. but their stuff isn't CAP compatible. I used to live literally (almost) next door to US Cav. I was able to get everything I needed there, But they don't sell BDUs anymore or any items (other than Army ribbons) that are compatible with USAF uniforms. If you know of an off path source, let me know. I would even go for the plastic "DIY" rack.

[spacecommand]

39-1, page 95, note 1

NOTES:
1. Ribbons will always be placed on wearer’s left with bottom row resting on, but not over, top edge of
left welt or pocket. When worn in rows of three, ribbons will be centered above the pocket between
the left and right pocket edges. Only to prevent the service coat lapel from covering the ribbons,
additional rows of ribbons containing less than three may be aligned with the left ribbon edge. The
top row of ribbons will be centered over the row immediately below. When worn in rows of four,
left edge of the ribbons may be aligned with the left edge of the welt or pocket or centered above the
left welt or pocket. Only to prevent the service coat lapel from covering the ribbons, additional row
of ribbons containing less than four may be aligned with the left welt or pocket edge with the top
row of ribbons centered over the row immediately below. There will be no space between the rows
of ribbons.

As to the other part of your post... I don't get it, post all questions in relation to uniforms in this one thread, instead of separate different posts in the forum designed for uniforms & awards, I don't see what purpose that fulfills...

[spacecommand]

I can't find rows of four, Vanguard is out of them, other places you either have to special order them or they are just outrageously priced. I usually go  through US Cav. but their stuff isn't CAP compatible. I used to live literally (almost) next door to US Cav. I was able to get everything I needed there, But they don't sell BDUs anymore or any items (other than Army ribbons) that are compatible with USAF uniforms. If you know of an off path source, let me know. I would even go for the plastic "DIY" rack.

Good ole hock shop:  Universal Ribbon Holder Kit
http://www.thehock.com/category/RIBBON-HOLDERS-6/rec/20

[AlphaSigOU]

Only the Army and the Marines allow 1/8" spacing between ribbon rows on service dress. Air Force (and by extension CAP) does not. On large ribbon racks, one or two rows may have up to four ribbons, further ribbon rows may be in ones, twos or threes flush to the wearer's left to clear the lapel. See my unofficial ribbon wear guide 'The proper wear of CAP ribbons' at the top of this forum.

Check the military side of Vanguard's web site; they might have ribbon holders that might fit your need.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Well, I just thought it would be nice that if someone has a question that there is one thread that they could try to go through instead of having a whole bunch of threads to sift through for an answer before they post a new thread. I spent about an hour sifting through threads earlier to find an answer to the question I just posted. It is rather irritating.

I know the 39-1 says that there is to be no space between the ribbons, but I also know that there are a whole bunch of addendums to the 39-1 and I can only find three, but have been told about others. That is another reason that so many come to CAPTalk for their questions. It is just easier to sift through one thread to find an answer than to go through over a hundred.

I thought the Hock Shop was no more.

[spacecommand]

The Hock Shop is still alive, they just can't sell any CAP distinctive items.  They can still sell items that are not CAP distinctive, they can't even use the words "Civil Air Patrol" apparently, so it is listed under Air Force Auxiliary instead.  The best part $zero shipping, and they are pretty fast (for me), faster then vanguard at least.

There have been no amendments to wearing ribbons with a space between the rows, thats an Army/Marine thing.  The Air Force does no space between the ribbons.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There have been no amendments to wearing ribbons with a space between the rows, thats an Army/Marine thing.  The Air Force does no space between the ribbons.

That's what I had thought, I was just told that that was allowed, so I wanted to make sure.

Next question. Is the flight jacket authorized to be worn with the BDU uniform? The 39-1 says that the flight jacket is the only jacket authorized for wear with the flight suit, and the BDU doesn't have a set "this is the only jacket allowed with the BDU uniform." I can't find anything in the 39-1 that prohibits the wear of the Flight jacket with the BDU uniform. If there is anything that does point out that there is only one authorized jacket for the BDU or that the flight jacket is prohibited to be worn with the BDU, please post it. Thank you.

[SarDragon]

Well, I just thought it would be nice that if someone has a question that there is one thread that they could try to go through instead of having a whole bunch of threads to sift through for an answer before they post a new thread. I spent about an hour sifting through threads earlier to find an answer to the question I just posted. It is rather irritating.

I know the 39-1 says that there is to be no space between the ribbons, but I also know that there are a whole bunch of addendums to the 39-1 and I can only find three, but have been told about others. That is another reason that so many come to CAPTalk for their questions. It is just easier to sift through one thread to find an answer than to go through over a hundred.

They aren't addenda, they are Interim change Letters (ICLs), and are available here. There are currently four in effect.

I thought the Hock Shop was no more.

They haven't gone out of business. They have just stopped selling CAP specific items.

[spacecommand]

There have been no amendments to wearing ribbons with a space between the rows, thats an Army/Marine thing.  The Air Force does no space between the ribbons.

That's what I had thought, I was just told that that was allowed, so I wanted to make sure.

Next question. Is the flight jacket authorized to be worn with the BDU uniform? The 39-1 says that the flight jacket is the only jacket authorized for wear with the flight suit, and the BDU doesn't have a set "this is the only jacket allowed with the BDU uniform." I can't find anything in the 39-1 that prohibits the wear of the Flight jacket with the BDU uniform. If there is anything that does point out that there is only one authorized jacket for the BDU or that the flight jacket is prohibited to be worn with the BDU, please post it. Thank you.

Page 62-63 of 39-1
Table 2-3. Men’s and Women’s Battle Dress Uniforms
Line 7 : Outergarmets
Field Jacket, Double Breasted All Weather Jacket, and Raincoat are the three that are listed.

[whatevah]

I know many CAP volunteers have questions about uniforms and how they are properly worn. Post any and all questions here. Just be sure to use as proper grammar as possible and be courteous so that you will be able to get the best responses. Trust me, Tact and grammar go along ways (I know mine is horrible, but I try).

The "Uniforms & Awards" section is for uniform questions.  If we wanted a single topic for uniform questions, we would have started one in "The Lobby" 5 years ago. And by now it would be over 100 pages long, making it very difficult to find one question buried in it.   If you have specific questions of your own, please ask them with an appropriate thread title. And, try searching instead of just looking through different topics. It saves quite a bit of time.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is nothing stating that those are the ONLY items to be worn. The Flight suit is very specific, you may only wear the flight jacket with the Flight suit, the flight suit may not be worn with any other outergarment.

The search tool doesn't work very well. I search for a topic and get things that are way off base, and sometimes I get nothing that corresponds to what I was searching for.  Then I go to search through individual threads and I find what I was looking for after searching for a long time.

[a2capt]

That kit with the brads and razor blade is really nice and produces a nice set of ribbons when you're done with it.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That kit with the brads and razor blade is really nice and produces a nice set of ribbons when you're done with it.

I used to use that when I was in the Army, I wish I had an extra one, I will be ordering one from the hock shop very soon.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Also, The PDF of the proper wear and display of ribbons doesn't state that there is to be no spacing between ribbons. I had searched through it and couldn't find anything that states ribbon spacing.

[SarDragon]

Also, The PDF of the proper wear and display of ribbons doesn't state that there is to be no spacing between ribbons. I had searched through it and couldn't find anything that states ribbon spacing.

Try CAPM 39-1, Table 5-4, Note 1, last sentence.

What's this PDF you're referring to? If it's not a CAPM or CAPR or ICL, then it's not official.

[Slim]

There is nothing stating that those are the ONLY items to be worn. The Flight suit is very specific, you may only wear the flight jacket with the Flight suit, the flight suit may not be worn with any other outergarment.

CAPM 39-1 is restrictive (as are most of our regs and manuals).  If the reg doesn't specifically say you can do something, then you can't.

I assume you're talking about the sage green USAF flight suit and woodland BDUs here.  The outerwear requirements for the blue BDUs, blue utility uniform and blue nomex flight suit aren't quite that restrictive.

The section on the flight suit states that the flight jacket is the only outerwear authorized.  Thus, that is the only jacket you can wear with it*.  Oddly though, the photo in the 39-1 for a flight jacket is the nylon MA-1, the nomex CWU-36P and -45P aren't mentioned.  Though I would contend that those meet the spirit of the reg as they are green flight jackets.

The section on BDUs specifies that the field jacket, all-weather coat, and raincoat are the only jackets authorized with that uniform.  The ICLs additionally authorize the woodland ECWCS parka with CAP grade identifier loop for wear with BDUs.  Those are the only jackets you can wear with that uniform combination*.

*-that is, if you want to be compliant with the uniform regs.

[AlphaSigOU]

Also, The PDF of the proper wear and display of ribbons doesn't state that there is to be no spacing between ribbons. I had searched through it and couldn't find anything that states ribbon spacing.

Try CAPM 39-1, Table 5-4, Note 1, last sentence.

What's this PDF you're referring to? If it's not a CAPM or CAPR or ICL, then it's not official.

The proper wear of CAP ribbons, at the top of this section. I've stated this on the cover sheet - this is an UNOFFICIAL wear guide.

[Eclipse]

There are (approximately) 1 Google (hint) Gazillion sources for ribbon racks and holders on the web, not to mention (hint) AAFES, your semi-local MCSS, and related stores.

You may not wear the sage flight jacket with the BDU, however I suppose you could make the argument that a non-sage flight jacket could be worn without insignia over the blue field uniform since civilian jackets are allowed.

If it has insignia on it, it isn't a "civilian" garment anymore.