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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Mission Observer/Scanner training
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Author Topic: Mission Observer/Scanner training  (Read 4255 times)
BradM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 267
Unit: PCR-CA-282

« on: October 05, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »

Hello, is it always required to have a Nomex flight suit, all leather boots, and Nomex or leather gloves to start Mission Observer or Mission Scanner training? Are other uniforms also approved?

See:
http://sarcityusa.org/classes.php#4

Duration: 16 hours
Scanner and Observer Training: 8, 9 and 10 October 2010

  SARCity is hosted by the Barstow Desert Rescue Squad in conjunction with the San Bernardino County Sheriff, OES, and Barstow College. As part of SARCity, Civil Air Patrol conducts a Mission Scanner class, which is open to non-CAP attendees.

Saturday class will be held at Daggett Airport (DAG); specifically at the Headquarters of

  NTC Aviation Company, US ARMY
39500 National Trails Highway
Daggett, CA 92327-4595

This is a military installation. All participants are required to wear a uniform in accordance with CAPR 39-1and, in the tradition of the United States Military, be cleaned, boots polished, hair cut, etc.

  The first 10 MO & MS registrants will each be scheduled for two training flights. Those flights commence Sunday, 0730 thru 1600. The crew will be a well qualified MP and a MO/MS trainer. The MO student will fly right front; the scanner trainee will ride right back, and instructor left back. That instructor will train both the MO & MS student.

MS and MO prerequisites: minimum age 18, wear a Nomex flight suit (sometimes the label will state “Aramid”) with all-leather boots, and have Nomex or leather gloves. 
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BRAD MELILLO, 1st Lt, CAP
Finance Officer
Asst. Professional Development Officer
Brackett Composite Squadron 64
La Verne, CA
SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 04:31:59 PM »

In your wing, at least it used to be.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
BradM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 267
Unit: PCR-CA-282

« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 04:37:13 PM »

In your wing, at least it used to be.

I want to take MO and MS training the next time its offered. Any suggestions on where to get a Nomex flight suit and boots? Vanguard? ;) or is there a more competitive alternative? How about an Air Force store?
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BRAD MELILLO, 1st Lt, CAP
Finance Officer
Asst. Professional Development Officer
Brackett Composite Squadron 64
La Verne, CA
vento
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 665

« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 04:38:14 PM »

I was at SARCity last year (the requirement was the same). Most of MP/MO/MS trainees flew their missions without gloves. They did however wear all leather boots.
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BradM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 267
Unit: PCR-CA-282

« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 04:41:45 PM »

I was at SARCity last year (the requirement was the same). Most of MP/MO/MS trainees flew their missions without gloves. They did however wear all leather boots.

Are these the same boots that you can wear with the BDUs?
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BRAD MELILLO, 1st Lt, CAP
Finance Officer
Asst. Professional Development Officer
Brackett Composite Squadron 64
La Verne, CA
SarDragon
Resident Philosopher
***
Posts: 8,511
Unit: Gigawatts

« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 04:43:01 PM »

In your wing, at least it used to be.

I want to take MO and MS training the next time its offered. Any suggestions on where to get a Nomex flight suit and boots? Vanguard? ;) or is there a more competitive alternative? How about an Air Force store?

The suits available from Vanguard are brand new, and expensive.

There are deals for used suits on eBay all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for your size to show up, but the deals are there. I got a really nice blue one for $70. It took a little while to get one for a price I was willing to pay, but it was worth the wait.

Boots - shop around. Get something that fits your feet, and meet the all leather requirement.

Yes, same boots can be worn with BDUs.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
BradM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 267
Unit: PCR-CA-282

« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 04:45:50 PM »

In a sport jacket I'm a 42 Short. In a flight suit I would also be a 42S? I'm 5'7.5" tall (short) :)
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BRAD MELILLO, 1st Lt, CAP
Finance Officer
Asst. Professional Development Officer
Brackett Composite Squadron 64
La Verne, CA
vento
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 665

« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 04:46:11 PM »

Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html

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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,472

« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 04:53:18 PM »

In a sport jacket I'm a 42 Short. In a flight suit I would also be a 42S? I'm 5'7.5" tall (short) :)

Go the next size up. At 5'7.5', a standard chart shows you as a "short.". So you'd probably want a 44 Short.

Here's a chart from Gibson & Barnes (who absorbed flightsuits.com) : Size Chart

As for best shopping, I'd try eBay. I've gotten five from there at a total of $200 (yes, that's an average of $40 a piece). The suits are practically new. Sewed my stuff on them, was good to go.
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BradM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 267
Unit: PCR-CA-282

« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 05:01:57 PM »

Thank you all. I saved your recommended sites! :)
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BRAD MELILLO, 1st Lt, CAP
Finance Officer
Asst. Professional Development Officer
Brackett Composite Squadron 64
La Verne, CA
SarDragon
Resident Philosopher
***
Posts: 8,511
Unit: Gigawatts

« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 05:02:35 PM »

Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html




How so? They are all made to the same specs, and the Vanguard source varies according to the current contract, so there's no way of knowing the specific prior to ordering, anyway.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
vento
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 665

« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 05:09:11 PM »

Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html




How so? They are all made to the same specs, and the Vanguard source varies according to the current contract, so there's no way of knowing the specific prior to ordering, anyway.


I meant much better than Vanguard (pricing) when it comes to parting with my hard earned money from my own pocket.
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flyboy1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 889

« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 07:03:18 PM »

I would check with who ever is conducting the training.

Certainly a Nomex flight suit is important, expecially from a safety prospective, but if you were pursing that factor to the end, you'd be wearing Nomex gloves as well.

So, that brings us to the quandry of where to get one cheaply. I would check with the logistics guys to see if someone may have a serviceable flight suit in your size. Then I would start trolling e-bay or surplus stores, and see who can survey stuff at DRMO or land something declared surplus from an active/reserve or guard unit. Also, don't forget gun shows; you never know what might be sitting around cheap...I've outfitted two other aircrew members in my unit with serviceable helmet bags that were picked up at gun shows for five dollars each.

Remember that observers and scanners may not fly as often as the pilots in some wings, so as a last resort, buy it new. Also, be careful to not get one of those commercially-produced look-a-like military flight suits that are only cotton. However, I am aware of some units where the blue utility/flight suit seems the preferred uniform.

My flight suits and jackets are original from A/D and were not new when they were issued to me...as is my flight helmet and helmet bag. They've held up just fine, thank you very much. So, I can attest to the used stuff, as long as you're careful.

As far as a flight suit requirement for entering training, I really question that. BDUs, polo shirts, the blue utilities or flight suits should be acceptable for the ground training...they may even be passable for flight traiining. Afterall, we don't require cadets to wear flight suits for O-rides.

One other thing, the scanner/observer programmed learning guides put out by your wing are ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT!
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 9,182

« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2010, 07:12:19 PM »

I would also question the entire need for Nomex at all.

The used to be a PCR sup to 60-1 that required nomex....but it does not exist anymore.  I don't recall if CAWG still has one as well.  I seem to remember that they backed off that requirment.

It may just be someone who remembers the old and still going with "this is the way we always did it".

I may be wrong....and bearing in mind that the UOD can be set by the activity director....a $200 flight suit is pretty hefty price.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, MSgt, CAP
Nellis Composite Squadron
dbaran
Member

Posts: 76
Unit: PCR-CA-110

« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 11:22:18 PM »

This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

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davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,025
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 09:35:53 AM »

This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

How do you enforce something not in writing?
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,290
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 09:47:49 AM »

If you can live with a 42R here are a couple of sources

http://wardenssupplyco.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_10&products_id=107

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=591963

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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,459

« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 10:30:29 AM »

This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

How do you enforce something not in writing?

Wing Commander appoints the ICs for events, and gives orders that the UOD for flight crews is a nomex flight suit.

If the Wing Commander changes, so can the UOD.  Not everything needs to be a formal regulation, much of it can be handled through routine instructions flowing down the chain-of-command.
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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 717

« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2010, 10:47:47 AM »

What I find funny is the all leather boot requirement: 
However my USAF Issued flight approved boots are leather and NYLON with a gortex liner.  No where in the manufacture information is there anything about there being nomex, kevlar or PBI type fire resistant construction.

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 24,201

« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 11:01:56 AM »

How do you enforce something not in writing?

With great difficulty, plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and a health dose of bad feelings all around.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Mission Observer/Scanner training
 


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