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Author Topic: Vanguard and shipping  (Read 20214 times)
DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2010, 08:39:15 PM »

Radical idea incoming!

The patch is an identifier for both the Civil Air Patrol and her respective members world-wide.

Anyone familiar with CAP will recognize the words Composite, Cadet or Senior Squadron; even SER-GA-506 says something to a member. So the fellow CAP member recognizes these key markers in whatever form.

Include a landmark, a local name, an identifying and unique area attraction/piece of history, and now the General PublicTM knows you're "from round these here parts!"
This local community tie gets the GPTM citizen interested/asking questions.

At this point you explain CAP, what it is and does, and how it is local and you do NOT deploy nor recruit their children/themselves for the military.

Without nary a Prop-In-Triangle, the scourge-of-the-earth Triangle Thingy, or the words CAP, Civil Air Patrol, or variants thereof, you have successfully accomplished a dual mission.
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Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,106

« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2010, 08:53:51 PM »

Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.
That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of indentifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).

Can't agree, based on the situation...since we hardly ever see folks from the nearest CAP units, our patch is ours and represents what we go by.

The new unit we are forming will have its own as well.  Folks have already asked us that it will be.  It's not just for uniform useage anymore.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
FlyTiger77
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 624

« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2010, 09:15:53 PM »

Patch is going to be used as more than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.
That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of identifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).

I agree with Hawk.

None of the Army patches (and the Army's 81st IN Div originated the patch concept in WWI) I have ever worn (and there have been many) indicated US Army anywhere on them. My favorite (the only one I have framed) was for A Co. 3/501st AV Regt. It had our mascot, a tiger [because somewhere in the distant past, the unit (along with about 100 others) took the Flying Tigers moniker], the motto "Tiger Pride", the unit designation along with a rocker indicating we were an AVIM, and "Tiger 77", my call-sign. The fact that it was worn on a flight suit with "US Army" on the leather name tag was enough to let folks know that I am a Soldier.

Perhaps it is arrogance, but I have never had a shirt made with a unit patch where we felt it necessary to spell out for the general public that we were part of the US Army. It could be that as a Fortune 3 company, the Army enjoys fairly widespread "brand" recognition. Or, it could be that it just isn't necessary.

On the other hand, we also don't have the Triangle-thingy!
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JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,622

« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2010, 09:29:05 PM »

Can't agree, based on the situation...since we hardly ever see folks from the nearest CAP units, our patch is ours and represents what we go by.
Yes, it does represent you. That's the purpose.

It's not just for uniform useage anymore.
And therein lies a problem. This is one of those things where people with no military experience don't consider it a big deal, because they don't understand it. The unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.

It's the same problem as some non-prior service members not understanding why your shirt is supposed to be tucked in(tight), your shoes shined, your gigline straight. It's a matter of professionalism. There are little things that make the difference. Not wearing uniform items with your civilian clothes is one of those things.
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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2010, 09:54:12 PM »

It's not just for uniform useage anymore.
And therein lies a problem. This is one of those things where people with no military experience don't consider it a big deal, because they don't understand it. The unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.
Do you mean the patch, or the symbols?
For example, the Screaming Eagle is used on shirt colors not even authorized for Army uniform wear. I know a Drill Sergeant whose BCT classes had shirts made- unit crest on the front, everyone's name on the back.
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jimmydeanno
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Posts: 4,155
Unit: ǝnƃoɹ

« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2010, 10:13:21 PM »

The unit patch is a uniform item, not a civilian clothing item. It shouldn't be used as one.

I'm not too sure that he meant wearing the patch on civilian attire.  My thought was in the sense of letterhead, websites, PT clothes, balsa wood airplanes, Frisbees, etc.  In a branding sense, it would make sense to show your association.

However, if you visit, say, the first infantry division website, there is no mention of "US ARMY" on it anywhere.

CAP uses the squadron patch as a branding method, as opposed to a combat unit identifier.
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
Major Carrales
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« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2010, 11:39:34 PM »

Wow...back to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" issue.  Hawk, I am dissapointed.  But take this away, anyone coming from the US Military trying to apply that culture to their CAP unit is in for a rude awakening and may do more harm than good to a local program.

I am neither prepared nor willing to argue the point of the patch here. 

All I will say is that, in the area I live, the local International Airport made a rather large cake out of our unit moniker (same logo as our patch), it is identified with the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron and has a tri-prop on the character dipicted in the patch.

Hawk, you aren't gonna try to apply US ARMY conventions to CAP, were you not arguing against the practice on another thread?

Plain and simple, if we design a patch and it is approved by WING it matters little if it has CAP on it or not. 
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,622

« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2010, 12:11:46 PM »

Wow...back to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" issue.  Hawk, I am dissapointed.  But take this away, anyone coming from the US Military trying to apply that culture to their CAP unit is in for a rude awakening and may do more harm than good to a local program.
CAP utilizes a paramilitary chain of command, as well as many of it's reasonings. As to the "You're a civilian and will never understand" statement, if I thought you could never understand then why would I try to explain it to you? I respect your intelligence to the point that I would try. You don't understand because it hasn't been explained to you, so I'm explaining.

All I will say is that, in the area I live, the local International Airport made a rather large cake out of our unit moniker (same logo as our patch), it is identified with the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron and has a tri-prop on the character dipicted in the patch.
Who partook of the cake? Was it the public in general? Or was it the members of your unit? The environment is important. Some people would argue that it's inappropriate, personally, I don't see an issue.

The point of the tri-prop isn't really whether or not it's on the cake. It's whether or not it's included in the unit's patch. Now, it's not forbidden in any way, shape or form; the issue is whether or not it's needed as part of the insignia. To me, it's pointless. You already know that the person is a CAP member by virtue of their uniform. Things can be reiterated too much, to the point that it annoys people.

Hawk, you aren't gonna try to apply US ARMY conventions to CAP, were you not arguing against the practice on another thread?
I'm not certain what you're referring too. The concept of not putting uniform related items on civilian clothing is actually spelled out in AFI 36-2903 (Air Force Uniform Instruction). So it's not an Army concept.

Plain and simple, if we design a patch and it is approved by WING it matters little if it has CAP on it or not.
My personal opinion is that it doesn't need it. It may be my personal opinion, but it mirrors that of others. I'm just the one saying it. To me, it's a matter or practicality. Why duplicate something?
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Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,106

« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2010, 02:05:23 PM »

Hawk, believe me I know "what's what," and because of that, I know the CAP is only superficially like the US Military.  Most units flying are made up of "golf-shirters" that want to serve and do so with out all the trappings of military pomp, circumstance and all that goes with that. 

In that regard, taking the inconsistancies that exist in "culture" from unit to unit (some being almost a pre-WWII like military culture and on the other end being a flying club) the nature of CAP culture system wide is not in line with procedures and customs of the US Military.  And, I will fo as far as saying, that when those cultures come into CAP...like calling uniforms by "class" or respecting some wear custom, they are looked on as being "incorrect."

This all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,622

« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2010, 04:20:42 PM »

This all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.
I agree that CAP has developed its own nuances, and I don't have any issue with it. There are things that paralell, and the paralells should remain paralell, not excessively divergent. Any true paralells that occur, however, should paralell the Air Force not other branches. This i why I have issue with using Army/Marine Corps terminology and behaviour in CAP. It doesn't paralell, so it shouldn't be practiced.

And I definitely don't agree with requiring compliance with unrelated organizations.

Amazing how we ended up here from a question about shipping, isn't it?
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Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,106

« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2010, 04:47:55 PM »

This all been said, CAP culture has developed its own nuances, conventions and traditions that only parallel those in the Military.  That is my point, do not let what was done on active duty and reserve color your preception of CAP...its the greatest of follies right up there with trying to make CAP adhere to the regulations of other, similar agencies like the USCG Aux or frateral organizations like the ELKS, Free Masons, Knights of Columbus or Rotary club.
I agree that CAP has developed its own nuances, and I don't have any issue with it. There are things that paralell, and the paralells should remain paralell, not excessively divergent. Any true paralells that occur, however, should paralell the Air Force not other branches. This i why I have issue with using Army/Marine Corps terminology and behaviour in CAP. It doesn't paralell, so it shouldn't be practiced.

And I definitely don't agree with requiring compliance with unrelated organizations.

Amazing how we ended up here from a question about shipping, isn't it?

Some call it drift, but it is the nature of most discussions.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
spacecommand
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 545

« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2010, 01:11:01 AM »

We have a new member at our squadron and today he asked a question about getting uniforms, and virtually every senior member had their own vanguard story to tell.  Everything from wrong orders to shipping that took ages. @_@  Most of the members also mentioned the Hock Shop and how they miss it selling CAP items. 
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Gung Ho
Recruit

Posts: 47

« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2010, 10:27:44 AM »

Thats my point it sure seems like we are a pain in Vanguards side so to speak. It's good to get good items but how long do we have to wait? Vanguard needs to hear what we are saying and wake up. Since I think if I want new uniforms like the dress stuff I would have to order it from vanguard I'm think you will never see me in that dress.

Wanted to add this will be my one and only Vanguard story!!
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spacecommand
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 545

« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2010, 05:00:00 PM »

Ordered a pair of epaulets on Tuesday, today is Friday and item is still "Processing".

Hock shop would of had it in the mail the next day....
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vento
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Posts: 689

« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2010, 05:22:46 PM »

Ordered a pair of epaulets on Tuesday, today is Friday and item is still "Processing".

Hock shop would of had it in the mail the next day....

I had twice received shipment from Vanguard while their website still says my order was in "Processing".
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ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,889
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2010, 07:45:04 PM »

Is it just me or what. But it seems to me that with all the criticism that Scamguard seems to be getting from CAP members, a company should react in some way to improve their image rather than running the same old flags up the pole. Granted...with 60,000 some odd members we are just seeing a few anecdotal accounts here... some good and some bad. I can't believe that with all the negativity floating around about them that there's not some truth to it. A company like this should serve their customers not dictate to them.
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2010, 11:32:07 PM »

Well, FWIW, I met with management folks during the NB and found them to be extremely concerned about Service and responsive to our needs. 

They were working with CP to establish a reliable source for BDUs and black combat boots - especially in smaller (cadet) sizes - for the indefinite period while we are waiting for ABUs.  They are contracting with a manufacturer and the prices should be good for us. We should have sample sets at NHQ to review quality soon.

The point is we talked, they listened and worked hard to meet our needs.

Ned Lee
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RADIOMAN015
Banned

Posts: 1,990

« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2010, 01:57:46 PM »

Well, FWIW, I met with management folks during the NB and found them to be extremely concerned about Service and responsive to our needs. 

They were working with CP to establish a reliable source for BDUs and black combat boots - especially in smaller (cadet) sizes - for the indefinite period while we are waiting for ABUs.  They are contracting with a manufacturer and the prices should be good for us. We should have sample sets at NHQ to review quality soon.

The point is we talked, they listened and worked hard to meet our needs.

Ned Lee
Not sure what "extremely concerned & responsiveness to our needs" (by Vanguard) means  -- Likely just a lot of marketing puff with no action plan.  (perhaps Nat Hq should run a survey on it's website asking for members input on experiences with Vanguard or just ask for email comments).  Seriously 3+ weeks to get name plate tags/tapes >:(  Five days just to process a "stock" order.  >:( etc, etc.  (and they charge your credit card right when the order is placed)  That's what happens  with these sweatheart one source deals!!!   Also please note that  CAP's outside contractor for plastic ID cards is taking greater than 3 weeks to get those ID cards out to new members >:( (some military bases will not accept temp printed paper ID cards for entry).   Seems to me it real easy to put in performance standards for contractors to meet as far as processing times.  Apparently CAP isn't interested in that or agreed to the standards as on the (Vanguard) website.   So many members that need name tags/tapes probably are going to look at other sources for better service (1 week or less).

Interestingly in our squadron the smaller cadets don't seem to have a problem with purchasing smaller size BDU's and boots.  Perhaps locally we've got good sources.  I'll ask them.  I know that "Army Barracks" has seven locations in New England (one close to us), BUT recently closed their mail order division, so a visit to a store is required.  I'm pretty sure that's where the smaller cadets got their uniforms/boots.  There's also another Uniform shop just outside the base.   There would be good demand in this area to stock smaller sizes because the Young Marines program is also very active in our area (100+ youngesters) and they take even younger kids into the program.

Before we get into any long term contracts on uniforms/boots, perhaps now is the time to make a decision on transitioning to Blue BDU's for everyone in CAP.   CAP is a non combat organization and we don't need to hide from anyone.  ACU's, BDU's etc, are/were for military and SWAT type para military forces.   Even with CAP march to "brand identity" having the same field uniform color would be a big step in the right direction :angel:
RM         
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jimmydeanno
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,155
Unit: ǝnƃoɹ

« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2010, 02:21:18 PM »

I just placed an order, 5 seconds ago.  We'll conduct a test.

The order contained 15 separate line items of multiple quantities. It contains awards, ribbon racks, clothing items and novelty items (a bit from every section). The order was enough to qualify for the free shipping, with a special request to ship UPS or USPS, because FedEX can't find my house (new subdivision, I don't have a valid address).

So, it is 11SEP10 at 1:20 CST, a Saturday.  I'll chime back in when my order arrives.
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,307

« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2010, 03:10:33 PM »

Before we get into any long term contracts on uniforms/boots, perhaps now is the time to make a decision on transitioning to Blue BDU's for everyone in CAP.   CAP is a non combat organization and we don't need to hide from anyone.  ACU's, BDU's etc, are/were for military and SWAT type para military forces.   Even with CAP march to "brand identity" having the same field uniform color would be a big step in the right direction :angel:
RM       

That same tired "we're not combatants" arguement didn't fly in the 80's when we transitioned to BDU's from Fatigues.
So what makes you think it's going to work now?
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