CAP Decorations

[flyboy53]

One other thing, Lordmonar, did you realize your idea brings CAP back full circle to the 50s and 60s when there were Red, White and Blue Training Ribbons for cadets?

Interesting!

[Eclipse]

In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.

Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?

[AlphaSigOU]

In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.

Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?

Exactly.  The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Are we eligible for AF civilian awards?

I don't see why not, and if so, we could probably replace some of our awards with those.

http://tinyurl.com/22pk66h

There is even a civilian version of the Air Medal:

http://tinyurl.com/2ubfegm

[flyboy53]

It has to relate to the statutory authority that creates the medal. Some are done by the President and Congress, some are done within the military service.

Without digging through the medal criteria, I thought that some decorations were open to civilians...like the Air Medal. These days, however, most of the decorations and medals are created only with the military side in mind. AF civil service has their own decorations and most of them relate to DAFC duties. There are one or two DAFC medals that specifically relate to career service and are awarded only at the time of retirement.

I do think, however, it would be absolutely amazing and quite the honor if NHQ and CAP-USAF would seek permission from the CSAF to do that...even if it were only limited to things like AFCMs or AFAMs or their similar civilian decorations. If the Air Medal was previously awarded to CAP, why can't CAP members be awarded them now. Think of all those flying hours in support of various disasters or the Columbia Recovery.

Congress is now doing a Congressional Medal Honoring WWII CAP members. Why not have the Congressional Squadron draft similar legislation opening eligiblity for a specific decoration(s) to CAP?

In WWII, those types of civilian decorations were ribbons and some CAP members received them for their duties.

[ColonelJack]

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.

I agree with that thought.  It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal.  Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient.  Almost like "real military thing".

In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times.  All were funerals.

It doesn't matter if they're ever worn.  I'd like them for my shadowbox.  They should be made available to the members who wish to purchase them.

I, too, would pay for them ...

Jack

[HGjunkie]

In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.

Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?

Exactly.  The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)

Well, If you count the AFA and AFSA medals, it comes out to 5.

[flyboy53]

In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.

Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?

Exactly.  The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)

Well, If you count the AFA and AFSA medals, it comes out to 5.

OK, I'll grant you a gold star for considering those two medals, but it's not really correct for the sake of this discussion.

Those medals aren't awarded by the CAP. They come from the Air Force Association and Air Force Sergeant's Association and are only awarded to specific sellected cadets.

[arajca]

More time killed...

[attachment deleted by admin]

[lordmonar]

Amend item J. (Find Award) to allow it to be awared to aircrew, ground teams AND mission base personel at the discrestion of the IC with approval of the wing commander.  And eliminate the stuff about CG or CGAux too confusing.

Expand on K, L, and M to define what a "sortie" is.  (ie a take off and landing or any flight over two hours for aircrew.  Does time sitting around the mission base count as sortie time for the ground crew? How many hours consitutes a sortie for mission base personnel?)

V.  Eliminate the silver and gold stars....change them to just bronze stars (1 for Level III and 2 for Level IV).
X.  eliminate the gold star or change it to a bonze star for each achievement completed.
Y. Eliminate the star for COS.  Replace it with bronze stars for achiemvents completed between Mitchell and Earhart.
Z. Add Bronze stars for acheivements.
bb.  Need to define particpation.  Is the count for each "sortie" of one for each "mission"...for example if you partipcate in all five days of a five day mission as an MRO does that count as 1 "mission" or 5 "missions"?  (I would use the same defintions as we use for the arieal/ground/Incident base acheiment medals).
dd.  No logevity ribbon at 2 years (or we make each clasp a 2 year...let's set a standard and keep it).
ee.  Same deal (set the standard and let it ride).
jj.  Remove the community service "conducted by CAP" rule.  Make sure that the community service is NOT something directly tied to CAP (i.e. SAR is a community service...but is directly tied to CAP, Air Show Support is community Service but is directly tied to CAP....but if the CAP unit adopts a highway....those hours worked should count. YMMV).
KK, LL, MM, NN....kill them all together.  If we want to do cadet of the year program let's develope our own.  If we keep them....they should properly go below the CAP basic Training Ribbon as they are not CAP awards.

[arajca]

I'll post an update tonight, but a couple things I'll address now:

J. This awarded ONLY to the aircrew or ground team actually finding the target. Since base staff do not search, they cannot find the target. It is not awarded to every air crew and ground team involved in the search, only the one that actually finds the target.

Z. Two points. a) there are five achievements between the Wright Bros and Mitchell - five devices won't fit on one ribbon. b) each achievement, except the last, get a stripe.

bb. Addressed in last line. I added a clarification.

dd. Common practice in business is recognition of two years, five years, and every five thereafter. It follows the same system as the Red Service Ribbon now.

ee. I see this as a compromise. Cadets get it for every two, seniors for every seven. This provides for a simple start up, then makes the math easy once you get to five.

KK, LL, MM, NN moved down below CAP Basic Training Ribbon. If a CAP cadet officer and cadet NCO of the year program was developed, I could easily drop these four. Give me some criteria to include and I'll make the change.

[Eclipse]

Not entirely true, it is basically up to the IC and/or the Wing CC (or designate):

Per 60-3:
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.

[BradM]

Are we eligible for AF civilian awards?

I don't see why not, and if so, we could probably replace some of our awards with those.

http://tinyurl.com/22pk66h

There is even a civilian version of the Air Medal:

http://tinyurl.com/2ubfegm

I agree with you 100%! Such as you get the civilian air medal for 25 missions of search and rescue, counter drug, and homeland security in any combination

[BradM]

I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you

[arajca]

Not entirely true, it is basically up to the IC and/or the Wing CC (or designate):

Per 60-3:
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.

OK. I had just cut and pasted from 39-3 for my list.

[lordmonar]

J. This awarded ONLY to the aircrew or ground team actually finding the target. Since base staff do not search, they cannot find the target. It is not awarded to every air crew and ground team involved in the search, only the one that actually finds the target.

Air Crew and Ground Teams do not work in a vacumn.  I agree that not everyone who signs in the mission base should get it....but your planning section and ops section are just as much a part of the team as the scanner or GTM3 trainee on their first mission.

Z. Two points. a) there are five achievements between the Wright Bros and Mitchell - five devices won't fit on one ribbon. b) each achievement, except the last, get a stripe.

Yes they will...one silver star=5 bronze stars.
I understand that we are kind of double dipping (stripes and ribbon bugs)...the idea is 20 years later former Cadet MSgt Jimbody will still be wearing his Wright Brothers ribbon with two bronze stars so everyone will know how far he progressed in the Cadet Program. (That was why I wanted to ax the Wright Bro, Mitchell, Earhart and Eaker ribbons in the first place....and replace them with just a Cadet Programs Ribbon with stars).

dd. Common practice in business is recognition of two years, five years, and every five thereafter. It follows the same system as the Red Service Ribbon now.

Common business practice is to recognise each year, or four years, or 10 years......keep it simple....why are your first two years important but not your next two years?  I don't care what number you use....just pick a number and stick to it.

ee. I see this as a compromise. Cadets get it for every two, seniors for every seven. This provides for a simple start up, then makes the math easy once you get to five.

Sounds good to me.

KK, LL, MM, NN moved down below CAP Basic Training Ribbon. If a CAP cadet officer and cadet NCO of the year program was developed, I could easily drop these four. Give me some criteria to include and I'll make the change.

concur.

[arajca]

Updated once again:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Short Field]

I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you

Lets see, B-17 loss rate was about 25% on the early missions.  Odds of surviving five missions - Less than one percent.

[BradM]

I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you

Lets see, B-17 loss rate was about 25% on the early missions.  Odds of surviving five missions - Less than one percent.

He served 1944 to 1945. Are you saying then that 25 missions is too generous? 100 CAP air missions to get an Air Medal then? If not the military version there is a Civilian Air Medal as well.

[Short Field]

He served 1944 to 1945. Are you saying then that 25 missions is too generous? 100 CAP air missions to get an Air Medal then? If not the military version there is a Civilian Air Medal as well.

1.  The renewed Strategic Bombing Campaign ran from Sep 1944 - Apr 1945. 

The cost of the strategic bombing campaign was very high. The Allies lost almost 160,000 airmen, almost exactly distributed among American and British flyers). The cost to Germany was much higher. More than half of the bombs that fell on Germany would fall in the next 6 month period after the strategic bombing campaign was resumed (September 1944). German cities were devastated. The number of German civilians killed is not known precisely, but most historians believe that it was more than 300,000 people. The bombing campaign did not as some proponents of aerial warfare had hoped, force the NAZIs to make peace. Nor did it crack German civilian morale. It did, however, achieve its objectives. The German capacity to make war was destroyed. Germany's oil supplies were devastated. Not only did Germany lose access to imported oil, but its synthetic plants were devastated. The result was that the Wehrmacht was largely immobilized. Hitler's final last offensive was launched in the Ardennes (December 16, 1944). It was at first quite successful. One of the reasons it failed was that the Germans simply ran out of fuel. Units had to abandon fully functioning tanks and armored vehicles.

What many people fail to realize is that the US Army Air Corp losses were greater than USMC losses in the Pacific. 

Don't try to compare a combat mission and the resulting medal with a CAP mission.