CAP Decorations

[Hawk200]

As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.

If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.

There you go equating CAP stuff with RM stuff.

It is not the BMTS ribbon....it is the CAP Basic Training Ribbon.

You bring me to task about correct terminolgy.....so you need to stop comparing apples and oranges.

You're the one trying to apply a typical military term to a CAP ribbon. It's true that the two don't compare, but using a name that is inevitably going to draw comparisons isn't going to help. Don't draw it in the first place.

"Initial training award" or "initial training ribbon" might be appropriate. "Basic Training Ribbon" isn't. We don't have a "basic training." Don't imply that we do. That's where the "wannabe" impressions begin.

[ol'fido]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

[Hawk200]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.

[DakRadz]

Agreed!!!

How disrespectful to those CAP Members who earned those CAP Ribbons. With an attitude like that, I would not want that guy anywhere around my Cadets, no matter if he were a war hero.

I do believe the military has some very pointless ribbons itself.  Basic training graduation ribbons??  Marksmanship ribbons!! etc.

I like the idea of CAP Ribbons on CAP uniforms. Period.

Basic training ribbon? Arguable that it could be unnecessary, since you're rather likely to have done that if you are enlisted and in the military...
Marksmanship, I can see uses for that.

As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything.  That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get  our special service....and not any other MLB team?   

The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.

And the Medal of Honor is awarded for valor. (Emphasis mine)
Time for a change on that as well?

[ol'fido]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.

Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.

[Hawk200]

Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.

Heated is up for debate.

Apparently, so is whether or not it means anything. When the small details become meaningless, it's only a matter of time before the bigger issues become meaningless as well.

[Major Carrales]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.

Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.

Not a very popular thing to say.  I wonder why you, or anyone for that matter, would make such a comment.  If CAP decoration are "bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot" neither do any awards anywhere.

Perhaps if you and we all could understand that the awards, ribbons and medals "stand for something..." an act, time spent, a series of "good turns" or a completion of some program or project; then  we would find that they do mean a great deal.  However, if you don't value them youself...that is personal.   I would submit that you hold those beliefs and refrain from trying to make others conform to them (should that be your goal, I can only speculate at this point) if they should differ.

By the way, one meaning of the word "academic" relates to "meaninglessness."

[arajca]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

I don't know about that. I know a couple of professors who have lost their jobs due to office politics. I wouldn't call that small stakes.

[ol'fido]

My point is this....I don't do stuff to get a ribbon or medal or anything else(and yes there are a few doodads that I am proud of)...I do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do. To sit around debating medals and ribbons in this manner strikes me as unimportant. And we criticize some of the cadets that come on here as being bling happy. Do what you do for you not for what you can wear because of it.

[jimmydeanno]

My point is this....I don't do stuff to get a ribbon or medal or anything else(and yes there are a few doodads that I am proud of)...I do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do. To sit around debating medals and ribbons in this manner strikes me as unimportant. And we criticize some of the cadets that come on here as being bling happy. Do what you do for you not for what you can wear because of it.

I don't think anyone is debating medals and ribbons for their own pleasure, or in hopes that someday they will earn them themselves.  I think the original intent of these discussions stems from a better way to recognize the efforts of those who, "do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do."

Each and every award or decoration that you earn or are awarded represents a thank you from either an individual person or from the organization.  Sure, they could all be pieces of paper, or plaques, but I don't think we have that much wall space 

[Gunner C]

This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.

Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.

Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.

Wow. Just wow.

[ol'fido]

It's just that when I hear or see a lot of conversation about ribbons or awards, I get this image of a bunch of "perfumed prince" careerists sitting in the Pentagon scheming to get their next OER and "ticket punch" assignment and the heck with the troops. And, no, I am not accusing anyone of that here or inferring that anyone is sitting around scheming to raise their rack. It's just that I've seen a lot of "bling" hunting in my time to the point that when there is a thread that discusses ribbons, awards, or "bling" it just raises my hackles automatically.

[lordmonar]

I can see that point of view.....but just for the record that is NOT what I was trying to do.  If anything I am trying to reduce the absolute number of ribbons, standardise what they are for and to make the system easy to use and understand.

[ol'fido]

I understand and that makes sense but this is CAP and it'll never fly if it does make sense.

[flyboy53]

Well I was thinking.....If I Were God...and wanted to take on the CAP decorations....what would it look like?

1.  CAP Medal of Valor (Replaces the SMoV)
2.  CAP Cross (replaces the BMoV)
2.  CAP Distinguished Service Medal (awarded by the BoG for service to CAP)
3.  CAP (for work at the National Level)
4.  CAP Superior Service Medal (For work at regional level)
5.  CAP Legion Of Merit (for long and distinguished service to CAP)
6.  CAP Meritorious Service Medal (for work at wing level)
7.  CAP Life Saving Medal
8.  CAP Find Medal
9.  Cap Aerial Achievement Award (combines the ES/CD/HLS/DR/OR medals for air crew)
10.  CAP Ground Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for ground teams)
11.  CAP Mission Base Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for mission base personnel)
12.  CAP Commendation Medal (for work at Group Level)
13.  CAP Achievement Medal (for work at unit level).
14.  BoG Unit Citation (awarded by Bog for doing some really top notch work)
15.  CAP Meritorious Unit Award
16. CAP Outstanding Unit Award
17. CAP Quality Unit Award (awarded yearly if you meet basic unit quality factors)
17. CAP Aerospace Education Award (Yeager)
18.  Wilson Medal
19. CAP Professional Development Award (replaces leadership, Garber, Loening)
20. Spaatz Medal
21. Cadet Professional Development Ribbon
22. CAP Campaign Medals (these can be special awards created for those who participated in special operations (Columbia search, Katrina, Fosset Search, etc). They can be either the same ribbon or make special ones for each operations...worn in the order received).
23. Longevity Ribbon (replaces red service Medal)
24. Recruiting Ribbon (combines both the cadet and senior recruiter ribbon)
25. IACE
26. NCSA Ribbon (combines ALL NCSAs into a single ribbon).
27. Cadet Marksman Ribbon
28. Encampment Ribbon
29.  Community Service Ribbon
30.  CAP Basic Training Ribbon (Replaces Curry for cadets and Membership for Seniors (prior cadets would wear a star when they complete level I).

Okay....

First off.....this does not solve any nonexistent problem...that is don't say "why do we need to change anything". 

This does a a couple of things for us.
1.  It ties our level of awards with the USAF award system....so they will match up. (this is not to say they are same thing...so don't go there!  The CAP cross is not equivalent to the AF Cross!).
2.  It ties the awards with a specific level of expected achievement......i.e. the top level of service award medals would be for those doing work at the top level!  Just like the USAF you still have discretion of awarding the appropriate award no matter what echelon the individual works at.
3. It eliminate a lot of medals/ribbons that we already get things for (cadets get both a ribbon and a rank....so give them a ribbon with stars on it to replace all those other ribbons....same story for the SMs).
4. It cleans up some of the weirdness of some of the ribbons..(a find is a find is a find....does not/should not matter if you got a find on foot as a GTM, in the air as a MS or working the mission base as MRO.
5. It also cleans up the DR/CD/ES/HLS weirdness.   If you fly 100 mission hours....I want to give you something to put on your uniform....I don't care if it was 100 ES mission or 100 CD mission...it was 100 mission. (don't yell at me about the numbers...I just threw something out there).
6.  It allows us to reward all out operational people for their contribution...not just air crew and GT.

Just a thought.

You guys are funny. First you absolutely denigrate an individual for chosing to present a conservative appearance by only wearing his military ribbons and then you slam others for "bling hunting." Make up your minds and thanx for the lack of respect of others.

The fact is that in this program, ribbons and medals serve as an incentive to achieve. Without all the "bling," I wonder if there would be serious PD achievement or participation. There are so many ribbons because its necessary to encourage people to progress through the program.

However, streamlining the number of ribbons/medals isn't a bad idea. Consider these suggestions if you would please. Although I personally like the idea of a Wilson Medal (it harkens back to the Falcon Award/Medal), I think the idea of a PD ribbon is great. Otherwise, why not create a policy where only the highest PD ribbon is worn. That stipulation is already required of cadets who transition to seniors.

As far as "campaign medals," fine, ok, but I would limit it to one. The military has one medal for everything that doesn't fit into other campaign medal categories. It's called the Armed Forces Service Medal. A CAP-similar medal with appropriate devices to reflect specific operations would be interesting. Think of all the cool devices --space shuttles, hurricane storm clouds, etc. A person who served in the Antartic wears a device on that military medal to reflect being wintered over.

Finally, for AEOs, the Yeager Award isn't the highest ribbon they can earn. The other is a Crossfield Award if the AEO achieves a master rating. Make it a stipulation that only the higher award (Crossfield) is worn, especially since the Yeager is a requirement to get the Crossfield.

I wouldn't call it a basic training ribbon. How about just training ribbon to recognize initial training. Here's another thing to consider. The Air Force allows devices to be worn on that ribbon if the individual has completed more than one initial training, in other words, a prior enlisted individual would wear a device on the ribbon if they completed BMTS and OTS or some sort of medical officer training. In CAP, that means that a former cadet who completes Level One could wear a device.

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost. 

[Patterson]

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.

I agree with that thought.  It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal.  Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient.  Almost like "real military thing". 

[RVT]

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.

I agree with that thought.  It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal.  Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient.  Almost like "real military thing".

In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times.  All were funerals.

[lordmonar]

why not create a policy where only the highest PD ribbon is worn. That stipulation is already required of cadets who transition to seniors.

I would like to develope a system where we don't have to remove ribbons as we go along.

Reducing the number of cadet acheivment ribbons to just three (CAP Inital/basic training, Cadet PD and Spaatz) and the SM PD ribbons to three (CAP Inital/basic training, Senior PD and Wilson) makes it possible for cadets to simply start adding SM ribbons when the move over. 

Removing ribbons because you have a higher one reduces the imporatnce of the lower ribbon...i.e. it is not important enough to share space with your other ribbons.  Plus it just complicates it when some forgets to remove a ribbon as they move up.

As far as "campaign medals," fine, ok, but I would limit it to one. The military has one medal for everything that doesn't fit into other campaign medal categories. It's called the Armed Forces Service Medal. A CAP-similar medal with appropriate devices to reflect specific operations would be interesting. Think of all the cool devices --space shuttles, hurricane storm clouds, etc. A person who served in the Antartic wears a device on that military medal to reflect being wintered over.

I would go for that.  I standard CAP Service medal and a list of operations that rate it.  I would leave the door open for the few really large operations that we have done.....it is not like I am talking one for every floor, storm...but for major operations (911, Challanger, Katrina) they could make a special on for that....or not.

Finally, for AEOs, the Yeager Award isn't the highest ribbon they can earn. The other is a Crossfield Award if the AEO achieves a master rating. Make it a stipulation that only the higher award (Crossfield) is worn, especially since the Yeager is a requirement to get the Crossfield.

Kill teh Crossfield all together.  Master rated AEO's have a badge no need for a special ribbon.  Yeager is open to all members and is designed to get them to read the stuipid book.

I wouldn't call it a basic training ribbon. How about just training ribbon to recognize initial training. Here's another thing to consider. The Air Force allows devices to be worn on that ribbon if the individual has completed more than one initial training, in other words, a prior enlisted individual would wear a device on the ribbon if they completed BMTS and OTS or some sort of medical officer training. In CAP, that means that a former cadet who completes Level One could wear a device.

I agree...what ever we call it....you get the ribbon for completing Achievement one and a star when you complete level I.  If you were never a cadet no star.  Just like a former enlisted member going to OTS.

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.

I agree with that as well.  Even if squadrons only kept one or two sets on hand just to do the presentation....it just looks "right" to actually pin on the decoration.  When I was CC in Misawa we had the Milestone mini medals we would use for the presentation ceremony. (we made them give it back later  ).

[lordmonar]

Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.

I agree with that thought.  It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal.  Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient.  Almost like "real military thing".

In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times.  All were funerals.

That's three times more then I ever did in 22 years on AD USAF.   The full sized medals are not for the wearing...but for the presentation ceremony and the shadow box.

[flyboy53]

Me, too.

The fact that I have never worn my full-sized medals, however, doesn't negate the status or prestige that I feel for them.

On active duty, I earned enough plaques, trophies, mugs and other things to fill a wall and several shelves. It's called an "I Love Me Wall." Then everytime someone went PCS, you'd see boxes of these awards next to a garbage can. I can honestly say that I, too, did the same and only retained very few that had I had deep attachment to. 

I kept the medals. A full-sized medal gives a deeper meaning to the dedication, devotion to duty and/or sacrifice that the honor/recognition is supposed to represent. If full-sized medals aren't a valid form of recognition, than how about the World War II Air Medals. Wouldn't you have liked to have observed those ceremonies? Imagine the honor and prestige for those individual's families and I'll bet that few of them never wore their full-sized medals again. Think, too, of those Air Medals awarded to the CAP members lost in the line of duty. That medal represented one last permanent reminder of a certain family member's sacrifice. The point is, that the medal is a little more permanent than a plaque or certificate.

In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.

If there were full sized medals, available to purchase, to accompany our major decorations or achievements, gee, think of it. Imagine the proceeds/share/cut that CAP would generate on this Vanguard project....it may certainly be a better form of recognition than a CAP sword.