Cadet Membership Upper Age Change?

[DakRadz]

Actually, I do believe it's "Patron" member, not former, as they don't just kick you out.

You made me go check regs. 

You were right, as a matter of fact:

a. Automatic Loss of Membership:
(1) Reaching 21st birthday. National Headquarters will
automatically transfer cadets to senior member patron status when the
cadets reach their 21st birthdays (unless membership expires during
the same month)

[Eclipse]

CAPR 39-2, Page 11 disagrees...
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf

3-7. Procedures for Cadets Transferring to Senior Status. After reaching age 18, cadets desiring to transfer to senior member status may do so by simply forwarding a CAPF 12 and a FBI fingerprint card to National Headquarters (a copy of the CAPF 12 should also be forwarded to the wing headquarters). The form will be annotated across the top as follows: "Cadet to Senior - No Charge." When the application is received by National Headquarters, the cadet will be transferred to senior member status for the duration of his or her current membership year, after which time the member will be billed as a senior membership renewal.

NOTE 1: If the cadet's membership is due for renewal at approximately the same time the application for senior membership is made (within 2 months), than the applicant should include new senior membership dues with the application to ensure continuous service. (See attachment 1 for actual dues amount required.) In this case, wing dues will be forwarded directly to the wing.

NOTE 2: Cadets who have not transferred to senior member status prior to their 21st birthday, will have their cadet membership terminated and receive a notification letter from National Headquarters along with a CAPF 12 and fingerprint card in the event they wish to continue their CAP affiliation as a senior member.

[DakRadz]

Since my reference was from a 1981 manual....  You're probably right. Yours is a 2004 model.

Once again, the right hand has slapped the left side of the face, and left a mark. What's new?

[ßτε]

I do believe the CAPR 35-3 policy as quoted is the current policy being implemented by NHQ.
Note that it is actually part of the 16 March 2010 Change to CAPR 35-3.

[Eclipse]

One reg conflicts with another? Get otta town!

Regardless, patron or termed, you lose your playground rights, regardless.

[a2capt]

Well, we had a cadet recently turn 21 and since they had no intention of continuing on, they did nothing- and the membership turned patron. We didn't do it.

[DakRadz]

Ah well, it's not like anyone really needs to know, hmm? If you don't plan on continuing, let it die- it doesn't bill you automatically, and you ain't gettin' a refund.

If you (I!) do plan on continuing, just make sure the process is started and the check is mailed, then you don't have to worry about patron/etc.

ECLIPSE: I just realized, that reg says that cadet membership will be terminated, not the whole thing. So perhaps you become a patron is what it means to say? You would have to go through the forms, etc. anyway, so that makes sense now that I think about it.

[HGjunkie]

My brain hurts.

[Spaceman3750]

ECLIPSE: I just realized, that reg says that cadet membership will be terminated, not the whole thing. So perhaps you become a patron is what it means to say? You would have to go through the forms, etc. anyway, so that makes sense now that I think about it.

If you're a cadet member, cadet membership IS the whole thing. Same with seniors, if they terminate my senior membership, I'm all the way out, not just a patron.

[HGjunkie]

ECLIPSE: I just realized, that reg says that cadet membership will be terminated, not the whole thing. So perhaps you become a patron is what it means to say? You would have to go through the forms, etc. anyway, so that makes sense now that I think about it.

If you're a cadet member, cadet membership IS the whole thing. Same with seniors, if they terminate my senior membership, I'm all the way out, not just a patron.

Common sense alert!!!

[DakRadz]

I concede that may be the case. I was more on the train of thought that:
The cadet membership is terminated, reinstated as patron status. NHQ= confusing, regardless.

And see my above post- while you may be right, if a cadet is on top of the process, then they have no need to worry about the daggum nuances.

[Майор Хаткевич]

*grumbles*

Guess I'll have to get Fingerprinted in December so that I don't lapse in February!

P.S. A thought I just had. If someone gets arrested and printed before turning Senior, but not something serious enough to get jail time/terminated, I wonder if there would be be instances when something like that can get you declined for SM status once the check happens?

And no, I haven't been arrested, nor have anything to be concerned about, just a thought. I know Eclipse probably got to thinking at the P.S. point about me.

[a2capt]

We do the "Conversion to Senior Member" written on the top of the membership form, with finger print card about a month before, if the cadet has indicated they are going to continue. Usually, they do if the are still around at this point.

[Eagle400]

Not wanting to keep around Cadets who don't progress is one thing (and IIRC, the 52-16 requires at least two achievements a year to stay in the program)...

Yes, though we must remember: Whether to retain or let go a cadet for failure to progress satisfactorily is entirely up to the commander.

Case in point... I was a cadet for 8 years.  I fast-burned through phases I and II in 2 years, but parked at Phase III where I remained for the rest of my cadet career.  I left as a C/Capt. 

Why?

Because I established myself as a valuable asset to the squadron, and had also served there from 1999 to 2005.  Sure my commander could have let me go... But it would have been detrimental to the squadron, its people, and the unit's commitment to excellence. 

So yes, CAP does have an up-or-out policy for cadets... But like I said, enfocement is entirely at the commander's discretion. 



And just for the record, I think 12 is waaay too low of a minimum age for cadet service.  As a guy who wore mosquito wings at 12, I can tell you it would've been better for me to join at 15. 

(And this was under the old 50-16 program, which was IMO a lot tougher than the current one).

Personally, if there is an upper age change... then NHQ is mixed up with their priorities.  They need to change the minimum age, not the maximum.  Sorry y'all, but the age gap in the cadet program is just too darn big.             

[JC004]

or just leave the minimum be because, in part, we will lose people due to the fact that it's a lot harder to recruit them as they get older.

[Eclipse]

Because I established myself as a valuable asset to the squadron, and had also served there from 1999 to 2005.  Sure my commander could have let me go... But it would have been detrimental to the squadron, its people, and the unit's commitment to excellence.

Commitment to excellence?

He ignored the very thing the unit is there for, your development, and in the process set a bad example and precedent.

Hardly "excellence"

[HGjunkie]

Because I established myself as a valuable asset to the squadron, and had also served there from 1999 to 2005.  Sure my commander could have let me go... But it would have been detrimental to the squadron, its people, and the unit's commitment to excellence.

Commitment to excellence?

He ignored the very thing the unit is there for, your development, and in the process set a bad example and precedent.

Hardly "excellence"

The USAF defines excellence as;

• Product/service excellence. We must focus on providing services and generating products that
fully respond to customer wants and anticipate customer needs, and we must do so within the
boundaries established by the taxpaying public.
• Personal Excellence. Military professionals must seek out and complete professional military
education, stay in physical and mental shape, and continue to refresh their general educational
backgrounds.
• Community Excellence. Community excellence is achieved when the members of an organization
can work together to successfully reach a common goal in an atmosphere free of fear that
preserves individual self-worth. Some of the factors influencing interpersonal excellence are:
· Mutual respect. Genuine respect involves viewing another person as an individual of
fundamental worth. Obviously, this means that a person is never judged on the basis of
his/her possession of an attribute that places him or her in some racial, ethnic, economic,
or gender-based category.
· Benefit of the doubt. Working hand in glove with mutual respect is that attitude which
says that all coworkers are 'innocent until proven guilty'. Before rushing to judgement
about a person or his/her behavior, it is important to have the whole story.
• Resources excellence. Excellence in all we do also demands that we aggressively implement
policies to ensure the best possible cradle-to-grave management of resources.
· Material resources excellence. Military professionals have an obligation to ensure that
all of the equipment and property they ask for is mission essential. This means that residual
funds at the end of the year should not be used to purchase 'nice to have' add-ons.
· Human resources excellence. Human resources excellencemeans thatwe recruit, train,
promote, and retain those who can do the best job for us.
• Operations excellence. There are two kinds of operations excellence—internal and external.
· Excellence of internal operations. This form of excellence pertains to the way we do
business internal to the Air Force—from the unit level to Headquarters Air Force. It
involves respect on the unit level and a total commitment to maximizing the Air Force
team effort.
· Excellence of external operations. This formof excellence pertains to theway inwhich
we treat the world around us as we conduct our operations. In peacetime, for example,
we must be sensitive to the rules governing environmental pollution, and in wartime we
are required to obey the laws of war.

Leaving out the RM stuff, as long as he abides by something like this, he is the definition of "Excellence." 

[Eclipse]

Leaving out the RM stuff, as long as he abides by something like this, he is the definition of "Excellence."

Really?

So ignoring a core tenant of the program, personal progression, is "excellence"?  The term you're looking for is "stagnation" and "poor example".  He could be the best C/Capt. ever, but it doesn't matter, because once those pips started getting dusty, the other cadets who
theoretically respected him were being told that progression is no big deal and stagnation is fine, as long as you're "doing something".

Which is not how CAP is supposed to work.

Perhaps you are also unfamiliar with the "Chief experience" as well.

We all have excuses why we don't progress, seniors included, but they are generally just that, excuses, allowed by our commanders who themselves can't be bothered to apply foot to posterior and tell us to get moving.

I can't personally think of a single reason why some staff duty would be "helped" by dying on the vine as a C/Captain, that would not be made better by personal progression.

Enlighten us, please.

[HGjunkie]

Leaving out the RM stuff, as long as he abides by something like this, he is the definition of "Excellence."

Really?

So ignoring a core tenant of the program, personal progression, is "excellence"?  The term you're looking for is "stagnation" and "poor example".  He could be the best C/Capt. ever, but it doesn't matter, because once those pips started getting dusty, the other cadets who
theoretically respected him were being told that progression is no big deal and stagnation is fine, as long as you're "doing something".

Which is not how CAP is supposed to work.

Perhaps you are also unfamiliar with the "Chief experience" as well.

We all have excuses why we don't progress, seniors included, but they are generally just that, excuses, allowed by our commanders who themselves can't be bothered to apply foot to posterior and tell us to get moving.

I can't personally think of a single reason why some staff duty would be "helped" by dying on the vine as a C/Captain, that would not be made better by personal progression.

Enlighten us, please.

I just think it's harsh that even though he might be an excellence C/Officer, you think he is a "Poor Example" for other cadets. I saw at my old Sq. someone who had the chief syndrome, and instead if me taking it that it would be okay to not promote, I actually wanted to promote faster so I didn't end up like him. (there's more to that story, but i'm not going to discuss it...). I even have a hard time just finding time to open my Leadership/aerospace texts to study for my next promotion (Although theoretically I could get off CAPTalk and bury my head into a book... ). Your opinion of him not progressing in the CP is just your view, and isn't taking into account any other situations he might be dealing with that may be stagnating his promotion. And personal progression, to me, doesnt just include promoting. It also means (to me) gaining experience, learning from past mistakes, and bettering yourself to be a key asset in training, squadron functions, and anything else to do with CAP. So really, I would look up to a cadet who does these things, and embodies the USAF definition of excellence (stated above) as a heck of a good role model, promoting or not.
I do agree that promoting is a part of personal progression, that it is a piece of that pie, but it's not the whole thing.

But then again, what do I know? I'm only a cadet.

[Short Field]

Besides, as long as he encourages the other cadets to promote without sounding like a hypocryte, it's a non-problem.

Yep, the "Do as I say, not as I do" mode of leadership is a real winner and sure to set any unit apart from the rest.