NEC approves GT uniform requirement

[JohnKachenmeister]

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.  I spent a year there between Corps School (now closed) and Camp Pendleton (still open, I think).  But the rest of the state is pretty anti-military.  I mean... CALENEMA or whatever that is is so offended by the military uniform that they ban wearing it on missions.  I'll bet all them guys still have ponytails.  San Francisco City Council banned ROTC from the schools.

[JayT]

Ah, mature the extreme. CALENEMA. Funny what you did there. You took the initialism for California Emergency Management Agency, added an EN to make it look like "enema."

Do you have any photos of California emergency officals or shrieffs with a pony tail? (Because clearly someone with a pony tail is a pinko, second amendment stomping anti war protestor....non of which has anything to do with emergency management I believe.)

Again, do you have any proof whatsoever that this is an affront to the military, and not a safety concern and extension of rules that already apply to other volunteer SAR groups?

Also, the ban on Junior ROTC in SF schools was reversed.

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.  I spent a year there between Corps School (now closed) and Camp Pendleton (still open, I think).  But the rest of the state is pretty anti-military.  I mean... CALENEMA or whatever that is is so offended by the military uniform that they ban wearing it on missions.  I'll bet all them guys still have ponytails.  San Francisco City Council banned ROTC from the schools.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I just call it like I see it. 

[JayT]

I just call it like I see it.

So it would appear.

[PHall]

I just call it like I see it.

You need glases then.


(I'm a retired Air Force Reserve member, so please don't try the "I don't know what I'm talking about" line please. It won't fly.)

[N Harmon]

It's hard not to detect a hint of anti-military in the insistence that CAP conform to state and local ES types. Especially when the GT uniform prohibits military badges. Not to mention the follow up remarks about CAP not being commandos and therefore shouldn't carry "tactical" vests or packs.

[JayT]

It's hard not to detect a hint of anti-military in the insistence that CAP conform to state and local ES types. Especially when the GT uniform prohibits military badges. Not to mention the follow up remarks about CAP not being commandos and therefore shouldn't carry "tactical" vests or packs.

Military badges aren't allowed because it's not an AF approved uniform. Tactical vests and packs doesn't always put out the best messages.

People begin to judge someone the second you step infront of them. A fourteen year old cadet wearing a thirty year old rucksack and ALICE gear doesn't convey "professionalism," it conveys "wannabism."

Again, people are claiming antimiliterism from state emergency managment officals and law enforcement officials who may very well have a military backround.

[billford1]

How bout blue BDU trousers, a polo shirt and the reflective CAP Ball Cap for the GT? That wouldn't cost much.

[Eagle400]

I will grant you that San Diego County is less liberal than the rest of the state.

Yes, but still behind Ventura County.

VC is the Cornerstone of California's traditional commonwealth, with Orange County as the friendly cousin.  These are the only 2 conservative counties left in the entire state.  When people ask me "where in CA should I move", I always tell them Ventura County.       

Without VC and OC, California would fall apart sociologically... and the living concept of "Traditional California Nuclear Family values" would all but shrivel up, and... well... disappear.       

We are essentially the cornerstone of California (and to that end, the only bastion of hope for traditional conservatives).  Except for Orange County, which comes in a close 2nd.     

San Diego's alright --still a whole lot better than L.A. County-- but VC is the best choice by far (in the whole state).


Oh yeah... There's also a huge Navy community here too (Naval Base Ventura County -- Pt. Mugu and Port Hueneme).  Also among us is a sizable Air National Guard community (Channel Islands Air National Guard Station, located at Pt. Mugu). 

Great place to live, very comparable to the Midwest and South.       

[heliodoc]

You'd be suprised how many former RM types and LE types have went to emergency management...

So to say that CAL EMA is lame in its decisions about "uniforms" is pretty off target

Plenty of ex military went these routes and often DO KNOW what they are talking about

This is my second time around CAP and it IS amazing that the "CORPORATION" in its zeal to be a "major player" in ES has the membership chirping about THEIR (CAL EMA ) and the decision about THEIR requirements and how some here on CAPTalk assail as some big problem to go to a uniform that can be seen!!

But this is CAPTalk...where even professional agencies get questioned by CAPers about  other agencies decision and how it affects CAP uniform wear..

I think it best BEHOOOOVE CAP to clean up its 39-1 and come ito the future of ES.... If we are THAT GOOD then an orange or some other color shirt or piece of clothing that can be seen, is not going to matter to the mission.

CALENEMA, huh? NIIIICE   IF I was that EM  and was reading this rag...I'd be talking to the Winng CC about future missions (or not) for CAP

[JayT]

When soldiers partcipate in wildland fire fighting, they normally don't wear ACU's or what not, they wear woodland firefighting gear. Its a uniform and set of equipment that was developed based off of decades of trial and error and learned lessons. It doesn't make them lesser soldiers, nore is it a spit in the face of their service. Its a matter of safety, orders, and need.

I've also seen photos of guys from the 911th Engineer's wearing FEMA USAR gear.

[davidsinn]

When soldiers partcipate in wildland fire fighting, they normally don't wear ACU's or what not, they wear woodland firefighting gear. Its a uniform and set of equipment that was developed based off of decades of trial and error and learned lessons. It doesn't make them lesser soldiers, nore is it a spit in the face of their service. Its a matter of safety, orders, and need.

That is safety gear. This is not. How is this stupid orange shirt any different than an orange vest over our uniform?

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

I have spent approx 20 yrs in wildland fire in some form or another

Spent an equal amount of time in the US Army and Army Guard in aviation operations

To know about both that JTheman talks about....

So let's say that IS CAL EMA's argument for "safety clothing." Sure the orange vests will do....

Problem is......CAP ers, like many, like to grumble about all the little things that occur as change.

Another problem...how much money has the average CAPer bought in bling and geardo field gear that a 32 to 50 dollar shirt is going to affect their participation in missions.

If CAL EMA says to CAP...Orange it is and if that is the approval from both CAL State Gov and approved by NEC..... wellll then CAP by virtue of CAL EMA driving these issues...oh well...its pretty much a done deal.

CAPer can go 'round and 'round about what is and what is not safety gear...

CAP's new found safety program and its originators has a LOOOOOOONG way to go (in comparison to other safety organizations that have an already ESTABLISHED safety culture and one that have MORE than ONLINE tests) to start telling others what is and what is not safety gear.

There plenty of stupid shirts out there and CAP is guilty of stupid moves in clothing and hat wear, also, truth be told....

[a2capt]

How is this stupid orange shirt any different than an orange vest over our uniform?

It's very simple. "you" (whoever) didn't invent it. Someone back when probably thought that a shirt looked better than a reflective vest over top.  Who knows.

Since we don't have the actual whatever it is that has been approved, yet,  we don't know what it really is. But if the CAWG thing was actually sent up the chain and back, and something else was in the works, it would be really silly to have them be totally different. So..

Maybe that whole bit about what happens when CA goes into AZ or NV..  or they come into CA.. will be moot.

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

I have spent approx 20 yrs in wildland fire in some form or another

Spent an equal amount of time in the US Army and Army Guard in aviation operations

To know about both that JTheman talks about....

So let's say that IS CAL EMA's argument for "safety clothing." Sure the orange vests will do....

Problem is......CAP ers, like many, like to grumble about all the little things that occur as change.

Another problem...how much money has the average CAPer bought in bling and geardo field gear that a 32 to 50 dollar shirt is going to affect their participation in missions.

If CAL EMA says to CAP...Orange it is and if that is the approval from both CAL State Gov and approved by NEC..... wellll then CAP by virtue of CAL EMA driving these issues...oh well...its pretty much a done deal.

CAPer can go 'round and 'round about what is and what is not safety gear...

CAP's new found safety program and its originators has a LOOOOOOONG way to go (in comparison to other safety organizations that have an already ESTABLISHED safety culture and one that have MORE than ONLINE tests) to start telling others what is and what is not safety gear.

There plenty of stupid shirts out there and CAP is guilty of stupid moves in clothing and hat wear, also, truth be told....

Simple fact of the matter is CA is treating our organization differently than they treat others. It is not required to have that stupid shirt to be in SAR , however we must.

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

How is CAL EMA treating us different than others??

Like everything else here on CAPTalk....talk is cheap or is that cheeeeeep.  Prove that, in print, or the famous CAPTalk cry....CITE PLEASE that CAP is being treated different...Maybe then you got a case to CRY...wait for it.......DISCRIMINATION...

Do the other SAR organizations (volunteer, not paid like SO and LE) wear BDU's?

I haven't seen the REAL text on this issue....but a bunch of volunteers in BDU's is a liability to other paid organizations as far as  the EMA, State LE types and quite possibly the lawyers at the State level....could that be a very distinct possibility??

Could be stupid rule for a stupid shirt.....write a letter up your chain of command and Arnold.......I am sure I know would happen to that letter

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

How is CAL EMA treating us different than others??

Like everything else here on CAPTalk....talk is cheap or is that cheeeeeep.  Prove that, in print, or the famous CAPTalk cry....CITE PLEASE that CAP is being treated different...Maybe then you got a case to CRY...wait for it.......DISCRIMINATION...

Do the other SAR organizations (volunteer, not paid like SO and LE) wear BDU's?

I haven't seen the REAL text on this issue....but a bunch of volunteers in BDU's is a liability to other paid organizations as far as  the EMA, State LE types and quite possibly the lawyers at the State level....could that be a very distinct possibility??

Could be stupid rule for a stupid shirt.....write a letter up your chain of command and Arnold.......I am sure I know would happen to that letter

Others on this board have already shown CA SAR groups that don't wear this ridiculous uniform. If they don't have to then why should we? I don't really have a dog in the fight. I'm several thousand miles away and I'm not planning on ever visiting CA. I just don't want to see this stupidity spread to the more sane parts of the nation.

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

We need to stay in BDUs because that's our uniform. Our members already own it. Throw a vest over it and you are visible. It works in the other 51 wings. Why is CA any different?

It's not the uniform that'll prevent me from ever visiting. It's the extreme distance and the incredibly stupid laws they have out there. That and I just have no interest in visiting that state.

[JayT]

Mr Sinn


I do not have a dog in the fight either.  However, I spent 3 summers in CA fighting fire in places people would die to visit or go camping
(Northern and NE CA and as far South a South Zone LA and further)

To say you are not going to visit CA due to uni issues is pretty silly.

Stupidity to you, maybe.  The rest of CAP needs a "come to Jesus) moment on how it NEEDS to play on others missions.

I still would like to see (in TEXT) the the reasoning and who were the players deciding it.   

Who says CAP needs to remain in BDU's to remain a support search and locate function to other agencies?  Maybe PAPA 1 AF will see the reasoning to get CAP into some new duds...to keep CAP happy as a CORPORATION and the AF happy that the fat and fuzzies and others in CAP will be wearing something they do not have to monitor 'cuz some in CAP act like morons while in AF uniform.....

We need to stay in BDUs because that's our uniform. Our members already own it. Throw a vest over it and you are visible. It works in the other 51 wings. Why is CA any different?

It's not the uniform that'll prevent me from ever visiting. It's the extreme distance and the incredibly stupid laws they have out there. That and I just have no interest in visiting that state.

Well, when you get down to it, I guess the simple answer is that CAWG's leadership and the emergency management officals who are incharge have ordered it. From my own limited understanding of the situation, this has been a uniform that California Wing, Colorado Wing, and a few other places have tossed around for a while.

Again, from my limited understanding of the situation, it would also appear there may be other concerns as well. Perhaps a few too many GTM's were wearing gear or combat vests over their safety vests. Perhaps this will allow CAP types to wear whatever they want, and still remain visiable. Also, I noticed a prohbition on rank or grade insignia. Many CAP officers and cadets fail to realize that in law enforcement, EMS, and the fire service, someone wearing railroad tracks or oak leafs is a high ranking officer, a policy setting officer, not just another team member or staffer.

Again, when you get down to it, if the bosses want it that way, that's the way it is. Perhaps the better solution would be some sort of grant to supply GTMs with these shirts, or create a common stock of them.

A Soldier or Marine or Airmen wearing a wildland or USAR rig is not any less of a serviceman/woman because they're not in "their uniform," are they?