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FW
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 10:14:12 PM »

^Well, technically, no taxpayer dollars were harmed or used at this event..... ;D
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mynetdude
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM »

Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
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Major Lord
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2010, 10:15:51 PM »

The broadest reading of the chart would seem to prohibit acting as a color guard at pretty much any public event. So we will expect to see a host of IG complaints the next Fourth of July when those horrible little cadets go out and raise the colors at activities that knowingly and willfully offer "political speech" in support of the Country, The Constitution, and the Flag?  I can understand not participating in protests, but if we can't support pro-American activities, what can we support?

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
RiverAux
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2010, 10:16:45 PM »

Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.
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Nathan
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2010, 10:23:12 PM »

Uniform wear at political events is explicitly forbidden. (Unless the Air Force approves it, and the odds of that are virtually nil.)

I can see heads rolling for this.

Just curious. What constitutes a "political event"? If the President is giving some sort of speech, and the colors are posted by the CAP color guard, and the speech has some sort of thumbing-of-the-nose at a Republican measure, is the event now political?

To be clear, I'm not a Tea Party supporter, nor am I trying to even barracks-lawyer the members out of what should have been a pretty clear situation of a "political event." I'm just curious as to where the line is, since "supporting the President", while usually okay because he's the C&C, is almost always going to result in the "support" of a speech on his party's behalf.
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Nathan Scalia

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RiverAux
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2010, 10:24:32 PM »

Uniform wear at political events is explicitly forbidden. (Unless the Air Force approves it, and the odds of that are virtually nil.)

I can see heads rolling for this.

Just curious. What constitutes a "political event"? If the President is giving some sort of speech, and the colors are posted by the CAP color guard, and the speech has some sort of thumbing-of-the-nose at a Republican measure, is the event now political?
Simple, ask the Air Force.  If they authorize it, its ok by our regulations.
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Major Lord
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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2010, 10:32:42 PM »

I am sure we have approval in writing for  "Wreaths across America" from the Air Force, right? Does anyone have direct knowledge of an adverse personnel action taken against a member of CAP for raising the colors anywhere on American soil?

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
mynetdude
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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2010, 10:35:44 PM »

Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.

Does congress actually set aside tax dollars for CAP? I know they do for USAF, that's part of their defense funds.  Yeah sure our tax dollars at one point paid for uniforms the cadets are wearing now also remember that servicemen do regularly purchase new uniforms with their own funds and are donated (sometimes) when not needed so its NOT just tax dollars that pay for it.

What about donations? I don't think the purchase of vans and aircraft are ALL tax dollars.  In fact I had a member tell me that cadets actually pay for their uniform as part of their membership dues (and I am a little puzzled by that for a reason) ok so cadet gets free uniform voucher and NHQ sends uniform to cadets and makes sense if that means they paid for that uniform when they signed up HOWEVER regulations stipulate that cadets (and senior members) must return squadron issued uniforms should the member not maintain membership beyond their first year. If that is the case why not allow a SM to purchase uniform from NHQ during their first membership signup?

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mynetdude
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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2010, 10:36:19 PM »

I am sure we have approval in writing for  "Wreaths across America" from the Air Force, right? Does anyone have direct knowledge of an adverse personnel action taken against a member of CAP for raising the colors anywhere on American soil?

Major Lord

IMHO WAA isn't political far from it, its to honor the fallen no approval needed.
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Major Lord
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« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2010, 10:49:41 PM »

There are many people on the left who would disagree with you, ask Cindy Sheehan, she will give you an earful. . If you are arguing that Commander's have the ability and responsibility to distinguish an appropriate activity from an inappropriate one, without "asking the Air Force" ( May as well write a letter to Santa Claus....) I would have to agree with you.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
lordmonar
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« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2010, 10:51:34 PM »

Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?
I don't remember ever getting a single dime out of the government/NHQ/Wing for support for my Color Guard.

As for the event we did....we the Nevada Republican Party bought us a new flag as a token for our support.  I don't know if that makes it better or worse.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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mynetdude
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« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2010, 10:55:17 PM »

There are many people on the left who would disagree with you, ask Cindy Sheehan, she will give you an earful. . If you are arguing that Commander's have the ability and responsibility to distinguish an appropriate activity from an inappropriate one, without "asking the Air Force" ( May as well write a letter to Santa Claus....) I would have to agree with you.

Major Lord

you talking about WAA? I have no idea who Cindy Sheehan is, but you brought up another topic for another thread... commanders are like the REST of the membership how are they to be able to determine what is appropriate and isn't? Heck, can the AF figure it out for themselves? They are collectively just as human as we are; although they ARE our boss!
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lordmonar
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« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2010, 10:56:51 PM »

I am sure we have approval in writing for  "Wreaths across America" from the Air Force, right? Does anyone have direct knowledge of an adverse personnel action taken against a member of CAP for raising the colors anywhere on American soil?

Major Lord

IMHO WAA isn't political far from it, its to honor the fallen no approval needed.
The problem is....the nature of the event may in and of itself not be political....but if WAA or the Veterens day or 4th of July celebration includes polititans making speeches.......have we or have we not crossed that line.

If we can't go to present the colors a T-party Rally or an Election Rally.....where is the line drawn.....who makes the call....and how do I get my request to him so I don't end up getting called to the carpet?

The little guy in the field wants to know.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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mynetdude
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« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2010, 10:58:39 PM »

Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?
I don't remember ever getting a single dime out of the government/NHQ/Wing for support for my Color Guard.

As for the event we did....we the Nevada Republican Party bought us a new flag as a token for our support.  I don't know if that makes it better or worse.

I would hear from squadron members who would speak at a staff meeting or squadron meeting and comment that there were/are members of the community who request an honor guard or color guard that ask if they are required to pay CAP for services rendered (of course we tell them no, a donation is gladly accepted however) but we don't ask for a donation we don't even mention (unless asked) it the cadets do it and have a good time and leave when it is appropriate to do so.
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mynetdude
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« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2010, 11:01:27 PM »

I am sure we have approval in writing for  "Wreaths across America" from the Air Force, right? Does anyone have direct knowledge of an adverse personnel action taken against a member of CAP for raising the colors anywhere on American soil?

Major Lord

IMHO WAA isn't political far from it, its to honor the fallen no approval needed.
The problem is....the nature of the event may in and of itself not be political....but if WAA or the Veterens day or 4th of July celebration includes polititans making speeches.......have we or have we not crossed that line.

If we can't go to present the colors a T-party Rally or an Election Rally.....where is the line drawn.....who makes the call....and how do I get my request to him so I don't end up getting called to the carpet?

The little guy in the field wants to know.

Yes I realize it may INCLUDE politicians making speeches, but not every event HAS a politician making a speech. IIRC our WAA didn't have a politician available so is it safe?  4th of July although I think had city council or mayor I can't remember they count as a politician? But are they making a political speech? Just because they are politicians does not mean everything they say is political.
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JayT
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« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2010, 11:11:39 PM »

Give the controversy around the Tea Parties, would it really be something that CAP should put itself out for? It's also pretty clear that it is a partisan event surpporting certain party canidates.

Remember that soldier who got in trouble for announcing (in uniform) that he 'was speaking to the next commander in chief) at a Rudy Guiliani rally?
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heliodoc
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« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2010, 11:21:41 PM »

WOW

All this talk about uniforms, color guards etc at politico events...

BITD ....circa 1970's... there was a definite explanation by Sqdn CC's / Winng CC's about NOT wearing a uni and whatnot and it was pretty well explained during the daze of cadet programs of the 1970's and the no no's as to wear of the uniform .....especially political events

But since it's CAP Inc of 2010....do whatever ya want.
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mynetdude
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« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2010, 11:27:45 PM »

WOW

All this talk about uniforms, color guards etc at politico events...

BITD ....circa 1970's... there was a definite explanation by Sqdn CC's / Winng CC's about NOT wearing a uni and whatnot and it was pretty well explained during the daze of cadet programs of the 1970's and the no no's as to wear of the uniform .....especially political events

But since it's CAP Inc of 2010....do whatever ya want.

As mentioned before, some events don't seem to be political or at least aren't until a politician shows up. We're living in grey matter nowadays.
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Major Lord
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« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2010, 11:28:39 PM »

In your eyes, the WAA program may not be a political statement, but I will guarantee you that there are leftists and atheists who will be profoundly confirmed in their beliefs that CAP conducting memorial ceremonies with Christian Symbols in support of the dead of the wars will view it as political speech. Now if you are saying that this is not a political activity, you have used your discretion to make that determination. As far as I know, the Air Force is silent on the matter. If you are saying we (Commanders specifically) don't have leeway in determining which activities are within our proper purposes, then you are arguing that we need the Air Force to approve anything that even resembles a CAP public activity. I don't believe that to be the case. The AF does not want us out there throwing rocks and participating in demonstrations, or even going on stage in Uniform and saying " Candidate X is not such a bad guy", but that does not mean we can't carry out traditional color guard activities in ordinary civic activities.

Of course, the chart above the entry in question forbids doing even these things, in support of communists, fascists, etc. You can still support socialists, since they don't advocate (openly) the overthrow of the United States by unconstitutional means. ( Of course, I believe a socialist is just a communist who is good at hiding his AK)

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
Short Field
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« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2010, 11:36:53 PM »

In your eyes, the WAA program may not be a political statement, but I will guarantee you that there are leftists and atheists who will be profoundly confirmed in their beliefs that CAP conducting memorial ceremonies with Christian Symbols in support of the dead of the wars will view it as political speech.
I missed the Christian symbols that CAP was using, what were they?   Also please provide a cite for the leftists and atheists believing that?   I already know you believe that.
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