Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

Started by ßτε, April 11, 2010, 03:35:03 pm

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DG

Quote from: bte on April 11, 2010, 03:35:03 pm
Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

If so, can you give a specific reference?



There actually are some dumb questions!

Forget the expression, "There are no dumb questions," because....

THIS is a dumb question!

Short Field

This question is in Knowledgebase.  Level I is not required by NHQ for a Fm 5 however it specifically states that a local supplement can require it. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Short Field

Quote from: DG on April 11, 2010, 08:29:09 pm
Why would you want to do a Form 5 before completing Level 1?


Why not if you are ready to do it and chomping at the bit to get going? 

I can find no reason you cannot be a o'ride pilot and not have Level 1.  CPPT can be hard to get without finishing level 1, but I am sure with a little help, it is very doable.  Just don't look to me to help.   ;D
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

EMT-83


ßτε

I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.

PHall

Quote from: bte on April 11, 2010, 11:28:53 pm
I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.


I know I'm speaking sacrilege here, but let's use a little logic.

Why would you make somebody a Cadet Orientation Pilot if they can not work with cadets? ???

davidsinn

Quote from: PHall on April 11, 2010, 11:40:58 pm
Quote from: bte on April 11, 2010, 11:28:53 pm
I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.


I know I'm speaking sacrilege here, but let's use a little logic.

Why would you make somebody a Cadet Orientation Pilot if they can not work with cadets? ???


Yeah that would be pure hell for an O-ride coordinator. I don't want to start checking pilots for CPPT before I schedule rides.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

FW

The question really is: can a member without level one get a form 5 ride to fly a corp. aircraft, to fly proficiency towards MP status or Cadet Orientation pilot status?  They can not be assigned as a mission pilot or cadet o'flight pilot (see 50-17). The answer is, yes.  HOWEVER, I seriously doubt any unit/cc would let this happen.  We have current mission pilots, o'flight pilots, transport mission pilots, qualified mission pilot candidates, cadet student pilots, etc.  A member not having level 1 would be at the bottom of a pretty deep heap.  By the time they made it to the top, level 1 would (should) have been long done with. 
IMHO, any "member" not making level 1 his first priority probably won't be a member for long.  I wouldn't bother with a form 5... 

Hawk200

Seems like this call would be up to the commander. If the commander says no Form 5 until Level 1 is done, then that's what goes.

I'm a little surprised that there are people that don't think it's necessary.

heliodoc

Once again....

With all the emphasis of checklists in CAP and boxes to fill out...

It would make entirely TOO much sense to make a map or pathway for ALL to reads and follow so these questions do not have to be hashed and rehashed.

The real problem with all this is:  A lack of true mentorship except for the very few who can, at least, get the new folks mapped out.  I was lucky in my former Wing.  It was pretty well laid out for the new SM to follow and a checklist was checked off (Just like some in the RM at PSNCO office) at each marker needing be done.

This OUGHT to been done in the "New Start" or whatever it was called.  If it was NOT explained in there (which I do not recall) then IT NEEDS to be.  Sure CAPtalkers can say "wHHHHY all the spoon feeding?"  I say where is the true LEADERSHIP and MENTORSHIP in both paperwork and actions in CAP.

This would (hopefully) would end the necessary or unnecessary problems

But then, I have been wrong before and probably EXPECT TOO much from a "professional" 68 yr old organization........

Hawk200

Quote from: heliodoc on April 13, 2010, 07:54:58 pmIt would make entirely TOO much sense to make a map or pathway for ALL to reads and follow so these questions do not have to be hashed and rehashed.

Which is probably why it hasn't been done. Someone would get fired over it. Or work themselves out of a job.

FW

Quote from: heliodoc on April 13, 2010, 07:54:58 pm
Once again....


The real problem with all this is:  A lack of true mentorship except for the very few who can, at least, get the new folks mapped out.  I was lucky in my former Wing.  It was pretty well laid out for the new SM to follow and a checklist was checked off (Just like some in the RM at PSNCO office) at each marker needing be done.

This OUGHT to been done in the "New Start" or whatever it was called.  If it was NOT explained in there (which I do not recall) then IT NEEDS to be.  Sure CAPtalkers can say "wHHHHY all the spoon feeding?"  I say where is the true LEADERSHIP and MENTORSHIP in both paperwork and actions in CAP.

This would (hopefully) would end the necessary or unnecessary problems

But then, I have been wrong before and probably EXPECT TOO much from a "professional" 68 yr old organization........


I agree that proper mentorship (proper care and feeding of new members) is essential for their success in CAP.  We should not expect less however, not everything should be written down for all to follow.  There are quite a few paths to get to any goal and we should allow unit commanders the latitude to keep things kosher.  Every squadron's dynamics are different and we should not, IMHO, expect the same methods to work everywhere.  Common sense should be allowed sometimes...

Capt Rivera

So does anyone (Squadron, Wing or Group) have an approved supplement that would restrict Form 5 to be taken after Level I?

Please attach, link or e-mail.  Thanks
//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org

lordmonar

I don't think one would be necessary.

Here is the scenerio.

New member wants to fly....you tell him do your level I and then we will get you up in the plane.

Member jumps up and down saying that you MUST allow him to do a from 5 ride for him!

If I were the commander member would not get a form 5.

Other scenerio.

Level I takes NO TIME AT ALL to complete!  He has not taken the time to do OPSEC, Foundations, CPP and ORM....but has found time to do the Form 5 Questionaire, Aircraft Ground Handeling video.....I think he needs to have a mentoring session about priorities.

Now second scenrio.

Member just gets his CAP ID, there is a CAP Flying clinic the following week end....maybe.....just maybe.....I could see using the opportunity of training clinic to get him in the class and get his form 5.   But I would also make sure that while he was jumping through all the hoops to get his form 5 that he would also be getting his level I done.

Again......a new member is not in any position to be demanding their "rights" and forcing a unit to provide a form 5.

He, of course, is always allowed to go up the chain if he feels we are violating regulations in some way.

I just don't see Wing/Region/National siding with some new guy who can't be bothered to do his Level I.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

The problem here is that it does not require a CC's approval to actually fly the check ride, only to approve the results, so in many wings its
possible and even likely that a new member could connect directly with a check pilot and arrange for the flight without even informing the CC (which, of course raises other issues).

In that case I would not approve the flight online until such time as the Level 1 is completed and recorded, but at that point the risk we're basically discussing has already occurred.



lordmonar

That is assuming you are the one doing the FR.  ;D


Bottom line....okay...the regs do not say you MUST have Level I....but it is pretty well implied in just about everthing that we do.....no one does anything with out level.

One would assume that a new member is getting mentored enough to complete his level I before he did any form 5/ES/PD/USAF PME or anything else for that matter.

One would also assume that if some new guy was jumping around demanding his "right" to fly before the commander says he can.....will find that he does not like CAP all that much (at least not in my squadron) because he will never get a green light to fly.

60-1 states that flying is a privilege not a right.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

CFI_Ed

Quote from: lordmonar on April 14, 2010, 08:15:47 pm
60-1 states that flying is a privilege not a right.

That pretty much sums everything up.
Ed Angala, Lt Col, CAP
Oklahoma Wing/DO