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Author Topic: Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?  (Read 6314 times)
τε
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« on: April 11, 2010, 03:35:03 PM »

Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

If so, can you give a specific reference?
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Bayareaflyer 44
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 04:21:16 PM »

A new member would be so restricted as to what they can do without having Level 1, not sure it would be worth it.

They could not do cadet o-rides without CPPT, and per CAPR 50-17 they cannot wear the AF-style flightuit (uniform).  Also, OPSEC is part of that mix - and why would someone give a F5 without that?

Really, is it that difficult to squeeze Level 1 out prior to the F5?
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Earhart #2546
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 04:29:48 PM »

Don't you need GES to get a form 5?

Major Lord
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 04:32:48 PM »

One does not need GES for a form 5.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 04:35:11 PM »

Even if it is not anywhere in the regulations......LEVEL I is required for anything you do in CAP!

And asy Bayareaflyer said.......it's not that hard to squeeze out Level I.  Instead of learning on how to schedule the plane in WMRS and learning where the Form 5 questionaire is.....take the foundations, CPP and OPSEC course!
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 04:38:26 PM »

Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

No.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 04:41:42 PM »

In Texas you don't do anything without CPPT, ORM, Ground Handling and a host of other things, by decree of the Wing Commander.   

CPPT, for example, is a "systemwide" necessity provided you want to be a cadet guru or not.  As an organization where Cadet Programs are one of the engrained missions, any adult may be working with Cadets at anytime.  For everyone's protection knowing these policies are criticial.

For example, I can safely assume that if several CAP Officers are standing around telling dirty jokes or relaying explicit sotries of romantic conquests with graphic detail...that would be a violation of Cadet Protection.  Heaven help those who do that and that commander that they are subordinate to.  Once the litigation against the Organization calms down you migth be personally libel to those cadets parents.  I am sure Ned would know more...but I can safely say that if it is discovered that there was no CPPT, head will roll.

You should also, as a matter of courtesy, learn about the history, traditions and expectations of the organization you join.  If one joins for "cheap flying" and that alone, then that one is in the wrong organization.
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 04:53:51 PM »

Would, should, could.  I agree, but the question was "required" with a request to cite regs.

Barring a properly approved and published local policy, there is no such requirement at the national level.  A member in Active status could fly in a golf shirt combo w/o LI being completed.

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heliodoc
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 05:02:45 PM »

I HAD to go through ALL the CAP knaptsions to include CPPT before the "cheap flying."

When will CAPTalkers realize that alot of flying folks do join CAP for the free and cheap flying...there are plenty of CFI's bulding dual given, plenty of CFI's, ATP's, and Commercial types trying to suck up as much cheap flying time as they can...me?  Can't afford it til a job offer comes my way.  But I sure can entertain the thought of cheaper flying time

All this talk about "cheap flying" is equal to the "cheaper flying we offer agencies." 

So the arguments about cheap flying can keep coming....I see all the time as the Sqdn Safety Officer and plenty in CAP will sell the the cheaper flying..

No C&D or gag order on the cheap flying time.......CAP sells ALL the time...

So respectfully, lay off the pilots who come into looking for the very thing CAP advertises..........CHEAP

Pilots will so learn about the myriad of regs and other activities in CAP that get thrown at one to get the mission accomplished....that will be the deciding factor who stays and who goes..see all the time even 30 yrs later and second time around CAP.

But the argument of CAP and cheap flying time will never go away UNTIL CAP gets professional enough to say we offer a SERVICE and leave the the words.......We can do it cheaper than anyone else or agency....Some folks already KNOW this.......

Some just don't always buy the cheap argument...... How about leadership at all levels to keep the interest of the newbie?  If flying is their game...so what?  CAP  is Civil AIR Patrol and ALWAYS has been advertised as such...

Some CAPTalkers just  can not get over that AIR part...How about sellin Civil Ground Patrol to the pilots of CAP yesteryear and today?

See how much traction that gets ya!   CHEAP!
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lordmonar
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 05:14:14 PM »

Would, should, could.  I agree, but the question was "required" with a request to cite regs.

Barring a properly approved and published local policy, there is no such requirement at the national level.  A member in Active status could fly in a golf shirt combo w/o LI being completed.

Come on man!  Are you such a robot that you are going to spout this sort of tripe.

The spirit of the regulations is a thousand times more important than the the letter.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 05:17:28 PM »

I HAD to go through ALL the CAP knaptsions to include CPPT before the "cheap flying."

When will CAPTalkers realize that alot of flying folks do join CAP for the free and cheap flying...there are plenty of CFI's bulding dual given, plenty of CFI's, ATP's, and Commercial types trying to suck up as much cheap flying time as they can...me?  Can't afford it til a job offer comes my way.  But I sure can entertain the thought of cheaper flying time

All this talk about "cheap flying" is equal to the "cheaper flying we offer agencies." 

So the arguments about cheap flying can keep coming....I see all the time as the Sqdn Safety Officer and plenty in CAP will sell the the cheaper flying..

No C&D or gag order on the cheap flying time.......CAP sells ALL the time...

So respectfully, lay off the pilots who come into looking for the very thing CAP advertises..........CHEAP

Pilots will so learn about the myriad of regs and other activities in CAP that get thrown at one to get the mission accomplished....that will be the deciding factor who stays and who goes..see all the time even 30 yrs later and second time around CAP.

But the argument of CAP and cheap flying time will never go away UNTIL CAP gets professional enough to say we offer a SERVICE and leave the the words.......We can do it cheaper than anyone else or agency....Some folks already KNOW this.......

Some just don't always buy the cheap argument...... How about leadership at all levels to keep the interest of the newbie?  If flying is their game...so what?  CAP  is Civil AIR Patrol and ALWAYS has been advertised as such...

Some CAPTalkers just  can not get over that AIR part...How about sellin Civil Ground Patrol to the pilots of CAP yesteryear and today?

See how much traction that gets ya!   CHEAP!

What brought that on?  No one was pilot bashing here.  One thinks that maybe you are too senstive to the situation.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 05:20:03 PM »

I HAD to go through ALL the CAP knaptsions to include CPPT before the "cheap flying."

When will CAPTalkers realize that alot of flying folks do join CAP for the free and cheap flying...there are plenty of CFI's bulding dual given, plenty of CFI's, ATP's, and Commercial types trying to suck up as much cheap flying time as they can...me?  Can't afford it til a job offer comes my way.  But I sure can entertain the thought of cheaper flying time

All this talk about "cheap flying" is equal to the "cheaper flying we offer agencies." 

So the arguments about cheap flying can keep coming....I see all the time as the Sqdn Safety Officer and plenty in CAP will sell the the cheaper flying..

No C&D or gag order on the cheap flying time.......CAP sells ALL the time...

So respectfully, lay off the pilots who come into looking for the very thing CAP advertises..........CHEAP

Pilots will so learn about the myriad of regs and other activities in CAP that get thrown at one to get the mission accomplished....that will be the deciding factor who stays and who goes..see all the time even 30 yrs later and second time around CAP.

But the argument of CAP and cheap flying time will never go away UNTIL CAP gets professional enough to say we offer a SERVICE and leave the the words.......We can do it cheaper than anyone else or agency....Some folks already KNOW this.......

Some just don't always buy the cheap argument...... How about leadership at all levels to keep the interest of the newbie?  If flying is their game...so what?  CAP  is Civil AIR Patrol and ALWAYS has been advertised as such...

Some CAPTalkers just  can not get over that AIR part...How about sellin Civil Ground Patrol to the pilots of CAP yesteryear and today?

See how much traction that gets ya!   CHEAP!

Oh...I will not negate the "cheap flying" is there and should be taken advantage of; however, in a world where we are a service organization all had better be ready to serve.  In fact, I would go as far as to say that the Capt John Smith creedo of "those that shall not work, shall not eat" will be applied changed to read, "those that do not fly missions, will not fly."

Being able to fly in that manner, inexpensive, promotes proficiency.  That is why it is as it is.   Proficiency over currency is a valid point.  However, if I can be called out on a work night from my bed to race to an isolated airport to silence an ELT at 0300L, then any qualified CAP pilot should be able to fly cadet O-flights, missions and attend occasional REDCAP and SARex activities.

You have to "pay the piper..." and that is how it should be.
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 05:27:59 PM »

Would, should, could.  I agree, but the question was "required" with a request to cite regs.

Barring a properly approved and published local policy, there is no such requirement at the national level.  A member in Active status could fly in a golf shirt combo w/o LI being completed.

Come on man!  Are you such a robot that you are going to spout this sort of tripe.

The spirit of the regulations is a thousand times more important than the the letter.

Seriously?  I would think that by now you'd know that this isn't something I'd agree with or encourage, but the regs are clear, and
messing with how and when a CAP pilot can fly, or qualify, gets people in trouble all the time - this is why we have pilots
flying for years in 000, because 60-1 doesn't make any requirement of belonging to a unit or having a commander to be a CAP pilot.

Allowing someone with a wet ID and no Level I to take a form 5 is a bad idea, but there are, occasionally, times when a confluence
of factors might make this "expedient", if not the best idea ever.

And considering that there are still plenty of Unit CC's who think that Level I is completed 100% online, is it really going to matter that
much if Joe Pilot takes the time to learn enough about CAP to complete the F5 process properly but hasn't been able to spend quality time with his unit CC?

What about the stars aligning on an airplane that is only going to be at the unit a specific amount of time?

The question was not "Is this a good idea?"  The question was "required?".  Its not.
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heliodoc
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2010, 05:41:19 PM »

Sorry Pat

No sensitivities here and don't know where you get that idea.  Just bringing up some more that I hear when others in CAP "sell" the cheap flying time rather than detailing the other things to get done.  There are CAPTalkers here, waaay more sensitive than me, especially with the silly uniform issues...

CAP has NO requirements in the order things get done to a Form 5

The perpetual word "cheap flying" is thrown around here like a nasty four letter word around which in some cases lends itself to the proverbial pilot bashing.

MAYBE IF CAP would lay the requirements in a steps 1 through whatever coherent order as it should have over its 68 year time span....these issues of Level I and CPPT  could better interpreted

Sensitivities?  NAWW   CAP getting itself in professional order after 68 yrs?  If this was perfect CAP world...Maybe

Sorry for your misinterpretation, Pat.  Just like the many interpretations in  CAP!!

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Short Field
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2010, 05:57:19 PM »

"Cheap Flying"?  I guess that refers to the "members" who only show up once a year for the funded Fm 5 flights (and a biannual flight check every other year).  They do the required safety meeting at the required Fm 5 ground school (at least in our wing) and then are good to go.  I met one pilot at the ground school and asked which unit he belonged to.  I was the deputy commander of that unit and I had never seen him at a meeting since I had joined.

Of course CAP is cheap flying for pilots.  However, the cheap shots are aimed at the people who ONLY participate in flying to support their need for cheaper flying - no SAR missions, no o'rides, and no CFI/check pilot rides to train other people.
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Wilson #2640
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2010, 06:06:20 PM »

Here's what CAPR 50-17 says:
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.

I'll let you guys fight it out about the "cheap flying" ;D
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Major Lord
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2010, 07:17:53 PM »

60-1

"CAP members will wear an appropriate CAP uniform and carry proof of CAP membership. Only occupants of CAP gliders and crew members requested not to wear uniforms by the customer of a CD Mission are exempt from the CAP uniform requirement."

No level one, no uniform. How do you get your form 5 without violating the uniform requirement?

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davidsinn
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2010, 07:45:40 PM »

60-1

"CAP members will wear an appropriate CAP uniform and carry proof of CAP membership. Only occupants of CAP gliders and crew members requested not to wear uniforms by the customer of a CD Mission are exempt from the CAP uniform requirement."

No level one, no uniform. How do you get your form 5 without violating the uniform requirement?

Major Lord

Because appropriate CAP uniform does not mean AF style. 50-17 only requires lvl 1 for AF style uniforms.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2010, 08:23:42 PM »

Aaah, Thats interesting! Although level one is required to wear the AF style Uniform, the regs are silent on when a new member can wear a distinctive uniform. ( As far as I could find ) I think the TPU would be a good uniform for flying.....it would make other agencies think that we are airline pilots!

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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
DG
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »

Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

If so, can you give a specific reference?



Why would you want to do a Form 5 before completing Level 1?

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DG
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 08:31:26 PM »

Is Level I required prior to a Form 5 check flight?

If so, can you give a specific reference?


There actually are some dumb questions!

Forget the expression, "There are no dumb questions," because....

THIS is a dumb question!
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Short Field
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 08:34:19 PM »

This question is in Knowledgebase.  Level I is not required by NHQ for a Fm 5 however it specifically states that a local supplement can require it. 
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Wilson #2640
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 08:45:26 PM »

Why would you want to do a Form 5 before completing Level 1?

 Why not if you are ready to do it and chomping at the bit to get going? 

I can find no reason you cannot be a o'ride pilot and not have Level 1.  CPPT can be hard to get without finishing level 1, but I am sure with a little help, it is very doable.  Just don't look to me to help.   ;D
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 08:53:26 PM »

Question for the OP. Has this been a problem?
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 11:28:53 PM »

I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.
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PHall
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 11:40:58 PM »

I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.

I know I'm speaking sacrilege here, but let's use a little logic.

Why would you make somebody a Cadet Orientation Pilot if they can not work with cadets? ???
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davidsinn
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 12:55:58 AM »

I was thinking that it was required, but could not find a regulation stating such. So I asked.

I also cannot find anywhere that one must have CPPT before being appointed as a cadet orientation pilot. Of course they wouldn't be allowed to actually conduct an orientation flight without CPPT.

I know I'm speaking sacrilege here, but let's use a little logic.

Why would you make somebody a Cadet Orientation Pilot if they can not work with cadets? ???

Yeah that would be pure hell for an O-ride coordinator. I don't want to start checking pilots for CPPT before I schedule rides.
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 01:11:29 AM »

The question really is: can a member without level one get a form 5 ride to fly a corp. aircraft, to fly proficiency towards MP status or Cadet Orientation pilot status?  They can not be assigned as a mission pilot or cadet o'flight pilot (see 50-17). The answer is, yes.  HOWEVER, I seriously doubt any unit/cc would let this happen.  We have current mission pilots, o'flight pilots, transport mission pilots, qualified mission pilot candidates, cadet student pilots, etc.  A member not having level 1 would be at the bottom of a pretty deep heap.  By the time they made it to the top, level 1 would (should) have been long done with. 
IMHO, any "member" not making level 1 his first priority probably won't be a member for long.  I wouldn't bother with a form 5... 
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Hawk200
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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 07:42:20 PM »

Seems like this call would be up to the commander. If the commander says no Form 5 until Level 1 is done, then that's what goes.

I'm a little surprised that there are people that don't think it's necessary.
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heliodoc
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 07:54:58 PM »

Once again....

With all the emphasis of checklists in CAP and boxes to fill out...

It would make entirely TOO much sense to make a map or pathway for ALL to reads and follow so these questions do not have to be hashed and rehashed.

The real problem with all this is:  A lack of true mentorship except for the very few who can, at least, get the new folks mapped out.  I was lucky in my former Wing.  It was pretty well laid out for the new SM to follow and a checklist was checked off (Just like some in the RM at PSNCO office) at each marker needing be done.

This OUGHT to been done in the "New Start" or whatever it was called.  If it was NOT explained in there (which I do not recall) then IT NEEDS to be.  Sure CAPtalkers can say "wHHHHY all the spoon feeding?"  I say where is the true LEADERSHIP and MENTORSHIP in both paperwork and actions in CAP.

This would (hopefully) would end the necessary or unnecessary problems

But then, I have been wrong before and probably EXPECT TOO much from a "professional" 68 yr old organization........
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Hawk200
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 08:08:04 PM »

It would make entirely TOO much sense to make a map or pathway for ALL to reads and follow so these questions do not have to be hashed and rehashed.
Which is probably why it hasn't been done. Someone would get fired over it. Or work themselves out of a job.
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 09:12:54 PM »

Once again....


The real problem with all this is:  A lack of true mentorship except for the very few who can, at least, get the new folks mapped out.  I was lucky in my former Wing.  It was pretty well laid out for the new SM to follow and a checklist was checked off (Just like some in the RM at PSNCO office) at each marker needing be done.

This OUGHT to been done in the "New Start" or whatever it was called.  If it was NOT explained in there (which I do not recall) then IT NEEDS to be.  Sure CAPtalkers can say "wHHHHY all the spoon feeding?"  I say where is the true LEADERSHIP and MENTORSHIP in both paperwork and actions in CAP.

This would (hopefully) would end the necessary or unnecessary problems

But then, I have been wrong before and probably EXPECT TOO much from a "professional" 68 yr old organization........

I agree that proper mentorship (proper care and feeding of new members) is essential for their success in CAP.  We should not expect less however, not everything should be written down for all to follow.  There are quite a few paths to get to any goal and we should allow unit commanders the latitude to keep things kosher.  Every squadron's dynamics are different and we should not, IMHO, expect the same methods to work everywhere.  Common sense should be allowed sometimes...
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Capt Rivera
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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2010, 05:02:38 PM »

So does anyone (Squadron, Wing or Group) have an approved supplement that would restrict Form 5 to be taken after Level I?

Please attach, link or e-mail.  Thanks
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lordmonar
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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2010, 07:21:00 PM »

I don't think one would be necessary.

Here is the scenerio.

New member wants to fly....you tell him do your level I and then we will get you up in the plane.

Member jumps up and down saying that you MUST allow him to do a from 5 ride for him!

If I were the commander member would not get a form 5.

Other scenerio.

Level I takes NO TIME AT ALL to complete!  He has not taken the time to do OPSEC, Foundations, CPP and ORM....but has found time to do the Form 5 Questionaire, Aircraft Ground Handeling video.....I think he needs to have a mentoring session about priorities.

Now second scenrio.

Member just gets his CAP ID, there is a CAP Flying clinic the following week end....maybe.....just maybe.....I could see using the opportunity of training clinic to get him in the class and get his form 5.   But I would also make sure that while he was jumping through all the hoops to get his form 5 that he would also be getting his level I done.

Again......a new member is not in any position to be demanding their "rights" and forcing a unit to provide a form 5.

He, of course, is always allowed to go up the chain if he feels we are violating regulations in some way.

I just don't see Wing/Region/National siding with some new guy who can't be bothered to do his Level I.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2010, 08:05:15 PM »

The problem here is that it does not require a CC's approval to actually fly the check ride, only to approve the results, so in many wings its
possible and even likely that a new member could connect directly with a check pilot and arrange for the flight without even informing the CC (which, of course raises other issues).

In that case I would not approve the flight online until such time as the Level 1 is completed and recorded, but at that point the risk we're basically discussing has already occurred.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2010, 08:15:47 PM »

That is assuming you are the one doing the FR.  ;D


Bottom line....okay...the regs do not say you MUST have Level I....but it is pretty well implied in just about everthing that we do.....no one does anything with out level.

One would assume that a new member is getting mentored enough to complete his level I before he did any form 5/ES/PD/USAF PME or anything else for that matter.

One would also assume that if some new guy was jumping around demanding his "right" to fly before the commander says he can.....will find that he does not like CAP all that much (at least not in my squadron) because he will never get a green light to fly.

60-1 states that flying is a privilege not a right.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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Unit: SWR-OK-001

« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2010, 03:48:08 PM »

60-1 states that flying is a privilege not a right.
That pretty much sums everything up.
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Ed Angala, Lt Col, CAP
Oklahoma Wing/DO
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