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Author Topic: Given all the discussion about fuzzies around here...  (Read 7020 times)
lordmonar
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 12:18:35 AM »

My question is why do you get a pass on grooming standards based on religious grounds?

My point being....are we not told that the standards are the standards and they are there for a valid military reason?

We give someone a pass because of religious objections....okay I buy and agree with that.  That we are giving religious waivers is not the point I am making.

My point is that maybe some standards or more or less just arbitrary.  Grooming standards are a case in point.

Normally we say NO beards....expect with medical waiver...and now religious waiver......but why do we say no beards in the first place?

That is my question.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 12:21:25 AM »

Like some others have already posted, I don't buy for a second that the gentleman could achieve an effective seal on a standard gas mask.  Aside form that I've got no problem with the waivers granted to him.  As long as he is OK with playing the canary if the defecation hits the ventilation (admittedly unlikely in his career field), let the man serve.
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raivo
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 12:35:27 AM »

My point is that maybe some standards or more or less just arbitrary.  Grooming standards are a case in point.

Normally we say NO beards....expect with medical waiver...and now religious waiver......but why do we say no beards in the first place?

That is my question.

Historically, I believe it was because clean-shaven men with short hair were less prone to lice.

I don't remember exactly when in history, though obviously it was sometime after the Civil War! :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Stuart
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 01:02:54 AM »

IIRC it was WWI and had to do with the gas issue..  I don't have a problem with the officer, but.. once the slippery slope is begun, it's hard to stop.  Perhaps a pacifist wants to be in the Army for whatever reason.. I feel that if one doesn't feel that they need to follow the rules, they should not apply and request waivers.  When they get in due to waivers, they are always "exceptional" due to their status.  They know it and everyone else knows it.  Everything revolves around it.  Either they get promtions because of it or they don't get it because of it.  It causes continual friction in the real world, especially one where everything is uniform with the exception of the exceptional one..  Political correctness can be problematic..
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Pumbaa
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 01:37:52 AM »

Pacifists can serve, usually as a CO.  They will be put in non combat positions.  many Mennonites serve this way.
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AirAux
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2010, 01:43:47 AM »

True and they are very honorable, however, they will never be put in a combat leadership position and therefore do not fit the "norm" of soldier.  From experience, they don't fit in too well.
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PHall
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2010, 01:54:14 AM »

True and they are very honorable, however, they will never be put in a combat leadership position and therefore do not fit the "norm" of soldier.  From experience, they don't fit in too well.

They fit in just fine in the Medical Units most of them serve in. CO's have also served in Grave Registration units too.
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Cecil DP
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 01:57:22 AM »

True and they are very honorable, however, they will never be put in a combat leadership position and therefore do not fit the "norm" of soldier.  From experience, they don't fit in too well.
Check out Desmond Doss on the CMH website!!
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Michael P. McEleney
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2010, 02:07:29 AM »

I think that pretty well covers the honorable part I mentioned..  Most of the ones I knew were during the Viet Nam era and one could not expect them to be a brother in arms when it came to defending a position..  They did a fine "limited" job in the Army, but were not considered part of the "troops" due to their aversion to fighting and that the ones I knew had no intention of serving longer than their draft period.  Back in the day, there was a difference in people that enlisted and those drafted.  That is just the way it was. 
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2010, 02:38:25 AM »

I was happy to see this article, until I read some of the posts in comments...especially from people claiming to be soldiers with 3+ deployments.

You have your opinions, and they have theirs.  SHould they not have them since they don't match yours?  I would say them being American soldiers would most definitely give them the right to voice their issues, agreeing or not.

His comments were this (paraphrased)

"Will we see him shooting up a base in a few months"

"Will people on his base need to wear body vests"

"Will he go crazy and try to kill people"

All obviously in reference to the Muslim Major who shot up a base a few months ago.

Tell me, besides being an ignorant A, who doesn't know a difference between a Sikh and Muslim, what exactly was his point? Turban+beard = terrorist?
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A.Member
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2010, 03:30:10 AM »

Well this brings up some intresting questions about our military grooming standards.

1) Why do we have grooming standards in the first place?
2) If exceptions are made.....where and when do we draw the line of those exceptions?
3) Respecting religious beleifs is very laudable but are there any beliefs that are incompatiable with military grooming standrds?

These questions can also be expanded into other military standards as well...not just grooming standards.
Obviously, you're already aware of this but I sure hope he (nor any of our soldiers for that matter) never finds himself in a situation that requires the use of his CPOG/NBC mask.  While I'm certainly no expert, I've got to imagine a good seal is a lot tougher to come by with that beard.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2010, 11:03:58 AM »

Mask seal depends on the cut of your beard......if you keep it trimmed to the line the mask would sit on you can usually get a pretty good seal.

Quote
You've just suggested then that all dentists in the Army are not equal to other officers, and are not leaders
  Most military PME sugests that this is true. In the USAF Squadoron Officers School text, it basically states that JAG and Medical officers are not "real" officers because they are not engaged in the proffesion of arms.

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2010, 11:25:16 AM »

That's very interesting.  I recall when I was in the army seeing a doctor, in uniform, with a full beard.

Now, on the CAP side of things, this is very different.  The military requires a waiver to have the beard.  In CAP, those with facial hair do not require a waiver.
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Cecil DP
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2010, 02:29:16 PM »

That's very interesting.  I recall when I was in the army seeing a doctor, in uniform, with a full beard.

Now, on the CAP side of things, this is very different.  The military requires a waiver to have the beard.  In CAP, those with facial hair do not require a waiver.
They also don't wear a military style uniform or even the TPU
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Michael P. McEleney
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2010, 07:41:29 PM »

I don't care what the uniform is worn, it still looks bad.  When you grow your neck hairs into a pony tail and/or a beard, you simply don't look professional.  I see the pony tails on uniform NOAA, USPHS, CAP and other agencies in uniform.  I don't care if they are an agency or department head, it still looks bad and creates mgt, ops, and pr issues wasting a lot of political assets without any return.  I understand beards on US SOFCOM operators as a part of the current war. 

I am not just CAP.  I am elected as head of an agency which among other duties, evaluates agency responders, responses, and activities.  When I see a CAP Lt in white/grays with a ponytail with a beard looking like ZZTop acting as the CAP rep in a state SOC, I just cringe.  Such an appearance leads to major questions about the individuals commitment to public service, and questions about the agency's ability to control its own personnel and ability to actually perform its proper job.

73s
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2010, 07:50:52 PM »

Such an appearance leads to major questions about the individuals commitment to public service , and questions about the agency's ability to control its own personnel  and ability to actually perform its proper job.

In 3 words or less, explain how an individuals hair is a good marker for their commitment to public service. Also draw a graph showing commitment levels from Bald/Shaven to Never-Has-Cut-Hair.

In 3 words, explain how enforcement of triviality establishes the command and control of the organization to the liking of outside groups.

In 3 words, explain how personal appearance affects the ability to actually perform a proper job.


Answers:

It isn't.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most committed
    10             |         10          |        10    |       10     |     10        |        10                 |           10                 |
Bald/Shaven | Some growth | Under 1" | Under 2" | Under 3" | Bums and women|  Never-Has-Cut-Hair

It doesn't.
It doesn't.
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raivo
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2010, 08:03:29 PM »

Most military PME sugests that this is true. In the USAF Squadoron Officers School text, it basically states that JAG and Medical officers are not "real" officers because they are not engaged in the proffesion of arms.

Non-line officers, technically speaking.

Don't know about the Army, but in the AF, their officer training is much shorter and less demanding (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) as a result. (I got to see three Commissioned Officer Training classes graduate before me when I was at OTS. How's THAT for a morale booster? ;))

Really, the military needs doctors/lawyers/chaplains - and there aren't all that many who are willing to sign up for the military. Doesn't make sense to make it overly difficult for the ones who are.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2010, 08:31:57 PM »

USAFaux2004, three words, perception, perception, perception... That is all..
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2010, 08:34:32 PM »

Non-line officers, technically speaking.

I think it has something to do with their Geneva Conventions status as well; I think medics and padres cannot be forced to bear arms, but I don't know about legal eagles.
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2010, 08:37:56 PM »

I do understand self indulgence.  I do understand basic hygiene.  I do understand being that special little ray of sunshine your mother told you could be. I do understand folks in my generation growing that beard for that second and third chin. I do understand agencies with no spine in dealing with arrogance and political correctness in their ranks.  I do understand wasted time and efforts dealing with the public and political reps because of those little rays of sunshine.

Most folks are too polite to tell you when you look squirrelly regardless of the uniform or dress.  The perceptions of people from appearance is critical in certain situations.  Competence must be built up in people caught in ES and Disaster situations.  We don't need to look like we can't dress our selves properly.  Dressing properly doesn't apply to just uniforms, it also applies to those wearing suits and ties.  When I'm at the courthouse, folks expect to see me in a proper suit, white shirt and tie.  It is simply a show of respect.  And when I have to deal with a judge with a beard and pony tail, I start drawing conclusions about his politics, judicial ability, allegiances to the law, and arrogance towards people.  Usually, my experience shows I'm right.  When I'm at CAP, I wear the appropriate uniform for the activity.  It is simply a show of respect.
73s
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