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Author Topic: Given all the discussion about fuzzies around here...  (Read 6904 times)
vmstan
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Unit: NCR-KS-055

Squadron Website
« on: March 24, 2010, 08:11:03 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_sikh_soldier
1st Sikh in decades graduates Army officer school
Quote
SAN ANTONIO The soldiers in standard-issue fatigues and combat boots stood side-by-side repeating their creed: "I am an American soldier. I am a warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army values ...."

Capt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan was no different except that he wore a full beard and black turban, the first Sikh in a generation allowed to complete U.S. Army basic officer training without sacrificing the articles of his faith. He completed the nine-week training Monday after Army officials made an exemption to a policy that has effectively prevented Sikhs from enlisting since 1984.

"I'm feeling very humbled. I'm a soldier," said the 31-year-old dentist, smiling after the ceremony at Fort Sam Houston. "This has been my dream."

Rattan had to get a waiver from the Army to serve without sacrificing the unshorn hair mandated by his faith. An immigrant from India who arrived in New York as a teenager, Rattan said he hopes his military commitment will allow him to give back to his adopted home country and will help diminish prejudice Sikhs sometimes face in the U.S.

More at source
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MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote
I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol.

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,569
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 09:05:11 PM »

I think there's a bit of difference between the Sikh officer and your average CAP "fuzzy".
The choice he has made is much more deep-seated than mine. My choice is mostly a matter of personal comfort; his is based on his religion and culture.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 09:28:39 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
The CyBorg is destroyed
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 09:07:29 PM »

The Canadian military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police have had Sikh personnel for years...and not without tension at what other serving personnel deem "special treatment" (as if they didn't have enough with the French/English thing).

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalCanada2b.asp

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a194/giverdonkey1/CanadianSikhSoldiers.jpg

http://www.nriinternet.com/CANADA/POLICE/Manjit_Singh/manjit.jpg

There were also a handful of Sikhs that served in the RAF in the Second World War:

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/whatson/images/thumbs/pujji.jpg
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 09:08:30 PM »

I think there's a bit of difference between the Sikh officer and your average CAP "fuzzy".
the choice he has made is much more deep-seated than mine. My choice is mostly a matter of personal comfort; his is based on his religion and culture.

Hopefully Capt. Rattan's religion and culture will be respected.
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Fuzzy
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 09:12:32 PM »

Ok I know I just made a wise crack last post but...

Could polo shirts be considered a religious article?  ;)
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C/Capt Semko
lordmonar
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 09:18:29 PM »

Well this brings up some intresting questions about our military grooming standards.

1) Why do we have grooming standards in the first place?
2) If exceptions are made.....where and when do we draw the line of those exceptions?
3) Respecting religious beleifs is very laudable but are there any beliefs that are incompatiable with military grooming standrds?

These questions can also be expanded into other military standards as well...not just grooming standards.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
AirAux
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 09:39:18 PM »

Not to side track the issue, but he isn't your usual soldier.  He completed 3 weeks of officer indoctrination for medical personnel as a dentist and did not complete usual basic training.  He is probably being given special treatment because he is a dentist.  I would like to see him complete the gas chamber with the beard.  This is another case of an officer not being a leader.  He will get the respect of being an officer, but there will be snickers throughout his career..  It would be hard for him to get those under him to take the dress code seriously.  Perhaps my religion requires me to eat a lot and adores my obesity.. Exception?? Not today, but soon.. 
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 10:06:05 PM »

Not to side track the issue, but he isn't your usual soldier.  He completed 3 weeks of officer indoctrination for medical personnel as a dentist and did not complete usual basic training.  He is probably being given special treatment because he is a dentist... This is another case of an officer not being a leader.

You've just suggested then that all dentists in the Army are not equal to other officers, and are not leaders?   I'm sure there would be plenty of Army officers who would disagree with you.

I would like to see him complete the gas chamber with the beard.

He did.  And he created a proper seal.  And the Army was satisfied.  And it was reported right in that article.

This is another case of an officer not being a leader.  He will get the respect of being an officer, but there will be snickers throughout his career..  It would be hard for him to get those under him to take the dress code seriously.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand why you think people should view him as less of a leader, or why you think he's not setting an example.    This captain is following the Army uniform standard to the letter.  He petitioned through the proper channels and received authorization for what he wears.  He is adhering to the Army regulations exactly as the Army has set them out.   Or are you really saying that people will laugh at him behind his back and not respect him as a leader because he's different from societal/organizational accepted norms?  That's a lot different.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:09:27 PM by Pylon » Logged
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Thom
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Louisiana Wing Website
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 10:08:44 PM »

Not to side track the issue, but he isn't your usual soldier.  He completed 3 weeks of officer indoctrination for medical personnel as a dentist and did not complete usual basic training.  He is probably being given special treatment because he is a dentist.  I would like to see him complete the gas chamber with the beard.  This is another case of an officer not being a leader.  He will get the respect of being an officer, but there will be snickers throughout his career..  It would be hard for him to get those under him to take the dress code seriously.  Perhaps my religion requires me to eat a lot and adores my obesity.. Exception?? Not today, but soon..

I'm certain someone else will point out your misunderstanding regarding the chain of command and Officer status in the U.S. Army as it regards Medical professionals.  Suffice to say all Army Doctors don't command line troops, they never will, they know it, the troops know it, and no one (except possibly you...) is confused about it in the least.  They are almost as separate as Chaplains in that regard.

As to your comments about his religious requirements causing issue with others regarding uniform standards, please see the CAP Core Values, particularly Integrity, Excellence, and especially Respect, before commenting further on another's faith while they serve our country.


Thom
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Short Field
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 10:10:53 PM »

He will get the respect of being an officer, but there will be snickers throughout his career.
  Only by immature jerks and then only out of hearing of any officers or NCOs with real leadership ability.
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Wilson #2640
Flying Pig
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 10:12:12 PM »

I would like to see him complete the gas chamber with the beard.

He did.  And he created a proper seal.  And the Army was satisfied.  And it was reported right in that article.

This is another case of an officer not being a leader.  He will get the respect of being an officer, but there will be snickers throughout his career..  It would be hard for him to get those under him to take the dress code seriously.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand why you think people should view him as less of a leader, or why you think he's not setting an example.    This captain is following the Army uniform standard to the letter.  He petitioned through the proper channels and received authorization for what he wears.  He is adhering to the Army regulations exactly as the Army has set them out.   Or are you really saying that people will laugh at him behind his back and not respect him as a leader because he's different from societal/organizational accepted norms?  That's a lot different.

No issue with him being in the military or weaing his head gear.  I work as a Deputy with several Sikh Deputies. However, Im raising the BS flag on the gas mask seal.  8 yrs infantry and 12 yrs LE wearing gas masks, chem suits, SCBA's and everything else to keep you alive, NO WAY IN THE WORLD you can get a seal with a gas mask.  Sorry.  You kids can believe that portion of the article if you want, but I will call out the Bio/Chem NCO any day on that one.  Liar Liar pants on fire.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 10:24:25 PM »

I was happy to see this article, until I read some of the posts in comments...especially from people claiming to be soldiers with 3+ deployments.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 10:35:07 PM »

Also, just an aside, allowing beards on religious grounds isn't new and isn't exclusive to Sikhs or the Army:

[smg id=151]
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Flying Pig
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 10:38:34 PM »

Obviously a Chaplain?  Any idea what religion?
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 10:39:52 PM »

Obviously a Chaplain?  Any idea what religion?

The badge he's wearing indicates Jewish Chaplain.  I was merely pointing out that CPT Rattan was not alone, nor was this type of waiver exclusive to Sikh's or the Army.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,043

« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 10:40:12 PM »

I was happy to see this article, until I read some of the posts in comments...especially from people claiming to be soldiers with 3+ deployments.

You have your opinions, and they have theirs.  SHould they not have them since they don't match yours?  I would say them being American soldiers would most definitely give them the right to voice their issues, agreeing or not.
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raivo
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Posts: 442
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2010, 11:16:18 PM »

You have your opinions, and they have theirs.  SHould they not have them since they don't match yours?  I would say them being American soldiers would most definitely give them the right to voice their issues, agreeing or not.

Depends on the opinion.

Rational opposition to the Army's policy on waivers is fine, bigotry against "towelheads" (which, unfortunately, I saw plenty of in the comments) not so much.
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1Lt, CAP
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"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."
Flying Pig
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2010, 11:20:28 PM »

I will point out my post was relating to genuine objections, not silly comments about being a towelhead or whatever.  However, I do see where military members may have an issue with waivers of any type.  Especially one being so visible.  I know people who are opposed to age waivers, ASVAB waivers, medical waivers.  And one opinion is what is to stop a christian or a mormon, or any other religion from petitioning to be able to have beards or wear a particular hat? 
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raivo
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 11:28:57 PM »

I will point out my post was relating to genuine objections, not silly comments about being a towelhead or whatever.  However, I do see where military members may have an issue with waivers of any type.  Especially one being so visible.  I know people who are opposed to age waivers, ASVAB waivers, medical waivers.  And one opinion is what is to stop a christian or a mormon, or any other religion from petitioning to be able to have beards or wear a particular hat?

Ah, OK. Carry on. :)

I'm not quite sure what to think. Obviously, I'm happy that he's getting the chance to serve, and that the Army will benefit from his skills.

... but on the flip side, yes, I can see how it could open the floodgates for other religions to claim exemptions as well.

Then again, are there really that many people who want to join the military, who would require such exemptions?
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1Lt, CAP
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"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."
ol'fido
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 12:05:33 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NetzahYehudafield.jpg

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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
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