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Poll
Question: Good idea?
Yes   -6 (14.3%)
No   -29 (69%)
Not Sure Yet...   -7 (16.7%)
Total Members Voted: 42

Author Topic: "SLS On-line (for Chaplains)"  (Read 8569 times)
Capt Rivera
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Posts: 639
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Grand Forks Composite Squadron
« on: August 31, 2009, 11:24:53 PM »

From:http://capmembers.com/cap_university/latest_pd_news.cfm

Quote
Important Professional Development News!
SLS On-line (for Chaplains)
(31 Aug 09)

On-line SLS
: Now available to chaplains. Chaplains may register through this link or go to the On-line Courses & Exams page in CAP University.  On-line SLS will soon be open to all eligible candidates who would not otherwise be able to attend in residence.  Please note that the primary method of completing SLS is in residence and the on-line option is primarily for those who can not attend in residence.

PD Staff

Let the debate begin... I left the poll answer open for change as I can see people wanting to change the selected answer as debate continues...
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//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org
dwb
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Posts: 1,349

« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 11:30:02 PM »

I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

The real value in SLS and other in-residence courses is the discussion and networking between the attendees (students and staff).

Yes, you can understand all of the material by doing an online course, but you can't spend a weekend with your peers, with other people in your Wing that are trying to make this whole CAP thing work.

An online module on leadership is not a suitable replacement for sitting at lunch with some students you just met four hours earlier, and engaging in a spirited discussion about how to handle issues that CAP officers face.

And Chaplains do NOT get special dispensation here, I'm not sure why it's only open for them right now.  If anything, Chaplains need to spend as much time as possible with their fellow senior members, since their "Chaplainy" work is often done in isolation, or only with other Chaplains.

[/rant]
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Maj Daniel Sauerwein
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Civil War History
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 11:37:18 PM »

What about using technology to have it be online, but with the capabilities to network with other members, like a video conference? CAP could partner with a provider of video conferencing software and equipment and provide each squadron the ability to attend and interact without leaving their home area, which is especially important in northern states where bad weather can come up quickly and severely impact travel. I like the online concept for everyone, but do see the value in learning from others. There has to be a nice middle ground that provides the flexibility of distance-based education with the benefits of a traditional classroom setting.
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DANIEL SAUERWEIN, Maj, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
brasda91
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 11:54:14 PM »

I understand the option for them to do SLS online.  I don't agree with it though. My Dep Cmndr for Seniors has agreed to do SLS on Friday night and Saturday.  We are getting ready to start another class that will run a few weeks on Tuesday nights.  Don't see any reason why any unit can't conduct SLS over several weeks on their meeting night.  Contradictions?
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011
RiverAux
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 12:03:39 AM »

Why in the world should Chaplains get an online option not available to anyone else?  They're no more likely to not be near an in-person course than anyone else. 

I just can't believe they're doing this after making such a big fuss about now having to follow the same PD requirements as everyone else. 

If this was the old SLS, then an online course would be acceptable, but the new one just isn't right for online work. 
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bosshawk
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 12:33:49 AM »

First of all, I have no issue with the suggestion that the course be put online for everyone.

Secondly, have you considered that most Chaplains have other, more important, committments on Saturdays and Sundays, when CAP tends to give classes like SLS?  It seems to me that holding services for ones congregations is a bit more important than going to a CAP school.

I am probably a bit more sensitive to this issue than most: I lived in a clergymans family for the first 21 years of my life.
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Paul M. Reed
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Capt Rivera
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Grand Forks Composite Squadron
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 12:35:55 AM »

I understand the option for them to do SLS online.  I don't agree with it though. My Dep Cmndr for Seniors has agreed to do SLS on Friday night and Saturday.  We are getting ready to start another class that will run a few weeks on Tuesday nights.  Don't see any reason why any unit can't conduct SLS over several weeks on their meeting night.  Contradictions?

Hi Maj Dillworth,

SLS is a Wing Course and should not be a squadron level class...
(Disregarding this online thing of course...)

For your course:

- Do you have Wing Approval?
- Do you have attendees from outside your squadron?

If the answer to either of those questions is "no" its not being done right.
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Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org
Capt Rivera
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Grand Forks Composite Squadron
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 12:53:16 AM »


Secondly, have you considered that most Chaplains have other, more important, committments on Saturdays and Sundays, when CAP tends to give classes like SLS?  It seems to me that holding services for ones congregations is a bit more important than going to a CAP school.

I am probably a bit more sensitive to this issue than most: I lived in a clergymans family for the first 21 years of my life.

Things like that are important based on the person your talking to at a given moment...

I'm not saying it is or is not important to me, however, it should not be given any additional consideration then any other job/calling/etc.

All types of people do their work on weekends... whatever that work happens to be... others work 40, 60 etc hours a business week to have weekends with family or for CAP...

Everything is a choice... CAP should not discriminate for or against any subset... If we allow this special consideration for Chaplains, why not anything else? I'm sure we can each list many different jobs/callings/commitments/etc that keep us from ever being available on a weekend....

The fact is... Availability is a choice in America...

Quote
all eligible candidates who would not otherwise be able to attend in residence

If the standard is: "I have a commitment on weekends..." who can't find justification to meet this requirement?

I would think that the following would not have to go in residence to another PD course by default under the above standard:
- Chaplains
- Any military member (Active, Guard & Reserve)
- Anyone who normally works any job on at least 1 of the 2 day weekend days...
- Any doctor, nurse,etc
- any police officer, firefighter, emergency dispatcher etc
- Anyone who is on call for any job over the weekend

Where would it stop?
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//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org
Short Field
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 01:07:58 AM »

Some people take their Sunday duties very serioiusly.  We have offered SLS and CLC as a Friday PM and Saturday Class a few times to allow them to attend.  The classes covered the same material and with the same amount of time as the Sat/Sun classes.   

Yes, all the classes were approved by wing.
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Wilson #2640
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 02:05:34 AM »

I like the idea of an online SLS course. You would take the course on line and then attend a class for 4 hours that you could do all the networking you wanted. The course should be open to everyone not just chaplins.
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IceNine
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 03:07:14 AM »

I actually like the idea of a friday/sat vs sat sunday course.

I may try that next year.
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brasda91
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2009, 03:57:33 AM »


Hi Maj Dillworth,

SLS is a Wing Course and should not be a squadron level class...
(Disregarding this online thing of course...)

For your course:

- Do you have Wing Approval?
- Do you have attendees from outside your squadron?

If the answer to either of those questions is "no" its not being done right.

There is nothing stopping a squadron from conducting an SLS course.  We don't ask for it to be funded.  National recommends that at least one SLS be conducted within the Wing or Region.  Sometimes that one time doesn't mesh with a members schedule, especially Chaplains.  My Chaplains have a committment to their church on Sundays, so it's hard for them to get away.

- I've not seen any requirement to have Wing approval for a squadron to conduct an SLS course.  If you can provide regulatory compliance that we have Wing approval, I would appreciate it.

- We always invite the squadrons close to us to participate.  That could be Southern IL, SE Missouri, NE Arkansas or NW Tennessee.  The last class we conducted was attended by a Senior Member from Atlanta.  That is a few hours from us.  He didn't want to have to wait several months for his Wing to offer SLS.  I don't know of any regulation that requires us to invite members from outside of our squadron.  We do it simply based on being good stewards of the organization.
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
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Camas
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2009, 04:21:25 AM »

SLS is a Wing Course and should not be a squadron level class...
- Do you have Wing Approval?
- Do you have attendees from outside your squadron?
If the answer to either of those questions is "no" its not being done right.
I gotta agree with RiveraJ - re: CAPR50-17 Para 4-6b and 4-6d which states in part - "Each CAP wing shall conduct one SLS - - - " and "CAP wing commanders appoint a director for each SLS".

There is nothing stopping a squadron from conducting an SLS course.
I've not seen any requirement to have Wing approval for a squadron to conduct an SLS course. 
Not according to CAPR50-17 para 4-6.
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brasda91
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 04:38:39 AM »

SLS is a Wing Course and should not be a squadron level class...
- Do you have Wing Approval?
- Do you have attendees from outside your squadron?
If the answer to either of those questions is "no" its not being done right.
I gotta agree with RiveraJ - re: CAPR50-17 Para 4-6b and 4-6d which states in part - "Each CAP wing shall conduct one SLS - - - " and "CAP wing commanders appoint a director for each SLS".

There is nothing stopping a squadron from conducting an SLS course.
I've not seen any requirement to have Wing approval for a squadron to conduct an SLS course. 
Not according to CAPR50-17 para 4-6.

Actually it states Wing should conduct one course annually.  Once again, there is no prohabition in para 4-6 against a squadron conducting an SLS.  If there is, please cite it verbatim.

I'm the unit commander, so I appoint the SLS Director for the unit funded SLS.

The Wing Commander will appoint Director for the Wing funded SLS course.

If only Wing or Region can conduct a SLS, why would National approve us to have the class?  This is not the first time we've done this.

Also, you'll note that under para c, you will find NOTE: Some wings may hold more than one SLS per year; however, only one SLS is funded.  Notice that it doesn't say Wing HQ, it states wings, as in some states may hold more than one SLS.
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
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Camas
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 04:47:34 AM »

I'm the unit commander, so I appoint the SLS Director for the unit funded SLS.
The Wing Commander will appoint Director for the Wing funded SLS course.
If only Wing or Region can conduct a SLS, why would National approve us to have the class?  This is not the first time we've done this.
I've had units in my wing conduct SLS courses at the unit level as well - no argument there - but they've always gone through wing first for approval. I'm just curious - does your wing DPD give approval in KYWG or are you given automatic approval to do this all on your own? Not picking a fight - just getting thoughts and ideas.
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brasda91
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 04:57:45 AM »

I'm the unit commander, so I appoint the SLS Director for the unit funded SLS.
The Wing Commander will appoint Director for the Wing funded SLS course.
If only Wing or Region can conduct a SLS, why would National approve us to have the class?  This is not the first time we've done this.
I've had units in my wing conduct SLS courses at the unit level as well - no argument there - but they've always gone through wing first for approval. I'm just curious - does your wing DPD give approval in KYWG or are you given automatic approval to do this all on your own? Not picking a fight - just getting thoughts and ideas.

Honestly, I haven't even considered asking Wing for permission.  We're not asking for it to be Wing funded, so to my thinking, it doesn't need to be run through Wing.  I may be wrong for doing it this way.  The Form 46 doesn't require Wing approval.  If there is a reg that states all training needs Wing approval, I would like to see it.  I'm sure I've forgotten a reg or two over the years.  :)  I'll check my Wing policy letters to see if there's anything there.
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 05:02:11 AM »

The Form 46 doesn't require Wing approval. 
Hmm - you're right. Could we have a contradiction with CAPR 50-17? Anyway, it's been an interesting exchange of thoughts and ideas.Too bad we've never met. I was in Henderson KY just this past June.
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brasda91
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 05:27:26 AM »

The Form 46 doesn't require Wing approval. 
Hmm - you're right. Could we have a contradiction with CAPR 50-17? Anyway, it's been an interesting exchange of thoughts and ideas.Too bad we've never met. I was in Henderson KY just this past June.

 :D  There's plenty of contradictions in the reg's and ICL's.

I too have enjoyed the questions.  I appreciate them.  Makes me double check the reg before I post.  By the way, I checked my Wing policy letters and there is nothing that I can find regarding needing Wing approval for holding a SLS course.  But, because of your question/s...I'm going to ask my Wing PD Officer about this.  Thanks.

What brought you to Henderson?  That's only a hour and half, give or take a few minutes from Paducah.  Feel free to add me to your buddy list.  If you come to Henderson or anywhere close to Paducah and you need something or want to visit, give me a call.
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 05:47:54 AM »

Actually it states Wing should conduct one course annually.  Once again, there is no prohabition in para 4-6 against a squadron conducting an SLS.  If there is, please cite it verbatim.
I'm the unit commander, so I appoint the SLS Director for the unit funded SLS.
The Wing Commander will appoint Director for the Wing funded SLS course.

CAPR 50-17 4d.: Planning. CAP wing commanders appoint a director for each SLS.

The Reg does not say the Wing Commander will appoint the Director for the Wing funded SLS course but that the Wg/CC will appoint a director for each SLS.  You are assuming an authority you don't have.

CAPR 50-17 4e. Reporting. The SLS course director must forward the CAPF 11 and course critiques through the wing commander or their designee (designee cannot be the course director) for signature within 7 days of course completion. Subsequently, the endorsed CAPF 11 and course critiques should arrive at NHQ CAP/PD not later than 14 days after course completion. A copy of the signed CAPF 11 will also be sent to the region DCS/PD. Failure to expedite the CAPF 11 could have a detrimental effect on promotions or other personnel actions.

THis seems very clear that the Fm 11 must be signed by the Wg/CC or his designee.

If only Wing or Region can conduct a SLS, why would National approve us to have the class?  This is not the first time we've done this.

National "approved you" to conduct the SLS?  It looks like National isn't checking the signatures and doesn't really care as long as it takes place.  But that doesn't make it correct.

I am not aware of the Wing ever funding one of our SLSs or CLCs.  Appointment of the course directors was normally by email to the unit conducting the course - if that.  I know some have been verbal.
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brasda91
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 10:23:28 AM »

If anyone has anything more to comment on regarding a unit conducted SLS or any course, please PM me.  I will discuss it with you further.

Back on topic, I think there needs to be some sort of classroom attendance for the Chaplains.  They need an avenue in which to ask questions and have feedback.  But there also needs to be some planning in the course to help better accomidate them.
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Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
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