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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Future of Ground Teams
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etodd
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2019, 02:15:07 AM »



Just because it's not happening in your zip code, doesn't mean it's not happening in others.

Yes.  Wings are going to need to be given more autonomy in the future, to develop what works in their locale.  One size doesn't fit all anymore.


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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2019, 02:31:57 AM »

Yes.  Wings are going to need to be given more autonomy in the future, to develop what works in their locale.  One size doesn't fit all anymore.

Can you elaborate?
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etodd
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2019, 02:38:29 AM »

Yes.  Wings are going to need to be given more autonomy in the future, to develop what works in their locale.  One size doesn't fit all anymore.

Can you elaborate?

In general terms what was mentioned on page one.  Some Wings do a LOT of SAR actual missions. So sure, they should be training for this constantly.

Some Wings virtually never get called for SAR, locals always handle it, but may stay very busy doing photos for FEMA and other types of missions.

The Wing should be what is needed by its customers ... not what the Wing would "like to do".
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2019, 02:39:48 AM »

Yes.  Wings are going to need to be given more autonomy in the future, to develop what works in their locale.  One size doesn't fit all anymore.

Can you elaborate?

In general terms what was mentioned on page one.  Some Wings do a LOT of SAR actual missions. So sure, they should be training for this constantly.

Some Wings virtually never get called for SAR, locals always handle it, but may stay very busy doing photos for FEMA and other types of missions.

The Wing should be what is needed by its customers ... not what the Wing would "like to do".

How is that different today?
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etodd
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2019, 02:42:25 AM »

Yes.  Wings are going to need to be given more autonomy in the future, to develop what works in their locale.  One size doesn't fit all anymore.

Can you elaborate?

In general terms what was mentioned on page one.  Some Wings do a LOT of SAR actual missions. So sure, they should be training for this constantly.

Some Wings virtually never get called for SAR, locals always handle it, but may stay very busy doing photos for FEMA and other types of missions.

The Wing should be what is needed by its customers ... not what the Wing would "like to do".

How is that different today?

Not sure what you mean. I guess its always been the case.  As someone on FB said earlier:  "Having a wilderness team doesn’t make much sense in a wing that is mostly large metropolitan areas." 
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2019, 03:04:26 AM »

Not sure what you mean. I guess its always been the case.  As someone on FB said earlier:  "Having a wilderness team doesn’t make much sense in a wing that is mostly large metropolitan areas."

I'm going to assume that was not regarding CAP as CAP doesn't have "wilderness teams", except in
mall ninja dreams.

My point is that wings have pretty much carte blanche today in regards to ES operations, including
supplementing the regulations, equipment lists, and training if they can show it's necessary.

The issue is that on the mean they aren't putting together those relationships, and don't have the personnel
to execute them if they did.

CAP doesn't exisit on the >scale< necessary to be anything but a blip on it's best day.

For perspective...

The largest Wing, CAWG, has ~3600 people on the books, and I would hazard at least 1/3rd of
them are no-show / no factor, and of those probaby half? aren't involved in ES.
It received $80k from the state in 2013, so let's say it has a total budget of $100K.

That's in a state that is ~164k2 miles in area.

The LA County Sheriff's office has ~20 thousand employees and an annual budget of $4 billion dollars,
that just LA County.

The LA County Fire Department has ~4600 employees and a $1.15 Billion dollar annual budget.

That's just LA County.

That general math is true in pretty much all the urban centers in this country, which, btw, also make
up the majority of the CAP membership, who by and large are not involved in ES in any way, or in such a peripheral
manner as to be a non-factor. There are some wings that have less members then Groups in other states
despite having area just as large.

Anyone with some reps on a GT badge or wings and a few laps on an RSR has a few "cool stories about a time
everything came together and we had an awesome mission", some of us have even been "deployed" during
real no-poop situations, but by and large CAP's involvement in the ES community is so small
that the "life-changing missions" that we recall are what the average fire department or real SAR agency
refer to as "Tuesday".

They train every day, deploy 24x7, and are legally bond in most cases to answer the phone. What is the expectation
that CAP can reasonably be anything more then career exploration and "those nice kids down the block" in the face of
that sort of scale and life and death expectations of performance by the professionals they seek to emulate and assist?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 03:12:07 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


NIN
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2019, 03:18:06 AM »

Contrary to what Bob says, there are people who are trained and able to take on the PODS capability in specific areas, where CAP's been MOU'd, etc.

https://photos.cap.gov/National-HQ/Operations/Hurricane-Florence/North-Carolina-Wing/

Those pallets of water and food aren't moving themselves.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2019, 03:22:23 AM »

Contrary to what Bob says, there are people who are trained and able to take on the PODS capability in specific areas, where CAP's been MOU'd, etc.

https://photos.cap.gov/National-HQ/Operations/Hurricane-Florence/North-Carolina-Wing/

Those pallets of water and food aren't moving themselves.

As we've discussed any number of times, anecdotal, circumstantial success is not a plan or a strategy.

The trouble is that CAP touts anecdotal and circumstantial successes as being somehow the result of
a strategic plan.

If manning a PODS site is CAP's answer to ES relevance, they might as well just pack it up,
because you don't need the uniforms for that, you just need to show up and say "how can I help?".
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Fubar
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 07:29:33 AM »

Contrary to what Bob says, there are people who are trained and able to take on the PODS capability in specific areas, where CAP's been MOU'd, etc.

It's not part of any communicated national strategy however. One of the main issues we have as an organization is the number of half-implemented "ideas" that ebb and flow with the strong personalities that present them.

The vast overwhelming majority of SAR missions conducted by CAP these days involve two or three guys on their computers. In the rare cases that another CAP asset is used, it's nearly always a plane. It is very unusual for a CAP ground team to be allowed let alone requested to participate in a search after the phone guys do their thing.

But that doesn't mean SAR has to be dead within the wings. It's going to take some strong personalities that are willing to push multiple boulders up steep hills. It means receiving no support from the national level of the organization. It's going to mean assembling committed team members who sneer at the idea of pencil-whipping qualifications. It means committing as much time to training as your average cadet program officer does for cadets (which typically eliminates a cadet's ability to be on the team). It also means passing up missions that everyone but we are willing to do because ORM (rock climbing, swift water, extreme temperatures, etc).

I've seen it done. I also watched it fade as the team's interest in the training tempo waned. I can't imagine that's unique to our volunteer organization, but it can't be ignored.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2019, 11:44:38 AM »

CAP ground team training standards are essentially the same as NASAR except for a few tasks that CAP isn't allowed to perform anyway.  They are not the limiting factor in most cases. 

Manpower is the biggest problem since as already stated most GTMs are cadets in most areas and cadets are an even less reliable resource than other CAP members (through no fault of the cadets, its just the reality of school and working with minors that rely on their parents to get around). 

However, I have long thought that ground SAR is the biggest area of potential CAP mission growth.  Yes, a few states and city/counties have super ground SAR capability, but I would argue that isn't the case in the vast majority of the United States.  I don't know if this still holds up, but CAP in the relatively recent past had more qualified ground team members than NASAR had members and one could argue CAP is the biggest single GSAR organization in the US.  I'd suspect that most CAP units are more than 50-100 miles from the nearest GSAR organization of any kind. 

That being said, a while ago I put some serious thought and planning into the idea of starting a senior squadron that would entirely focus on ground SAR.  I eventually decided against it because based on my experience 1) I didn't think there was much chance of getting any funding for doing training (even though GT training is only a fraction as expensive as even the smallest air-SAR SAREX) and 2) while I thought I could find enough adults to form a credible ground team I didn't think that I could find enough adults willing to put up with all the other CAP requirements just to do a type of mission that CAP as a whole doesn't really want to be involved in. 
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 04:27:26 PM »

Kind of appropriate you used a picture of a product spokesman - that's no longer being used.
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Fubar
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2019, 05:38:45 AM »

However, I have long thought that ground SAR is the biggest area of potential CAP mission growth.  Yes, a few states and city/counties have super ground SAR capability, but I would argue that isn't the case in the vast majority of the United States.

I think that's tied to the frequency in which ground SAR is needed. In the areas in which SAR missions occur on nearly a weekly basis, there are well funded and trained teams available 24/7. CAP can't hold their reflective vest let alone compete with them for a seat at the table. In areas with less SAR missions there is likely more of an opportunity for CAP to participate, because fewer opportunities means fewer people willing to serve on search teams. Of course, CAP will have the same problem.

There are probably areas around the country where there are just enough SAR missions where it's worth it be trained and ready to roll, but not enough of them that there's a bunch of competition from other teams that have fewer restrictions and far less overhead than CAP.
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hfriday
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2019, 03:32:49 PM »

One thing we have found is that in our state - anecdotal, I know, but anecdotal evidence in aggregate can show trends - state troopers will be the lead agency in the rescue element of SAR. They have all comms on UHF. Ours is all VHF. So, notwithstanding FEMA’s lofty assertion of standardizing everything across agencies...if we intend CAP aircraft to communicate directly with a ground team, we need at least a liaison officer attached.

As far as I can tell, the multiplicity of local issues like this across the US necessitates different approaches everywhere. So a national policy “evolving” the GTM quals could abolish assets still needed in some wings. I assume the need for regulations broad enough to allow one size to fit all is a primary reason we don’t have more prescriptive policy for specialties that seem outdated in some areas.
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sardak
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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2019, 09:14:30 PM »

For the past two days I've been in the State SAR Coordinators Council meeting with the federal SAR agencies at FEMA HQ in DC.  CAP NHQ gave a presentation on cell phone forensics.

I'll repeat the message an AFRCC commander gave a number of years ago: 50 states, 50 ways of doing SAR.

Mike
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Stonewall
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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2019, 10:16:07 PM »

For the past two days I've been in the State SAR Coordinators Council meeting with the federal SAR agencies at FEMA HQ in DC.  CAP NHQ gave a presentation on cell phone forensics.

I'll repeat the message an AFRCC commander gave a number of years ago: 50 states, 50 ways of doing SAR.

Mike

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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Future of Ground Teams
 


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