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NIN
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 08:08:29 PM »

Mil-radians are more accurate as well. Should CAP require artillery compasses for all GTLs and report azimuths in mils?

Gimme a second, I can't remember what pocket I stuck my M-2 in.

:)

BTW, for the MapNerdy among us (MapNerdy is like HamSexy, but with rulers and protractors and a map, of course), here's some light reading and tools, including GeoTrans both for PC/Mac/Linux and Android:

http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/update/index.php?action=home

and a very old document thats still pretty relevant:  http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/coordsys/mmr201.pdf

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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wmackirdy
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 08:12:00 PM »

Eclipse,

Thanks for the NESA links. There are some good links there!
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Maj Wayne MacKirdy
Chaplain, Major, US Army (retired)
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wmackirdy
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 08:14:50 PM »

Now, could someone please explain the LatLong decimal system to me? Help?? I am guessing it is parts of one degree, but not sure.
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Maj Wayne MacKirdy
Chaplain, Major, US Army (retired)
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NIN
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2018, 08:21:23 PM »

Now, could someone please explain the LatLong decimal system to me? Help?? I am guessing it is parts of one degree, but not sure.

Sure. You're used to "degrees, minutes, seconds" (where minutes and seconds are < 60).

So like 45° 58' 12" N or 72° 12' 59" W

Decimal degrees converts that out to a decimal number, such as "45.97° N" or "72.21639°"

Some aviation GPS units prefer to work in decimal degrees. I know my hand-held Garmin has both kinds: county & western.

ETA: Handy quick converter https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/degrees-minutes-seconds-to-degrees.html

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Jester
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 08:22:29 PM »

I was recently told that USNG is pretty much the standard for SAR outside of CAP. Pretty much the exact same thing as MGRS.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2018, 08:23:51 PM »

Could always use this gem....

http://usahec.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16635coll24/id/4

The good ol' don't get lost in the woods, stupid....a comedy classic, like the 21-76, or "how to get killed in the woods quick" manual....
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Strup
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Blanding
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2018, 11:54:42 PM »

For what it's worth, the G1000 and smaller Garmin aviation GPS units are capable of displaying lat/long, MGRS, and UTM.

I'd happily switch the format to whatever is in use to coordinate with a ground team - not sure what the big deal there is.
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jeders
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2018, 12:03:37 AM »

For what it's worth, the G1000 and smaller Garmin aviation GPS units are capable of displaying lat/long, MGRS, and UTM.

I'd happily switch the format to whatever is in use to coordinate with a ground team - not sure what the big deal there is.

Not all GPS units can do that and, more importantly, not all aircrews are aware or capable of doing that.
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husker
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2018, 12:44:01 AM »

I've been fortunate to work and train with members from all every Wing in CAP (and some foreign countries) in my almost 20 years at NESA.  What I have learned is that many different coordinate systems are the "standard" in different regions of the country, and oftentimes vary from state to state (and oftentimes, vary in different parts of large states). 

As such, I believe that CAP members should be conversant in both systems, and fluent in whatever system is used most widely in their area.  CAP should also build relationships with the other players in their area, and learn to work in whatever coordinate system is most widely used in their AOR. 

As Ellipse and LTSHiker pointed out, UTM was in the curriculum from 1999 to 2004.  It was (unfortunately) taken out in the last revision, but believe me, it will find its way back.  Too many areas of the country and too many customers (or potential customers) use UTM. 

As an aside, we used to task on polar projections as well.   :)

The issue of different systems of Lat/Long is quite a pet peeve of mine.  We just can't seem to come to a standard of D M S, D.DDDDD, or D MM.MMM.  Even if we don't have a standard, operations would go much more smoothly if we would simply use proper radio protocol when relaying coordinates.  I can't tell you how many times over the years I've heard "location is three two, one nine, two three by eight six, thirty two, forty five."  Does this mean 32 19' 23" 86 32' 45", or 32 19.23' 86 32.450'?  To a ground team, that makes a big difference.

I've been doing ES training since my cadet days, and I'm an expert at field expedient tactical radio communications (read that as = bad protocol).  Oftentimes, I'll sit in my while my Basic schools cover ICUT, just to remind me on what I should be doing.  If we all endeavor to use proper radio protocol when relaying coordinates, we could greatly cut down on the confusion - "my location is three two degrees one niner decimal two three minutes north,  eight six degrees, three two decimal four five minutes West."
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
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sardak
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2018, 01:38:21 AM »

US National Grid (USNG) was adopted in 2001 by the Federal Geographic Data Committee (FGDC), made up of many US Government departments. The USNG is functionally equivalent to the Military Grid Reference System (MGRS) and both are based on the Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) system. USNG was pretty much ignored until after Katrina in 2005. The AARs led to its becoming widely used.

Since 2010 all US Geological Survey 7.5 minute topos have the 1000 meter UTM grid squares printed on them with the USNG info in the margin. Lat/lon is still printed just as tic marks every 2.5 minutes.

The Land SAR supplement to the US National SAR Manual (federal National SAR Committee document) states that USNG is the primary point reference system for Land SAR responders, and lat/lon is primary for Aeronautical SAR responders. It notes that “Aeronautical SAR responders working with Land SAR responders have the primary responsibility of coordinating SAR using USNG. However both groups must become familiar with both georeference systems.”[/i]

In 2015 FEMA published directive 092-5 which states “The purpose of this Directive is to require use of the USNG as FEMA’s standard geographic reference system across all preparedness, mitigation, response, and recovery activities as well as land-based and land-air operations and to provide instruction for effective implementation.”

NASAR SAR Tech III and II require demonstration of plotting coordinates in UTM. SAR Tech I requires following a nav course given in UTM coordinates.

ASTM standard F2209 for land search team member requires plotting coordinates in lat/lon, UTM and USNG.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction CJCSI 3900.01D requires MGRS for ground units and ground combat operations. USNG may be used for homeland security and homeland defense.

UTM was a required task (O-0208) for GTL and UDF from 1999 to 2004, when it was dropped.

Format for lat/lon?
From the Land SAR addendum: “Latitude and longitude should be in one standard format: DD MM.mm. [that’s degrees, minutes, decimal minutes] If required, use up to 2 digits to the right of the decimal.”

And the Coast Guard addendum: “Lat/Long in degrees, minutes and tenths of minutes.” Both of the addendums note that latitude is written before longitude.

From CJCSI 3900.01D “Latitude and longitude will be expressed in degrees, minutes and decimal minutes (DDMM.mmmm).” It requires four digits right of the decimal.

SARSAT coordinates are in DD MM.m, (one digit to the right of the decimal) for LEOSAR, MEOSAR, and Confirmed Position (formerly know as Merge or Composite). Encoded positions (from GPS) are DD MM.mm (two digits right of the decimal). However the two digits won’t be from .00 to .99, the system limits them to increments of 4 seconds, so .00, .07, .13,…., .80, .87, .93.

The FAA on the other hand, has no consistent policy on lat/lon format, nor does the CAP National Radar Analysis Team.

FWIW, in our state the unwritten accepted practices are  DD MM.mm for the fixed wing and helo crews and UTM for ground SAR.  Every GPS I've used has UTM in addition to lat/lon, and most made in the last 10 years also have MGRS and/or USNG (which are interchangeable).  Plenty of GPS and coordinate conversion apps for phones and tablets.

As a former AFRCC commander said, "Fifty states, fifty ways of doing SAR" (unfortunately).

Mike
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NIN
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« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2018, 02:16:19 AM »

Hey thanks Mike! That was literally one of the best things I've read on CAP Talk in a while
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etodd
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« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2018, 04:02:08 AM »

The Cessna Pilots Guide for G1000. On the MFD, The System Setup Page is the fourth AUX Page and provides access (via a list of menu options) to manage Map Datum and Position Formats.  So that you can change it to match the system in use by Mission Base and Ground Teams:

Page 7-116 here:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/G1000_CessnaNavIII_PilotsGuide_545EDB6488D6F.pdf
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GroundHawg
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« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2018, 03:34:32 PM »

Hey thanks Mike! That was literally one of the best things I've read on CAP Talk in a while

I will second that.

Great post that puts a lot into perspective. I guess as GT, we need to have the ability to work in multiple formats simultaneously.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2018, 03:50:03 PM »

as GT, we need to have the ability to work in multiple formats simultaneously.

Simultaneously?  No.

Assuming for the moment anyone in CAP is using UTM, which I'm not buying, a GT is not going to be
expected to operate in multiple environments at the same time.

Whatever the format (hint it's Lat / Long) will be established in the ICP and all teams and crews will use the same.
I can't imagine the "fun" it would be for GTs to start reporting in UTM when everyone else is on Lat / Long.

UTM is not in the CAP lexicon.  It might be "better! stronger! faster!", but there is no requirement from a
doctrine or curriculum standpiint that UTM ever even comes up in conversation, and if it does, it's because of the requirements of a
local relationship, or an HAA  that decides to extend training regardless of its utility to CAP, which makes it irrelevant to the "CAP standard".
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2018, 03:56:54 PM »

Come on, guys.

MGRS!

I MGRS quite well (shhh, my GPS is always set to MGRS...). However, you drop a set of MGRS coords on your average "customer," and they're going to give you this...

I recall we used to get lat/long from AFRCC on SARSAT & 406mhz beacon GPS hits. Those of us who spoke MGRS/UTM had to scratch our heads and fire up our lat/long to UTM/MGRS converter (GeoTrans or similar). But not many local outfits worked in UT/MGRS, so back the other way we'd go.


I love the ease and feasibility of MGRS. I'm pretty good with it myself. And it's a great teaching tool.

It's just not necessarily adaptable to the "outside world," and understandably because it doesn't interface with multiple organizations (both military and civilian) and requires conversions. For ground trekking, it's awesome.
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Jester
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2018, 04:41:06 PM »

If you use USNG, MGRS is directly applicable.

In my group we’ve started using USNG on the ground. Still need to get the aircrews on the same page, I have to figure out if they have the capability to use both.
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NIN
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« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2018, 06:37:36 PM »

And really, MGRS & UTM are directly applicable to each other, with some prefix / zone changes.  That link I posted earlier offered up some tips for "converting" the markings on the map.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Larry Mangum
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2018, 07:52:44 PM »

"Be expert with Map & Compass" is highly recommended for teaching people how to use a map and compass. You can get it on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Map-Compass-Bjorn-Kjellstrom/dp/0470407654
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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etodd
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« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2018, 08:03:12 PM »

From FEMA, one of CAPs largest customers:

Quote
At FEMA, we're encouraging the adoption of the USNG for several reasons:

It's simple to implement and easy to use.
It provides interoperability, or a "common language", by making available a grid reference system that is seamless across jurisdictional boundaries.
It provides scalability. Whether you have access to sophisticated geospatial software or are simply using a paper map, USNG can be used to pinpoint locations and make better operational decisions.
GPS devices complement USNG.  Most GPS receivers can translate GPS coordinates into the USNG grid.
As an example of USNG's use, FEMA's Urban Search and Rescue Response teams use it for positioning during search and rescue operations.  It is just one component of a geo-referencing matrix that is used for planning, coordination and information sharing purposes.

More ...

https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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CAPLTC
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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 12:24:47 AM »

Who in the civilian world?
At the Federal civilian level, we have been using USNG for a while.
We can transliterate anything from A to B in Esri apps.
But the preferred input/output is USNG.

Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.

YEP!
Exactly:
From FEMA, one of CAPs largest customers:
https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: ES: Map Reading
 


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