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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Pilots Say Boeing Didn't Tell Them About a Safety Feature Tied to a Deadly Crash
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Author Topic: Pilots Say Boeing Didn't Tell Them About a Safety Feature Tied to a Deadly Crash  (Read 2132 times)
OldGuy
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 03:28:19 AM »

"Boeing rushed out a bulletin last week to inform pilots all over the world about the new flight control system and exactly what to do to shut it down if it goes haywire. But the Lion Air crew didnít have that information and may have been confused by a key handling difference that the system could have caused during the flight."

Yikes. And you can quote me on that.

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 05:33:26 PM »

Paul writes that "Todd Insler, chairman of the United Airlines ALPA unit, questioned why ALPA publicly pushed Boeing to provide more information on the auto trim system, insisting that pilots are already well trained to handle any uncommanded trim events. ... In an interview with the Seattle Times, Insler compared automated background systems on airliners to watching television. ďI donít need to know how it works,Ē he said."

Leave it to ALPA...

I just got into an argument yesterday over whether or not conditions needs to be listed in the AOM or GOM as to when a maintenance write-up is required for exceeding airspeed limitations (specifically Vmo) during flight.

The argument was "This is common sense. You can't put everything into a manual for every situation."
"So when a pilot doesn't write it up, it's literally because they're not required to. You can't hold them to it."
"Then they shouldn't be operating an airplane if they don't have that common sense."
"Why have manuals at all?"

Not everything needs to be in a manual, but any time there is going to be a cause-and-effect, it should be in there, especially if it involves aircraft performance, automated systems, or maintenance issues.

To say "pilots don't need to know how their aircraft works" is asinine.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 07:18:15 PM »


To say "pilots don't need to know how their aircraft works" is asinine.


+1

Especially if a mod will affect performance under excursions from a pre-set "normal" envelope, or could respond in a counter intuitive manner to a sensor or other system failure. 
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2018, 02:47:21 PM »

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/11/20/lion-air-boeing-737-investigation-places-flight-controls-focus/?marketo_id=30777932&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWkdVelkyWTJaV1kzWlRBMCIsInQiOiJnUkI4SjVRZkpMcVpLQnRhSFZxWXp6cjZ4aTFuNGdsdGF4QlRFT094cjdEUWRMM202eHlnXC9TWUI2bExTY21lN1RJaFVhM3FsR3E2OGh5STdhbjc0UzhBUWkybnppS0s0NE5FZ0Niam9PYUJNWTNoVVJyek05c1hEMFZlaGpaVXAifQ%3D%3D

Avionics International reports ďan update on the crash investigation from Capt. Nurcahyo Utomo of Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) ...[said]..the FDR review also concluded that the aircraft airspeed indicator was malfunctioning on four consecutive flights prior to the crash. Utomo also indicated the pilots should have recognized the malfunction when it occurred on flight JT610."

Wouldn't intermittant failure of the ASI be a known, pre-existing airwortiness fail?
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PHall
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2018, 07:13:10 PM »

The crew on the previous flight had written it up and maintenance had "fixed" it and signed it off.
Intermittent write ups are a real pain to duplicate so I'm not really surprised they "thought" they had fixed it.
But the new crew should have been watching for this problem like a hawk and that's why you have the back up indicator.
It is totally independent from the "normal" airspeed indicators. About the only thing they share is the pitot-static system.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2018, 04:39:31 PM »

I can't speak for Lion's entire organizational structure and what programs they're approved to conduct...

I would guess that the repeat write-ups really don't play into the legal maintenance airworthiness of the aircraft. This is more of a chronic tracking/trending issue under a CASS program to try to identify the systemic issue and correct it.

What they likely did was MEL it as much as possible, but when the write-up continued, they would do an Ops Check (which ran satisfactory because they couldn't duplicate it), and marked that off in the logbook. Thus, airworthy.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Pilots Say Boeing Didn't Tell Them About a Safety Feature Tied to a Deadly Crash
 


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