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Author Topic: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?  (Read 14206 times)
Hawk200
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« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2018, 10:17:36 AM »

A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.

Coat only, or a new Corporate Uniform design? I didn't care for HWSRN's coat design, but I had to admit it was actually uniform.

Right now, three people could wear the blazer combo, be completely within the manual, but with three different color variations of "blue" and "gray."
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Hawk200
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« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2018, 10:20:22 AM »

Personally, I'd like to see the big pocket badges for technician, senior, and master ratings go away in favor of a smaller badge over the nametape, like the GT and aircrew badges.

As a veteran myself, I'd prefer to keep the ABU, if only because I find it comfortable and don't like looking during a SAR mission like I got lost looking for the 19th hole. The fact that I have so darn much MONEY tied up in my two ABUs is certainly another reason to want to keep them in circulation.

Basically, eliminate the pocket badges(which is different in placement for females), and replace them with designs more akin to Air Force occupational badges?
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Hawk200
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« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2018, 10:21:57 AM »

The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.
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hfriday
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« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2018, 11:57:06 AM »

Quote
Basically, eliminate the pocket badges(which is different in placement for females), and replace them with designs more akin to Air Force occupational badges?

Yeah, that's the general idea. I know the prevailing wind here seems to be against going more USAF-style, but if we are going to have USAF-style uniforms, we should be more aligned with them in general, not less.

Probably the biggest issue with CAP uniforms is there's just so much stuff on them - I've heard criticism that we look like "NASCAR drivers," not the USAF Auxiliary, and it's not an illegitimate complaint.
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Color Guard Rifleman
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« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2018, 03:32:51 PM »

It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
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arajca
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« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2018, 03:37:45 PM »

It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
Which uniform?
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Chappie
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« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2018, 03:39:06 PM »

A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.

Coat only, or a new Corporate Uniform design? I didn't care for HWSRN's coat design, but I had to admit it was actually uniform.

Right now, three people could wear the blazer combo, be completely within the manual, but with three different color variations of "blue" and "gray."

The different color variations of the “gray” slacks have been an object of discussion for as long as I can remember.   Other organizations have similar issues.  I serve as a Docent aboard the USS Midway Museum.   For all the volunteers the basic uniform is the approved shirt of the department that you work in and khaki trousers.  One can only imagine the color variations and the type of material seen in this uniform requirement regarding trousers. 
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2018, 04:21:59 PM »

Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.
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GaryVC
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« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2018, 04:28:43 PM »

The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.

Actually I am just not a fan of the encased plastic grade. Cloth (lots of different types) worked fine when I was on active duty.

I forgot one other complaint as I was thinking about senior uniforms. I don't care for either of the cadet officer shoulder boards. I think (and have since they were introduced) that the shoulder boards for the service dress are too gaudy. I also believe that the grade insignia on the black shoulder boards is too small. At a minimum I would be in favor of rotating the cadet grade insignia 90 degrees (the way it used to be worn on the service dress) and using full-sized insignia.
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arajca
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« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 04:44:13 PM »

Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.

Incident staff is far more than just the 4 you list. Somewhere on here is my full proposal covering all the ICP positions, with different levels based on what level on the IC org charts the position is.
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PHall
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« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2018, 05:20:27 PM »

The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.

Actually I am just not a fan of the encased plastic grade. Cloth (lots of different types) worked fine when I was on active duty.

I forgot one other complaint as I was thinking about senior uniforms. I don't care for either of the cadet officer shoulder boards. I think (and have since they were introduced) that the shoulder boards for the service dress are too gaudy. I also believe that the grade insignia on the black shoulder boards is too small. At a minimum I would be in favor of rotating the cadet grade insignia 90 degrees (the way it used to be worn on the service dress) and using full-sized insignia.

Black shoulder boards?????  Are you referring to the cloth blue epaulet sleeves?  The only place I've seen black shoulder boards is AFROTC.
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2018, 07:26:08 PM »

Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.

Incident staff is far more than just the 4 you list. Somewhere on here is my full proposal covering all the ICP positions, with different levels based on what level on the IC org charts the position is.

That was just a starting point.  Probably the basic badge could be defined simply as "qualified as a branch director" and the senior could be "as a section chief" though I would keep OSC as the defining qualification for the master badge, since the next step from there is IC.  I haven't seen what you worked up but I would probably agree with most if not all of it.
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GaryVC
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« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2018, 08:39:12 PM »


Black shoulder boards?????  Are you referring to the cloth blue epaulet sleeves?  The only place I've seen black shoulder boards is AFROTC.

Your right, they are dark blue. My point still stands, however.
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Color Guard Rifleman
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« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2018, 08:58:56 PM »

It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
Which uniform?

For the BDUs
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
2019 MIWG Encampment Squadron 2 First Sergeant
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HandsomeWalt_USMC
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Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2018, 09:01:52 PM »

I'll bite. I had an idea recently based on a new trinket I was given at work. All of us who have served in the military were given an American flag citation bar (like an enamel ribbon) with our service and veteran on it. For instance, mine has USMC Veteran.
I think some sort of CAP ribbon for members who have served in the military should be available, one that they can wear on corporate uniforms or in lieu of wearing military ribbons on USAF style uniforms. My idea would be for a new ribbon design, not service specific. Call it the CAP Military Service Award or something like that. It would greatly reduce the amount of clutter for many of us (with my CAP and mil ribbons together I have 19 as a 2ndLt) and provide a little something to recognize the service of our members who wear corporate uniforms. Thoughts?
You mentioned that you had something with "USMC" on it. Are you looking for just one ribbon, but maybe a device that indicates branch perhaps? There are ribbons for various things that have a specific designation "bar" (for lack of a better term.) Maybe attachments that have the service, or is that beyond what you're thinking?

You could do attachments, but I only had a ribbon in mind. I read through the old thread about that idea and someone did suggest attachments.
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shuman14
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« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2018, 05:24:44 AM »

My suggestion would to merge all of the Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system.

The Ribbon/Medal Drape of the Membership Award would be used as the primary Ribbon of my proposed Professional Development and Education Award (PDEA):


Level 1 - PDEA Ribbon only, no Device. Mini-Medal - Current Membership Award Medallion.

Level 2 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Leadership Award Medallion Becomes the Level 2 Medallion.

Crossfield Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Crossfield Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.
 
Yeager Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Silver Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Yeager Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.

[If both the Crossfield and Yeager Awards have been earned, the PDEA Ribbon will have Numeral "2" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. The Mini-Medal will use the Yeager Award Medallion and a numeral "2" Device and a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster will be worn on the Medal Drape.]

Level 3 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "3" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Loening Award Medallion.

Level 4 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "4" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Garber Award Medallion.

Level 5 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "5" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Wilson Award Medallion.

Bronze, Silver and Gold Stars for Squadron Officer School, Air Command & Staff College or Air War College respectively will also be added to the PDEA Ribbon and Medal Drape.

A maximum of four devices may be worn on a PDEA Ribbon so if a CAP member was to complete all of the above, the PDEA Ribbon would have a numeral "5" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and one Star for the highest USAF School completed. The Mini-Medal would use the Wilson Award Medallion with a Silver Oak leaf Cluster, a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and a Star for the highest USAF School completed on the Medal Drape.

Prior Service USAF Officers who join CAP can wear the appropriate level Star for their highest USAF School completed on the PDEA Ribbon. So it would be possible to wear a PDEA Ribbon for Levels 1 thru 3 with a Star on it, unlike the current Wilson/Garber Awards limitations.

The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

The current Certificates for the Professional Development levels and the Aerospace Education Awards will continued to be used until current stocks are exhausted. New Certificates will be ordered to reflect the new terminology and single Ribbon/Medal Drape color scheme.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.



« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 05:37:23 AM by shuman14 » Report to moderator   Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
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Hawk200
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Posts: 4,632

« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2018, 09:56:46 AM »

My suggestion would to merge all of the Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system.

The Ribbon/Medal Drape of the Membership Award would be used as the primary Ribbon of my proposed Professional Development and Education Award (PDEA):


Level 1 - PDEA Ribbon only, no Device. Mini-Medal - Current Membership Award Medallion.

Level 2 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Leadership Award Medallion Becomes the Level 2 Medallion.

Crossfield Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Crossfield Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.
 
Yeager Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Silver Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Yeager Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.

[If both the Crossfield and Yeager Awards have been earned, the PDEA Ribbon will have Numeral "2" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. The Mini-Medal will use the Yeager Award Medallion and a numeral "2" Device and a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster will be worn on the Medal Drape.]

Level 3 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "3" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Loening Award Medallion.

Level 4 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "4" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Garber Award Medallion.

Level 5 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "5" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Wilson Award Medallion.

Bronze, Silver and Gold Stars for Squadron Officer School, Air Command & Staff College or Air War College respectively will also be added to the PDEA Ribbon and Medal Drape.

A maximum of four devices may be worn on a PDEA Ribbon so if a CAP member was to complete all of the above, the PDEA Ribbon would have a numeral "5" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and one Star for the highest USAF School completed. The Mini-Medal would use the Wilson Award Medallion with a Silver Oak leaf Cluster, a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and a Star for the highest USAF School completed on the Medal Drape.

Prior Service USAF Officers who join CAP can wear the appropriate level Star for their highest USAF School completed on the PDEA Ribbon. So it would be possible to wear a PDEA Ribbon for Levels 1 thru 3 with a Star on it, unlike the current Wilson/Garber Awards limitations.

The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

The current Certificates for the Professional Development levels and the Aerospace Education Awards will continued to be used until current stocks are exhausted. New Certificates will be ordered to reflect the new terminology and single Ribbon/Medal Drape color scheme.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.

Very comprehensive indeed. For the purposes of a short list item, what do we call this? "Merge of Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system?"

Trying to keep the list more of a bullet type format.
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supertigerCH
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« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2018, 06:43:03 PM »

A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).


« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 06:47:14 PM by supertigerCH » Report to moderator   Logged
shuman14
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« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2018, 06:54:39 PM »

Very comprehensive indeed. For the purposes of a short list item, what do we call this? "Merge of Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system?"

Trying to keep the list more of a bullet type format.

That works fine for me.
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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Eclipse
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« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2018, 07:03:49 PM »

A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).



Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
 


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