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Author Topic: CAP and Why We are Civilian  (Read 9614 times)
francisderosa16
Forum Regular

Posts: 126
« on: July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PM »
Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].  Keeping CAP Civilian, [which military is non-civilian], allows a "form" of troops to deploy on US soil, considering CAP is not part of the military.

This is my theory, if I'm wrong, tell me, or feel free to add on.

HAPPY FOURTH!!!

V/R
Cadet Airman
DeRosa
 M.
Francis
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etodd
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 09:16:19 PM »
Quote
de·ploy

verb
move (troops or equipment) into position for military action.

So that would be a negative to your idea. CAP will not "deploy" for military action of any kind.

We search for missing folks, sometimes with planes and ground teams. More often than not it seems we do it in front of computer screens with cell phone forensics.

We take purdy pictures for FEMA.

Etc., etc.

If you want to "deploy" .... there are recruiters who would love to talk with you.  :)
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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CAP9907
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 09:20:31 PM »
It certainly does not allow a ‘form of troops’ or anything remotely connected for any ‘deployment’ in the CONUS or anywhere else for that matter.. 

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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 09:32:19 PM »
CAP is a civilian service because that's how it was chartered.
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Pace
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 10:48:07 PM »
Just gonna throw these sound bites out there guys:


Be nice.
Teaching moment.
Lead by example.
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Lt Col, CAP
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OldGuy
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 01:05:11 AM »
We started civilian, we are civilian we are likely always to be civilian. You are overthinking this.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 03:51:23 AM »
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PM
Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].  Keeping CAP Civilian, [which military is non-civilian], allows a "form" of troops to deploy on US soil, considering CAP is not part of the military.

This is my theory, if I'm wrong, tell me, or feel free to add on.

HAPPY FOURTH!!!

V/R
Cadet Airman
DeRosa
 M.
Francis
First.......we are civilian because we are civilian...that is not members of the military.   Second.....who says the Military can't deploy on U.S. Soil?   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pace
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 04:03:23 AM »
I'm going to try this again.

Be nice.
Teaching moment.
Lead by example.
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Lt Col, CAP
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Brad
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 04:54:16 AM »
We're civilian because we always have been, and that's what the primary nature of our missions have been.

Quote
The Civil Air Patrol was conceived in the late 1930s by aviation advocate Gill Robb Wilson, who foresaw general aviation's potential to supplement America's military operations. With the help of New York Mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, in his capacity as then-Director of the Office of Civilian Defense, CAP was created with Administrative Order 9, signed by LaGuardia on 1 December 1941 and published 8 December 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Air_Patrol#History

The military accomplishes its own objectives perfectly fine, but sometimes due to a variety of things such as cost, manpower, etc., some of those lesser objectives can be more readily accomplished through the use of "force multipliers" such as CAP to assist the military in training operations and non-combative operations such as SAR.
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Brad Lee
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 05:53:27 AM »
If you think the military can't deploy on US soil, please kindly read up on the DSCA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_of_Civil_authorities

See also FEMA IS-75:Military Resources in Emergency Management
https://training.fema.gov/is/courseoverview.aspx?code=is-75
See also in there the notes on military auxiliaries.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 06:02:14 AM by Holding Pattern » Report to moderator   Logged
TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 02:10:37 PM »
Making CAP a military force would reduce the size of the corps. The military employs numerous processes for the recruiting and acquisition of personnel that CAP just cannot afford to implement without a major loss of its members.

CAP is a cost effective alternative to combat air and ground power being used for domestic incidents. If it were a military force, that cost effectiveness would greatly diminish.

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francisderosa16
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Posts: 126
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 02:36:00 PM »
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2018, 03:51:23 AM
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PM
Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].  Keeping CAP Civilian, [which military is non-civilian], allows a "form" of troops to deploy on US soil, considering CAP is not part of the military.

This is my theory, if I'm wrong, tell me, or feel free to add on.

HAPPY FOURTH!!!

V/R
Cadet Airman
DeRosa
 M.
Francis
First.......we are civilian because we are civilian...that is not members of the military.   Second.....who says the Military can't deploy on U.S. Soil?   

The "Posse Comitatus act" prevents military troops deploying on US soil.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 02:52:22 PM »
Did you read the actual act? I suggest you read it before you continue citing it. There are provisions in the Posse Comitatus Act which will allow the military to support, and in fact has been used by a President despite the act. To wit, President Dwight D. Eisenhower sent troops to Little Rock, Arkansas in support of school desegregation despite the Posse Comitatus Act.

Also look at the Enforcement Acts.


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lordmonar
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 02, 2018, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2018, 03:51:23 AM
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PM
Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].  Keeping CAP Civilian, [which military is non-civilian], allows a "form" of troops to deploy on US soil, considering CAP is not part of the military.

This is my theory, if I'm wrong, tell me, or feel free to add on.

HAPPY FOURTH!!!

V/R
Cadet Airman
DeRosa
 M.
Francis
First.......we are civilian because we are civilian...that is not members of the military.   Second.....who says the Military can't deploy on U.S. Soil?   

The "Posse Comitatus act" prevents military troops deploying on US soil.
No.....Posse Comitatus prevents Federal Military Troops to be used to enforce policy with in the united states.   Does not prevent them from being deployed or to be used in other capacities.
And in regards to CAP and being civilians to circumvent that......Posse comitatus does apply to CAP.   We hacked this one out many many many many many (ad nauseam) here on CAPTALK.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 03:08:30 PM »
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2018, 02:58:27 PM
Posse comitatus does apply to CAP. 

Maybe, no, does it?

NHQ generally holds that it does, until it's convenient to argue that it doesn't, and then it doesn't, at
least in not in regards to CAP acting as a Corporate entity.
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etodd
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 03:59:20 PM »
Isn't simply wearing a uniform that closely resembles the AF enough for some folks? Do they really dream of being "deployed" so they can see some "action"?  Why can't everyone simply understand that, uniforms or not, we are simply a group of civilian volunteers?

Has it always been this way, or has the recent advertising campaigns of "Total Force" just confused some? Maybe the top brass at the AF should weigh in and remind us of our civilian status.

(Yes, I thought I would be the first to bring up uniforms as a way to sidetrack the thread. ;) )
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 04:25:02 PM »
It has always been this way, people get themselves wrapped around the axle about PC and
CAP's status in general, and in this case, as Pace pointed out, we're talking about a new cadet, so
it's possible the message received during recruiting, or even during meetings isn't "optimal".
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abdsp51
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 04:29:10 PM »
Posse Commitatus prevents the use of federal troops to emforce laws.  This came about after the end of the Civil War.   It doesn't apply to the Coast Guard since they are considered LEOs.

The military can be deployed on US soil and be used to enforce laws under the "Absolute Martial Law".  And I believe that the only branh of the military Posse Commitatus doesn't/didn't apply was the USMC. 

Now since CAP doesn't fall under the DoD spectrum per say I don't believe that PC would apply though I'm sure Col Lee would be able to provide more insight into the legalese.
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PHall
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 04:34:31 PM »
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 02, 2018, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2018, 03:51:23 AM
Quote from: francisderosa16 on July 01, 2018, 09:04:15 PM
Hello,

I have the theory of why CAP is Civilian. It could be because the Military can't deploy on US soil, [except: National and Air National Guard].  Keeping CAP Civilian, [which military is non-civilian], allows a "form" of troops to deploy on US soil, considering CAP is not part of the military.

This is my theory, if I'm wrong, tell me, or feel free to add on.

HAPPY FOURTH!!!

V/R
Cadet Airman
DeRosa
 M.
Francis
First.......we are civilian because we are civilian...that is not members of the military.   Second.....who says the Military can't deploy on U.S. Soil?   

The "Posse Comitatus act" prevents military troops deploying on US soil.


Posse Comitatus only applies to troops under FEDERAL control. National Guard troops under State Control are not subject to it.
And it only governs if the military can be used for law enforcement purposes. Like preventing looting and enforcing mandatory evacuations and such.
CAP operating on an Air Force Assigned Mission are probably (legal opinions differ) subject to it, but CAP operating on a "Corporate" mission for a state or local government is probably not subject to it.
There has been some legal back and forth about this over the years.
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Blanding
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 06:52:54 PM »
Quote from: abdsp51 on July 02, 2018, 04:29:10 PM
Now since CAP doesn't fall under the DoD spectrum per say I don't believe that PC would apply though I'm sure Col Lee would be able to provide more insight into the legalese.

There's really no "per se" in that sentence.

Quote from: CAP Constitution and Bylaws
Civil Air Patrol is a private, nonprofit corporation chartered under special Act of Congress, 36 USC §§
40301 - 40307, which sets forth the purposes, rights, and duties of the Civil Air Patrol.

The objects and purposes of Civil Air Patrol shall be:
a. To provide an organization to encourage and aid American citizens in the contribution of their
efforts, services, and resources in the development of aviation and in the maintenance of aerospace
supremacy.
b. To provide an organization to encourage and develop, by example, the voluntary contribution of
private citizens to the public welfare.
c. To provide aviation and aerospace education and training, especially to its senior and cadet
members.
d. To encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities.
e. To provide an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local
and national emergencies.
f. To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions.

Source: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_Constitution_Bylaws_4BC09E935985F.pdf

Everyone say it together: CAP is a nonprofit corporation that sometimes provides assistance to other organizations.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: CAP and Why We are Civilian
 


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