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GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 563

« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2017, 08:43:58 AM »

If you will also note, you do not need to have a Bachelors to come in as a Captain, only the RN license. There are tons of "shake and bake" 1 and 2 year associates degree nursing programs whose grads are RN's.
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spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 285

« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2017, 04:55:26 PM »

If you will also note, you do not need to have a Bachelors to come in as a Captain, only the RN license. There are tons of "shake and bake" 1 and 2 year associates degree nursing programs whose grads are RN's.

Very true plus all the hospital nursing schools that do not offer degrees but graduate their students as RN's.  They have been around for decades without any affiliation to a college or degree program.  Some of the best nurses I know have gone to these schools.
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
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Posts: 653

« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2017, 07:19:27 PM »

If you will also note, you do not need to have a Bachelors to come in as a Captain, only the RN license. There are tons of "shake and bake" 1 and 2 year associates degree nursing programs whose grads are RN's.

Very true plus all the hospital nursing schools that do not offer degrees but graduate their students as RN's.  They have been around for decades without any affiliation to a college or degree program.  Some of the best nurses I know have gone to these schools.
This is a new one for me. Is there a website for one of these schools?
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 285

« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2017, 08:27:43 PM »

Not sure but many of my instructors were graduates of them.  Some include Salem Hospital School of Nursing,  Brigham and Women's Hospital School of Nursing, Brockton Hospital School of Nursing, Mercy Hospital School of Nursing, West Penn Hospital School of Nursing, Graham Hospital School of Nursing, are a few of the diploma schools of nursing and are usually 2 or 3 years in length.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2017, 08:35:47 PM »

http://www.riohondo.edu/health-science-and-nursing/30-unit-option/

"The 30 unit option (Non-Graduate) program is a one-year program for the applicant with a valid California Vocational Nurse license, who wish to quickly meet the requirements to take the NCLEX-RN examination as a non-graduate. LVNs who select this option may not change to the LVN-ADN Program once accepted.

The program is designed to prepare students for employment as a Registered Nurse, providing direct care to patients. The student should be aware that they may not change their status as a 30-unit option RN with the Board of Registered Nursing at any time after licensure. Individuals who become licensed as Registered Nurses using this option may not be eligible for licensure in states other than California. The program is approved by the California Board of Registered Nursing. The 30 unit option student will take the NCLEX-RN exam as a non-graduate. This status will not restrict their practice within California. They may have difficulty applying to a college/university for an advanced degree. See the Dean of Health Science and Nursing for further details."
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
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Posts: 653

« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2017, 08:44:11 PM »

Interesting. These are equivalent to an ADN degree without actually receiving an academic degree.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2017, 08:56:47 PM »

Interesting. These are equivalent to an ADN degree without actually receiving an academic degree.

Yep - leave it to Cali, as always, but it's understandable with the shortage of Nurses that's projected to be as high as 800k+ by 2020,
and as much as an additional 1MM+ for emergency and acute care nurses (accord to the BHP).
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
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spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 285

« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2017, 09:00:30 PM »

Several of my high school classmates went to Salem Hospital a 3 year program where they lived onsite all through their training.  They got their diploma and took their RN exams.  No requirement to having a LPN before starting.  Also a few classmates opted to go to Salem State College getting the same RN post exams but with a degree attached.  Both programs turned out excellent nurses but the college was more focused on academics where as the hospital was on patient care and practical application.  The degree nurses usually ended up with more administrative positions and the diploma grads were more hands on getting in the nitty gritty care that is needed.
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spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 285

« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2017, 09:13:02 PM »

Interesting. These are equivalent to an ADN degree without actually receiving an academic degree.

Yep - leave it to Cali, as always, but it's understandable with the shortage of Nurses that's projected to be as high as 800k+ by 2020,
and as much as an additional 1MM+ for emergency and acute care nurses (accord to the BHP).

Funny they have been shouting about a nursing shortage since I went to school and graduated in 1976. Also these diploma schools have been around since the early 1900s.  Granted many are now gone or have been swallowed by nearby colleges due to financial issues and the ideology that every career required a degree.  Lol, when my brother-in-law graduated from his local community college, I found it funny that he actually got an associates degree in automotive body work.  I thought that was something learned as an apprentice or at a tech school. 
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2017, 09:34:06 PM »

Funny they have been shouting about a nursing shortage since I went to school and graduated in 1976. Also these diploma schools have been around since the early 1900s.  Granted many are now gone or have been swallowed by nearby colleges due to financial issues and the ideology that every career required a degree.  Lol, when my brother-in-law graduated from his local community college, I found it funny that he actually got an associates degree in automotive body work.  I thought that was something learned as an apprentice or at a tech school.

That's what you get at a lot of tech schools because an AA apparently holds more sway at Jiffy Lube then just a certificate.

Apprenticeships still exist, especially in the major trades, but in most cases the lines are long, political,
and they still expect you to go to school at night.
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beachdoc
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: MER-NC-022

« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2017, 12:50:27 PM »



You are confused about a few things.

First relates to your apparent concerns regarding medical liability.  Simple provision of medical care is not malpractice.  Treatment of a patient is not malpractice.  Medical malpractice is any act or omission by a physician during treatment of a patient that deviates from accepted norms of practice in the medical community and causes an injury to the patient.

All but a few physicians have medical liability insurance.  Those that don't are obligated to self insure.  They are foolish, IMO.

Being sued in a malpractice case is not grounds for loss of license for either doctors nor nurses.  That is a common worry for nurses, but I have never heard of it occurring in the nearly 50 years I have been hanging out with nurses.

The next issue is duty to render aid.  I am under no legal duty to stop at an accident on the roadway, nor assist a fellow diner in a restaurant who chokes on a bite of meat.  If I choose to do so, and I have, I have a duty to that person to provide medical care to a common standard of practice using what is available to me.

Should a fellow CAP member be injured or have an allergic reaction to a bee sting, for example, I believe a duty to act exists as I have a relationship with that member and would take whatever measures required given the resources at hand to render immediate care. 

That is different than doing routine medical care; providing care to all comers through a "sick call"; providing care to a member at a meeting for a preexisting, or new for that matter, medical condition; or performing aviation medical examinations for pilots at a meeting or other official activity.  Those activities are clearly banned.

The primary reason there is a ban on provision of medical services through the CAP is liability.  The organization would be required to credential individual providers to insure they are capable of providing safe medical care.  In the past, in the 60's when I initially joined CAP, Pennsylvania Wing had a "field hospital", likely equipped with scrounged Public Health Service Disaster Hospitals.  That was then and this is now.
http://captalk.net/index.php?action=post;topic=22331.0;num_replies=29
As far as the comments regarding an HSO offering safety advice and counseling the commander regarding medical matters, I will remind the writer eclipse that HSO's exist at Squadron and Wing level to promote health and safety officially as members of the commander's staff.

New guidance will be soon available from National thanks to the appointment of a staff Health Services Officer.  What changes and opportunities that will bring are yet to be revealed.  My wing HSO is quite impressed following a telephone chat with the newly designated NHQ HSO.
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Major Jeffery S Anderson, M.D., CAP
MAJ, MC, FS, USAR (ret)
Squadron Safety Officer/Medical Officer
MER-NC-022
North Carolina Wing
ASMEL Instrument Airplane
Former FAA Senior AME
spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 285

« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2017, 04:45:09 PM »



You are confused about a few things.

First relates to your apparent concerns regarding medical liability.  Simple provision of medical care is not malpractice.  Treatment of a patient is not malpractice.  Medical malpractice is any act or omission by a physician during treatment of a patient that deviates from accepted norms of practice in the medical community and causes an injury to the patient.

All but a few physicians have medical liability insurance.  Those that don't are obligated to self insure.  They are foolish, IMO.

Being sued in a malpractice case is not grounds for loss of license for either doctors nor nurses.  That is a common worry for nurses, but I have never heard of it occurring in the nearly 50 years I have been hanging out with nurses.

The next issue is duty to render aid.  I am under no legal duty to stop at an accident on the roadway, nor assist a fellow diner in a restaurant who chokes on a bite of meat.  If I choose to do so, and I have, I have a duty to that person to provide medical care to a common standard of practice using what is available to me.

Should a fellow CAP member be injured or have an allergic reaction to a bee sting, for example, I believe a duty to act exists as I have a relationship with that member and would take whatever measures required given the resources at hand to render immediate care. 

That is different than doing routine medical care; providing care to all comers through a "sick call"; providing care to a member at a meeting for a preexisting, or new for that matter, medical condition; or performing aviation medical examinations for pilots at a meeting or other official activity.  Those activities are clearly banned.

The primary reason there is a ban on provision of medical services through the CAP is liability.  The organization would be required to credential individual providers to insure they are capable of providing safe medical care.  In the past, in the 60's when I initially joined CAP, Pennsylvania Wing had a "field hospital", likely equipped with scrounged Public Health Service Disaster Hospitals.  That was then and this is now.
http://captalk.net/index.php?action=post;topic=22331.0;num_replies=29
As far as the comments regarding an HSO offering safety advice and counseling the commander regarding medical matters, I will remind the writer eclipse that HSO's exist at Squadron and Wing level to promote health and safety officially as members of the commander's staff.

New guidance will be soon available from National thanks to the appointment of a staff Health Services Officer.  What changes and opportunities that will bring are yet to be revealed.  My wing HSO is quite impressed following a telephone chat with the newly designated NHQ HSO.

I'm sorry, but I am far from confused.  I have been a duly licensed LPN since 1976.  I have been around the barn so to speak a few times.  My personal liability insurance is not of the caliber of an MD.  If I in the duty of CAP or my employer go beyond what corporate policies state, I am SCREWED and yes I can potentially lose my license.  You are reflecting your view of this issue from a MD standpoint not a lowly nurse.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »

As far as the comments regarding an HSO offering safety advice and counseling the commander regarding medical matters, I will remind the writer eclipse that HSO's exist at Squadron and Wing level to promote health and safety officially as members of the commander's staff.

Thank you for the reminder, however the point was missed.

HSOs, regardless of the rating, can't "advise the CC" on any matters beyond the types of things that any other reasonable
adult with relevent experience could, which is why the existence of the Health Services Directorate, is a mission-less unicorn.
Matters regarding prostates, heart ailments, vitamins, or other click-bait nonsense that thousands of members have to
endure politely each year during "briefings" are not what members join for, and are wholly inappropriate for CAP meetings or
newsletters, any more then prolonged lectures on the use of De-icing boots are for the lower 48 (BTDT).

There are no duties, no specialty track, nor higher expectations, which warrant advanced grade, ticket-punching PD, or a special staff position,
and further, NHQ states explicitly that if you decide to John Wayne a situation (which in some states you will have no choice but to do, once aware),
you're on your own. (And you wouldn't' even be there on your horse absent a CAP ES rating, which has a complete doctrine and is focused
on self / buddy care / stabilization until professional EMS arrives.)

My advice to health professionals, LEOs, and even fire people has always been to keep themselves out of that line of fire
by not engaging in CAP activities that put them at risk.  They rarely listen because of the nature of their disability (namely
"service before self", "citizenship", an "innate inability to watch people suffer", something most CAP members deal with in various levels).

New guidance will be soon available from National thanks to the appointment of a staff Health Services Officer.  What changes and opportunities that will bring are yet to be revealed.  My wing HSO is quite impressed following a telephone chat with the newly designated NHQ HSO.

You must be new to CAP.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:57:22 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,105

« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2017, 12:09:44 PM »

HSOs, regardless of the rating, can't "advise the CC" on any matters beyond the types of things that any other reasonable
adult with relevent experience could,

Cite, please.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2017, 12:14:08 PM »

HSOs, regardless of the rating, can't "advise the CC" on any matters beyond the types of things that any other reasonable
adult with relevent experience could,

Cite, please.

I'd ask the same of you to indicate what you think are appropriate.  Anything beyond what is in the CP, ES, or SE manuals
which are pretty much focused on hydration and fatigue, are inappropriate, if for no other reason then they are irrelevant to CAP.

Or should we see about getting Dr. Oz to join and push health supplements on the back page of the volunteer?
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,105

« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2017, 12:58:11 PM »

HSOs, regardless of the rating, can't "advise the CC" on any matters beyond the types of things that any other reasonable
adult with relevent experience could,

Cite, please.

I'd ask the same of you to indicate what you think are appropriate. [. . .]

So, you have absolutely nothing to support your assertion?  I kinda thought so, I just wanted to be sure I hadn't missed anything.

In that case you might want to consider correcting your unsupported statement quoted above.


(Bob, it's OK to make mistakes.  We all do.  I know I certainly do.  But then good leaders try to correct them.)


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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,833

« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2017, 01:31:00 PM »

So, you have absolutely nothing to support your assertion?  I kinda thought so, I just wanted to be sure I hadn't missed anything.

Sorry Ned, that's not how arguments work.  I know exactly what is appropriate to CAP medical issues, and have literally
said so in this thread. 

If you believe that assertion is incorrect, cite the CAP document which indicates what else is supposed to be included,
and the level which requires a medical professional, vs. an experiences member / parent to be able to discuss that same
information.

CAP has, over the years, published any number of documents, indexes, and regs in regards to hydration, heat indexes, cold
safety, and crew rest.  That's the lane, and doesn't need a unit HSO to read the slide.

Cite anything else which would require an MD, Rn, LPN, or even an EMT.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2017, 03:20:04 PM »

So, you have absolutely nothing to support your assertion?  I kinda thought so, I just wanted to be sure I hadn't missed anything.

Sorry Ned, that's not how arguments work.  I know exactly what is appropriate to CAP medical issues, and have literally
said so in this thread. 

If you believe that assertion is incorrect, cite the CAP document which indicates what else is supposed to be included,
and the level which requires a medical professional, vs. an experiences member / parent to be able to discuss that same
information.

CAP has, over the years, published any number of documents, indexes, and regs in regards to hydration, heat indexes, cold
safety, and crew rest.  That's the lane, and doesn't need a unit HSO to read the slide.

Cite anything else which would require an MD, Rn, LPN, or even an EMT.


Bob, Ned helped write the current Health Services reg, so I bet he knows what it says and what the intent is too.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,105

« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2017, 04:35:26 PM »

Sorry Ned, that's not how arguments work.

Really?  I'm pretty sure I know how arguments work.  We even studied that stuff in school.  Seriously, we had classes on "argument."  I even teach that stuff to argument professionals.

In a normal argument (reasons and facts given to persuade another), when someone makes an assertion of fact, typically they can asked to support their assertion with some authority.

Because if their specific assertion of fact is false, that suggests that perhaps their entire premise, positions, and arguments are likely to be . . . . (wait for it) . . . false.


Here, you were in the midst of arguing to others your thesis that the HSO program is a complete waste of time and effort, and indeed detrimental to the organization when you made the rather breathtaking assertion that

Quote from: Bob Williams
HSOs, regardless of the rating, can't "advise the CC" on any matters beyond the types of things that any other reasonable
adult with relevent experience could.

It seemed at odds with my experience (and if you were honest, I expect yours as well), if nothing else because as a frequent encampment and NCSA commander I routinely rely on the advice of an HSO in reviewing the various F160s that are submitted. 

As in, "hey, Doc, this kid says he/she has Osgood Schlatter's Disease / Raynaud's Syndrome / ADD / a cast on their left arm / an inhaler for allergenic asthma / (whatever).  Look at this F160 and tell me what sort of limitations and restrictions should I anticipate and plan for?  What does her/his flight staff and FTO need to know to help make sure the cadet is successful?"

And I both expected and received advice from an educated, certificated health professional that I would not expect to get from your "any reasonable adult."


I'm not trying to sharpshoot you here.  If you meant something other than what you said, now would be a good time to explain.

All you need to do is support your specific assertion about what HSOs can or can't do. 

And not try to suggest that others have to somehow disprove your assertion.  Which is hard for us to do when it appears to be false.


Just go ahead and tell us why you think HSOs cannot give commanders professional advice.

Heck, I think I can even save you some time by telling you not to look at paragraph 1-7(f) of the CAPR 160-1.

Because that says
Quote from: CAPR 160-1
Health service officers advise these commanders on safe participation of members after reviewing CAP 160 series forms and assist in making needed preparations at an activity to make participation as safe as possible for members.

Which I don't think helps your assertion very much.



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