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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Please Someone Tell Me I'm 'Golden' (I'll Explain)
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Author Topic: Please Someone Tell Me I'm 'Golden' (I'll Explain)  (Read 3284 times)
DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 119
Unit: W-MICH
« on: June 24, 2017, 07:55:44 PM »
Having just completed all requirements for level III, I remembered that the promotion criteria had changed.  Sure enough, going online to the CAP website, it now says that you need a level iii to obtain Captain (not Major).  Being bummed out for about an hour, my wife asked me if maybe there's a grandfather clause and you still might get to be a Major?)

 
CAPR 35-5 22 NOVEMBER 2016, 2.1.2 [/size]pg. 10:[/size][size=78%] [/size][/size]NOTE: Members applying for duty performance promotions during the period 11 August 2014 to 11 August 2018 may use the previous duty performance promotion requirements for their next promotion. The member’s present date of grade must be prior to 11 August 2014 in order to be eligible for this grandfather clause. This clause may only be used once for the member’s next promotion. My current date of rank is 9 July 2009.  I believe I meet the criteria that will allow me to be promoted to Major (and of course "[size=78%][/size]When the moon is in the Seventh House a[/color][/size]nd Jupiter aligns with Mars[/color][/size]) I may be [/size]anointed to Major.[/color]

[/size]Apologize for the sarcasm.  Anyway, am I reading the regulations correctly?[/color]

[/size]Thanks, Dave[/color]
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
Former GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Administration Officer and Historian
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,739
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 10:59:18 PM »
Your >last< promotion date had to be before Aug 2014, in which case you get "1-click" to your next
grade under the old program as long as you complete the requirements before Aug 2018, this is what is going to
make RSC hard to get into next year and cause a summer slam in a lot of PDO classes as people
are awoken to a loud ticking Grandfather clock. (heh, see what I did there? Awesome).

From then you have to catch up your grade to the respective new levels (IV for Maj & V for Lt Col),
but the additional new TIG.

The promotion module was updated to reflect both paths as applicable respectively, so the easiest way
to tell for sure is go in there and see if all your flags are green or not - your CC can, as can your PDO and
probably Personnel, not sure if a rank and file member can see their own.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 09:39:06 AM by Eclipse » Logged


LATORRECA
Seasoned Member

Posts: 226
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2017, 08:01:44 AM »
Golden

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,878
Unit: MER-MD-071
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2017, 06:10:52 PM »
The new requirements were published 3 years ago, Why is it that there's so many people just learning about it now?
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,739
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2017, 08:27:58 PM »
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 25, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
The new requirements were published 3 years ago, Why is it that there's so many people just learning about it now?

Command failings across the board, poor mentoring, and members who can't be bothered.

Wing PDOs should be reminding downstream PDOs of this at least quarterly, if not monthly, and
PDOs at all levels should be running reports monthly to know who needs what and find out why they
aren't doing it. When was the last time you heard this even mentioned by NHQ or your wing?

Ultimately it's the Commander's responsibility to make taking care of his people a priority - when I took over
my squadron we had a number of people who were 2-3 years behind on PD and promotions, including one chap who'd
been promotable for about 18 months. fixing that was in my top 5 things to do when I took over, and I don't
allow my members to treat PD and progression as "optional".

Can I force anyone to do things? No, but I make sure they have all the information they need to get things done,
that doing them isn't a PITA, if there are no PD classes they need offered, I host one, and in all cases I am a squeaky wheel that they
would just as soon as oil by taking Yeager, SLS, Tech rating, whatever, as keep hearing about it.

Bottom line, whatever the issue or subject, if the CC doesn't view it as a priority, no one else will, and the first and only priority as a CC
is managing the membership to accomplish the mission(s).  It's not "flying", or "radioing", or "Ground Pounding", or running
outside CAP activities, or any of the excuses CC's make, all of that is secondary to managing the members and the mission(s).
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,139
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2017, 08:51:38 PM »
Quote from: Eclipse on June 25, 2017, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 25, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
The new requirements were published 3 years ago, Why is it that there's so many people just learning about it now?

Command failings across the board, poor mentoring, and members who can't be bothered.

Wing PDOs should be reminding downstream PDOs of this at least quarterly, if not monthly, and
PDOs at all levels should be running reports monthly to know who needs what and find out why they
aren't doing it. When was the last time you heard this even mentioned by NHQ or your wing?

Ultimately it's the Commander's responsibility to make taking care of his people a priority - when I took over
my squadron we had a number of people who were 2-3 years behind on PD and promotions, including one chap who'd
been promotable for about 18 months. fixing that was in my top 5 things to do when I took over, and I don't
allow my members to treat PD and progression as "optional".

Can I force anyone to do things? No, but I make sure they have all the information they need to get things done,
that doing them isn't a PITA, if there are no PD classes they need offered, I host one, and in all cases I am a squeaky wheel that they
would just as soon as oil by taking Yeager, SLS, Tech rating, whatever, as keep hearing about it.

Bottom line, whatever the issue or subject, if the CC doesn't view it as a priority, no one else will, and the first and only priority as a CC
is managing the membership to accomplish the mission(s).  It's not "flying", or "radioing", or "Ground Pounding", or running
outside CAP activities, or any of the excuses CC's make, all of that is secondary to managing the members and the mission(s).


How can a Senior Member be "behind" on PD and promotions? ???  The only mandatory PD is Level 1, everything beyond that is voluntary as are any promotions.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,739
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2017, 09:03:47 PM »
Quote from: PHall on June 25, 2017, 08:51:38 PM
How can a Senior Member be "behind" on PD and promotions? ??? .

Did you actually read the above? Because I provided examples.

Here's a few.

Any senior member appointed as a staff member who is either not rated or not working towards a rating.
You can't do the jobs properly without being mentored and trained, and the way you document that is with the Specialty tracks.
Ignore them or allow people to "roam free" and you wind up with the current state of CAP.

Very active senior members doing 3 jobs who have never had the "luxury" of someone documenting the work they have already done.

Senior members who are "3-flags green" and no one can be bothered to either know about it or click the button.

Senior members who show up to meetings and sit quietly in the back, do nothing and don't seem to have a clue why they are there.
If you're in CAP for more then 6 months and aren't a 2d Lt, there's a problem, if you're in for more then 3 years and aren't a 1st Lt,
there's an issue, because both of those are locally approved grades, which means the CC either can't be bothered, or the members can't.
neither should be acceptable.

Etc., etc.

Members who can't be bothered, also can't be forced, but in those cases they can usually find better ways to spend their
time, and in just about all cases, with a granted occasionally exception, most people "not interested" are so because either
the expectations were not set properly during Level 1, or they >did< try and got crickets from a useless CC or PDO.

I have a couple of members who will probably let the clock run out on them next year and at the end of the day I can't force them,
but I'll be darned if the first time they hear about that clock is sometime in the vague future when they get around to it and discover
their chance evaporated.  The wheel squeaks at every opportunity, because for starters, what else am I doing as a CC if not this sort thing?

Any member who finds themselves in that situation has every right to hold the CC and PDO accountable, and if they quit, it's fully understandable.

A Commander's primary role and function is being fully briefed and current on the state of the program as it evolves,
and while no one can be an SME in everything, you can't abdicate the responsibility, only delegate the function.

Quote from: PHall on June 25, 2017, 08:51:38 PM
The only mandatory PD is Level 1, everything beyond that is voluntary as are any promotions

FWIW, Level 1 is not mandatory, and promotions are not "voluntary".
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 09:08:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged


etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,193
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2017, 10:35:35 PM »
Quote from: Eclipse on June 25, 2017, 09:03:47 PM


If you're in CAP for more then 6 months and aren't a 2d Lt, there's a problem, if you're in for more then 3 years and aren't a 1st Lt,
there's an issue, because both of those are locally approved grades, which means the CC either can't be bothered, or the members can't.


Geez man.  My value to the Squadron IS NOT my grade. My value as a Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, O-Ride Pilot, and Mission Pilot ... hasn't got jack to do with my grade.  Someone in a crashed plane, or lost who needs help doesn't give a flying flip what the person's grade is on the team looking for them.

Yes, yes ... its very important for some folks to progress, circle around me, and become my Squadron leaders. But don't denigrate those who choose to 'stay in the trenches'. Some of us are quite happy to hang low and get the jobs done.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,739
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2017, 10:53:18 PM »
Quote from: etodd on June 25, 2017, 10:35:35 PM
Someone in a crashed plane, or lost who needs help doesn't give a flying flip what the person's grade is on the team looking for them.

Without unit, group, and wing staff to actually >have< a program, no one is even getting called.

A mission pilot who doesn't know what an ESO does is a very good example of the issue.

Someone involved in the unit's website, marketing, and recruiting who isn't also working on ITO and RRO
is another.

From your comments here, it appears your unit is no better, or worse, off then the average and
typically lacking in informed senior staff.

If you want to keep those pilot opportunities open, then you need to be holding up your corner at the squadron,
and to do that with minimal drag, you need to be properly trained and mentored, or as you have seen and indicated,
every basic question becomes a time-wasting hunt as if it was secret knowledge.

CAP hasn't has the manpower for a decade (at least) to allow people to be only aircrew or ground pounders, not to mention
that leaves the question what you're doing at unit meetings and between missions.

Want to know who the first people to whine are when a unit is stood down for a bad SUI? Pilots restricted from flying,
and usually in inverse proportion to the amount of help they offered on that SUI and the work all year to keep the doors open.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:57:15 PM by Eclipse » Logged


etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,193
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 11:02:24 PM »
Quote from: Eclipse on June 25, 2017, 10:53:18 PM

Without unit, group, and wing staff to actually >have< a program, no one is even getting called.

A mission pilot who doesn't know what an ESO does is a very good example of the issue.


You ignored the last paragraph of my post:

Yes, yes ... its very important for some folks to progress, circle around me, and become my Squadron leaders. But don't denigrate those who choose to 'stay in the trenches'. Some of us are quite happy to hang low and get the jobs done.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,193
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2017, 11:08:19 PM »
Quote from: Eclipse on June 25, 2017, 10:53:18 PM

CAP hasn't has the manpower for a decade (at least) to allow people to be only aircrew or ground pounders, not to mention
that leaves the question what you're doing at unit meetings and between missions.


At this week's meeting, as an AP Evaluator, I'll be helping someone get current with AP. I stay quite busy at meetings doing various things with either Cadets or Senior Members.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,739
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 11:16:18 PM »
Quote from: etodd on June 25, 2017, 11:02:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 25, 2017, 10:53:18 PM

Without unit, group, and wing staff to actually >have< a program, no one is even getting called.

A mission pilot who doesn't know what an ESO does is a very good example of the issue.


You ignored the last paragraph of my post:

Yes, yes ... its very important for some folks to progress, circle around me, and become my Squadron leaders. But don't denigrate those who choose to 'stay in the trenches'. Some of us are quite happy to hang low and get the jobs done.

No, I didn't - you're equating PD with grade, I'm not.

Don't want to be a "squadron leader", fine.  That doesn't absolve yo about being properly trained, and mentored in the
roles that you choose to accept, and if you're "working with cadets", etc., that just makes the point.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,193
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 11:25:33 PM »
Eclipse, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.  I guess if I had visited your Squadron first, I may have never joined. Finding one that was a good fit for me has allowed me to fill many roles, as I listed, and I don't think you could find anyone in my squadron who doesn't like me or think I don't add value to the Squadron in many ways, including the families of Cadets I helped recruit.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
deepblue1947
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: LA-076
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 06:31:29 PM »
I am so glad Eclipse made these points and I really think a lot of people just don't get the point he is trying to make.  I am the assistant PDO for our senior squadron and I have been trying to make the very same points and make sure that the membership is aware of what is available to them and how to achieve it and I sometimes think I am beating my head against a brick wall.  It gets frustrating and I sometimes wonder why some of these people are even in the organization.

MG
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 680
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 01:51:09 AM »
Quote from: deepblue1947 on July 01, 2017, 06:31:29 PM
It gets frustrating and I sometimes wonder why some of these people are even in the organization.

Ask them, they'll tell you. You'll hear a lot of good, valid reasons that simply don't include advancement in a meaningless grade system by participating in poorly constructed training administered by equally unqualified instructors. Yet they're at the meetings each week doing whatever they can to keep the doors open.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: 28-037
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 10:13:54 AM »
I wonder if the eventual overhual of the NCO program might reconcile some of these differences...

For the most part, I like the current PD level system*, but it is certainly focused on developing members for "officer" roles, such as command, management, and directorship. I can completely understand that not every CAP member wishes to hold that type of position.
I haven't seen any of the potential NCO PD levels, but I can hope the program will cater more towards members like Etodd and Fubar, to members that are in the program to share their technical know-how, and maybe provide some supervision. They may not ever want to be commanders, or to deal with the political BS that comes with the upper echelons, so we give them no real motivation to peruse their own professional development; we've tied those things together.

Eclipse is spot-on when he says that our members need to be properly trained, but we've essentially tied that training to service as an officer. If an NCO PD system can unlock professional development from the duties of an officer, then maybe it can motivate more people to better themselves, and make our organisation stronger for the future. 


*Why in the world is OBC not a requirement for 2d Lt?   
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
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