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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: G1000 Databases
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« on: May 31, 2017, 04:58:24 PM »

We get the G1000 Nav database updates every 28(?) days for our C-172, but the Airport and Obstacle databases are old and expired.  Does CAP ever update those? Not in the budget?
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2017, 09:10:09 PM »

Over 130 views and no answers, so maybe thats the deal. I guess Hdqs just wants us to all be using Foreflight on our iPads for airport and obstacle data.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2017, 11:17:38 PM »

Over 130 views and no answers, so maybe thats the deal. I guess Hdqs just wants us to all be using Foreflight on our iPads for airport and obstacle data.

Or we don't know and so we didn't post. Or were you going for unfounded speculation? >:D
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2017, 11:39:27 PM »

No. Just wondering if there was an official statement somewhere. I can't find one anywhere, and the folks in my Squadron just know to download and install the Nav database, and we don't get the others. So I was wondering if we will still be using out of date databases 3 or 5 years from now?  Any other Squadron planes getting the full package or is Nav all that anyone gets?
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Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 21
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 07:53:31 AM »

Any other Squadron planes getting the full package or is Nav all that anyone gets?

Neg. Nav databases appear to be the only product that we subscribe to for G1000 (aside from XM weather).

They do come from the factory with the current set of obstacles and terrain database, so the newer the airplane the more current the data. That said, the limitations section of the C-182T POH prohibits the use of the terrain proximity function for primary terrain avoidance anyway.

ForeFlight / other EFB apps appear to be the best source of updated obstacle data, as suggested.
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Larry Mangum
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 650

« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2017, 08:50:18 AM »

The 182's we use for Green Flag East, have all the databases updated. The confusion may be that you have to pull the downloads from a different location than the NAV databases.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 21
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2017, 09:17:41 AM »

Interesting - the G1000 transition syllabus slides say the terrain database is updated annually. Guess the memo hasn't exactly been passed around!
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sparks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 269

« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2017, 09:44:27 AM »

i have been updating the G1000 for years but have never heard of an alternate for the Nav data base. When asked about it we have been told CAP HQ won't pay for it. Is it possible your Green Flag aircraft are the exception?
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Larry Mangum
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 650

« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2017, 09:52:52 AM »

Probably as the aircraft are not like any other aircraft in the fleet.  CAP, pretty much, cannot use them for any other missions without Air Force permission.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
Briank
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2017, 08:27:05 PM »

Over 130 views and no answers, so maybe thats the deal. I guess Hdqs just wants us to all be using Foreflight on our iPads for airport and obstacle data.

Coming from a flying club and rental background...  This seems to be the norm.  I've never yet flown a GPS equipped airplane in any scenario that had up to date airport and obstacle data.  They all just do nav.  So, CAP doing the same didn't really seem out of place to me...
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 11:47:28 PM »

Over 130 views and no answers, so maybe thats the deal. I guess Hdqs just wants us to all be using Foreflight on our iPads for airport and obstacle data.

Coming from a flying club and rental background...  This seems to be the norm.  I've never yet flown a GPS equipped airplane in any scenario that had up to date airport and obstacle data.  They all just do nav.  So, CAP doing the same didn't really seem out of place to me...

Thanks folks for the info. I hope to be taking my IFR checkride in a month or two and was wondering if that would be an issue with the DPE. But apparently it'll be ok, as long as I have airport and other data via other means, whether on paper or iPad.

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Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 21
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 07:47:06 AM »


Thanks folks for the info. I hope to be taking my IFR checkride in a month or two and was wondering if that would be an issue with the DPE. But apparently it'll be ok, as long as I have airport and other data via other means, whether on paper or iPad.

Even if the terrain database is up to date, the aircraft operating handbook limits you from using it as a primary source of terrain avoidance. My impression / understanding is that the DPE would not be satisfied if you said "I'll use the G1000 terrain feature to avoid obstacles" or similar - simply because of that limitation.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2017, 11:49:30 AM »


Thanks folks for the info. I hope to be taking my IFR checkride in a month or two and was wondering if that would be an issue with the DPE. But apparently it'll be ok, as long as I have airport and other data via other means, whether on paper or iPad.

Even if the terrain database is up to date, the aircraft operating handbook limits you from using it as a primary source of terrain avoidance. My impression / understanding is that the DPE would not be satisfied if you said "I'll use the G1000 terrain feature to avoid obstacles" or similar - simply because of that limitation.

Oh yes, for sure.  If the DPE asks me about obstacles or terrain, I would start talking about airway MEAs, MOCAs, and altitudes referenced in approach charts. The G1000 and Foreflight are just advisory in nature.  And making sure I have the latest updates in Foreflight, gives me the current AFD info.
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,142

« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 02:01:10 PM »

This is a timely discussion. In March, an Irish Coast Guard Sikorsky S-92 helo collided with an island during a night SAR operation, killing all four crew members. The helo was equipped with all the latest electronics. The preliminary accident report was released April 13. http://www.aaiu.ie/node/1067

From the cockpit voice recorder the crew was discussing a target or targets detected by several sensors prior to impact. The aircraft commander believed it to be a “small island.” They were flying at 200 feet radar altitude but, as discovered during the investigation, the island was 0, 28, 282 or 310 feet high, including a lighthouse, depending on source.

More importantly, Honeywell, manufacturer of the terrain warning system on the helo, told investigators that “The lighthouse obstacle is not in the obstacle database and the terrain of the island is not in our terrain database.” Manufacturers, for the most part, buy databases from vendors. Accuracy and resolution of the databases are defined by standards.

Applicable to this thread, there are no US or European requirements for users to update obstacle/terrain databases. The FAA requirement is: The TAWS (terrain avoidance and warning system) manufacturers must have a procedure in place whereby the manufacturer can inform either the airplane owner or operator, or both, about updates or how they can learn about updates. The procedure must contain sufficient information to enable them to make a logical safety decision as to whether it is appropriate to purchase and install the update.

Garmin and Honeywell, as examples, both have pages noting terrain advisories and make updated databases available for download. After the release of this preliminary accident report, a specific alert regarding the accident island (attached) was posted on the Garmin website.

Mike
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 851

« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2017, 07:39:58 PM »

This is a timely discussion. In March, an Irish Coast Guard Sikorsky S-92 helo collided with an island during a night SAR operation, killing all four crew members.

CFIT .... The FAA always invokes this :

§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

Out of date database, or incomplete data ... no excuse in the FAA's eyes.
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