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stitchmom
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Posts: 65
Unit: not sure

« on: February 19, 2016, 01:01:33 PM »

My cadet was on a weekend activity where he felt unwell. On top of that when he felt unwell, he had no access to drinkable water, which would be unacceptable in normal conditions but dangerous in the extreme temperatures he was in. He also did not use the restroom that day saying they did not give them enough time. The medic had him sit down but he was never brought to a senior member.
 Not long after that he was yelled at for not being able to carry all of his stuff. When he replied that it was given to him by a senior member, the cadet staff said he should not have accepted it.
Isn't there some type of protocol where the cadet  "medic" would document and bring them to an adult or senior member? I feel like he was bullied and neglected.
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Garibaldi
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Unit: SER-GA-045

Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 01:50:21 PM »

My cadet was on a weekend activity where he felt unwell. On top of that when he felt unwell, he had no access to drinkable water, which would be unacceptable in normal conditions but dangerous in the extreme temperatures he was in. He also did not use the restroom that day saying they did not give them enough time. The medic had him sit down but he was never brought to a senior member.
 Not long after that he was yelled at for not being able to carry all of his stuff. When he replied that it was given to him by a senior member, the cadet staff said he should not have accepted it.
Isn't there some type of protocol where the cadet  "medic" would document and bring them to an adult or senior member? I feel like he was bullied and neglected.

Wow...where to begin on this one...

No access to drinkable water?
No time to go to the bathroom?
Being yelled at for not being able to carry all his stuff?

What kind of activity WAS this? ES exercise of some kind?

Let me assure you, this is NOT how an ES/FTX/SAREX should be run. Just with the given facts, it sounds like, and I emphasize SOUNDS LIKE, it was a failure on the leadership's part to ensure your kid was being taken care of. This begs further questions:

Did your son have his own water source, like canteens or a camelback? What kind of "extreme temperatures" was this, hot or cold? I assume cold since we're not in the southern hemisphere.

Did he ask for time to relieve himself? If I was leading a team, or an activity, I'd be darn sure I gave everyone time to adequately relieve themselves, eat, drink, and rest. No one in their right mind should refuse to allot time for a potty break. Dangerous and unhealthy in all respects.

Why was he given gear? My personal opinion is that if you have gear to carry, you should know right away if it's too much to shoulder. No one is going to be willing to carry your stuff in addition to their own if you get too tired to carry it. We'll do it, but it won't be willingly. If he was unable to carry it, the SM who GAVE it to him should have been responsible enough to ask if it was too heavy. Some kids will either want to not show they are not strong enough, or feel it will be letting the rest of their team down if they say no, I can't carry this much. And sometimes, it can be intimidating to be given a burden and not have the moral courage to say I can't do it when an adult gives you a responsibility. A younger cadet usually doesn't know when to say enough is enough, especially when a lot of people are watching.

On to your question about notification. Once a cadet falls ill, the cadet "medic" has absolutely no authority to treat the cadet as part of CAP. The first thing he can do is make sure the cadet is comfortable, then find the SM in charge. The SM will make the determination to either move the cadet to a hospital, return to base camp and notify the parent to come get them, or contact EMS in a serious emergency.

Getting yelled at for not being able to haul gear is asinine. Unacceptable in any case. Especially if the cadet already feels like poop mentally and physically.

If it were me, I'd find the SM in charge of the activity and ask some of these same questions.
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 02:23:35 PM »

^^^^ I Agree.

I would ask the SM in charge about the events in question. One thing that I teach my Cadets, especially the more experienced ones, is a basic principle of Leadership. We are responsible for everyone below us, a good Officer or NCO does not eat, drink, rest, or sleep until all those below him/ her in the chain have been taken care of. My C/ NCO's all know better than to get ahead of the C/Airmen in the chow line. Even among our Senior Members, you will never see our CC eat before his people are taken care of. We lead by example. What you describe, being yelled at while ill, COULD be defined as hazing, and needs to be looked in to.

Was there a packing list that mentioned hydration source, or an email? Lot's of questions here, but not a lot of answers.

I hope your Cadet does not get scared off by the experience. We have much to offer our young people.

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stitchmom
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Unit: not sure

« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 03:15:18 PM »

He packed plenty of water but it froze at night.

They were told to sleep with their water bottles BUT they were not given enough time to prepare before going to bed.

IMO they should have made sure all of the cadets had their boots, water, and themselves protected before letting them go to bed not rushing them to have lights out. I know kids can lolligaggle and they need to learn to be efficient  but this is a safety issue with those temps. 

No matter what though, if a cadet is feeling unwell and saying he has no water the senior member should have made sure they had water and drank it. Kids spill and lose water and they should have expected some frozen water with sub zero temps and kept some inside. Worse comes to worse they go 5 minutes to a gas station or use hot pot to melt some. The whole point of this is educational, they aren't airmen stationed in Alaska. 

I think with the bathroom it was a time issue he said something like they were not given enough time and with layers of clothing it took too long.  Whatever happened he had some type of fear of taking too long like if they were more than seven minutes (don't quote me on that) and he knew it would take him at least twenty with his clothing. I should have known something was wrong because when I picked him up he just wanted to go to the gas station to the bathroom.
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stitchmom
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Unit: not sure

« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 03:22:30 PM »

With the "medic" yes he should have been returned right away to the warm building or heck even a vehicle and been given water.  The access to a warm building was one of the deciding things of why I sent him. I had second thoughts after another mom withdrew her cadet but I called his Scout Master and asked his opinion as he I knew he had experience in cold weather and I trust his judgement. He went over that he had a hunting boots, a synthetic layer, and that there was a warm building he could be brought to if necessary.
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 03:30:38 PM »

Really is sounding more and more like a leadership failure. Contact the activity project officer.
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stitchmom
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Unit: not sure

« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 01:22:49 PM »

I talked to him.. it's worse than I thought. He was too weak to walk unassisted, he said the "medic" helped him to the fire and asked if he had water. He told him his water was frozen and the "medic" put his canteen by the fire. (Besides not getting him proper help, who puts plastic by a fire?) He said the "medic" stood a few feet away and after a while my son asked him if he could have water. The "medic" gave it to him and said it was still frozen.  The "medic" did not interact with him again after this. Other cadets packed up his stuff. Then it was time to carry the stuff back to the main area. He could not carry his things and another cadet picked up his day pack, that is when the staff member yelled at him for being unable to carry his stuff and what I described above. Once they were in the classroom he told me he was able to use his pocket knife to break apart the ice towards the top of his canteen.

When I picked him up his lip were extremely chapped, it reminded m what I saw when a patient is NPO in a nursing home and you can only use the moist swaps. I had stopped for gas on the way there, I stopped for gas and picked up a soft drink for myself and a yoohoo for him. After we stopped at the gas station for him to use the rest room, he must have drank it in less than a minute.


I asked him more about the bathroom apparently while cadets were using the latrines staff was yelling at them to hurry up.


 I'm livid and heart broken that my baby suffered though this. They should be charged with child abuse & neglect.

Another thing he mentioned driving home was he was disappointed he didn't get the hour long watch duty I forgot the name he called it  because that would have been an hour to eat and he wished his pack was in the car not in the trunk.  I remember last time he was rummaging through his pack for food once I picked him up. I have never seen him eat like that. He said they only have short breaks to eat. So they aren't withholding food but they are not giving them adequate time to eat.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 02:42:39 PM »

Dehydration and mild heat exhaustion are actually common problems I have seen at many winter type CAP activities.  1000 layers cause them to sweat losing fluid, they think its winter, I dont need to drink as much as the summer, but freezing your water doesnt help either. Too bad people spend more time worrying about frost bite and hypothermia.   Sort of a forest thru the trees type of thing.  Looking for signs of specific illness and injury rather than evaluate the whole picture than form an opinion. 

Other factors I would be interested in knowing:  how old is your son, how many other people were involved in this activity?  Were there other illness's reported, or was this an isolated "incident".  ie if there werent multiple problems of a similar nature it may not be a lack of "supervision".  From the previous activity guy sort of perspective, I as a senior member can only effectively watch so many people at one time.  You are trusting that cadet are going to self report problems, and based on previous "mature" behaviors not just remain quiet or say "no, I'm OK" when you ask if if anyone has any problems.  When using the cadet leadership model like many CAP activities do, you also have to assume that cadet leaders are doing the right thing at the right time; I know that system sometimes fails, but not every CAP leader does (there are inexperienced leaders just as there are inexperienced cadets)

I can imagine any number of scenarios that would let this type of situation happen, and not all are the blame of any particular "leader" nor the fault of your son.  As other people have pointed out I would recommend getting in contact with whoever was in charge of the activity and address your concerns there.  You sons experience is unfortunate, but if the activity doesnt know that their cadet staff were ineffective in their roles, they cant make corrections to that and fix it for the next time.

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 07:59:21 PM »

I can imagine any number of scenarios that would let this type of situation happen, and not all are the blame of any particular "leader"

Assuming the version of events given here is accurate, I'd have to disagree. Either the senior oversight was lacking or the cadet staff was ignoring a potential medical emergency, both of which fall back on whoever was running the event.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 02:44:47 AM »

Not to down play this cadets mothers concerns.  We are basing that off of her version of her sons version.  Which I am sure has the potential to have some "grey" areas.

We have talked on here before the difference between yelling vs a command voice, vs tools like "....you people have 5 minutes to get your gear on, and be formed up ready to go.  The longer we wait for cadet Pyle, the longer this is going to take...4min...!!!! lets move it..."  Not everyone takes that the same way, if you are cadet Pyle thats them yelling at you, that is them not giving you enough time to go to the bathroom.  If cadet Pyle is a brand new to CAP 12 yo airman vs a 16 yo Capt, they are going to take those statements very differently, you are going to potentially misunderstand and think you cant go to the bathroom... just for starters.

As a medical professional I can see how one could confuse a mild heat stress and dehydration with cold, at risk for hypothermia.  Neither is an "emergency",  if you move said cadet close to the fire because he is cold and he says he is feeling better would you still rush him off for medical treatment....maybe not.  Even if the token senior member came around and asked if everyone is doing ok, if staff even says yeah this one cadet has been lagging behind and complained of being cold, but we moved him up to the fire and gave him some water, he says he is fine, how many senior members would call BS, and demand to see that cadet. 

Do you personally interview everyone of your cadets at every activity to make sure they are ok, or do you trust your staff (cadet or senior) to be doing their jobs?  All scenarios I have seen in some version or an other, some legit, some they dropped the ball.  As good leaders and mentors we have to make that call on where our level of intervention needs to be in cadet lead activities, and sometimes for some that is a hard line to keep track of.  Could they have done better by this cadet, it sounds like maybe, it could be they didnt do anything wrong, but maybe didnt do everything right.

Do things like this slip thru the cracks, sure, is it a leadership or activity failure, maybe maybe not.  How many cadets are injured or have medical problems at encampments and other activities?  Do we cry that they be shut down, that the encampment commanders be drummed out of CAP for their leadership failures?  But overall id say its all hypothetical, it could very well be that the activity leadership had their head in the ground and ignored all the relevant rules of safety and good leadership techniques and CPP etc etc. 

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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stitchmom
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 04:31:32 AM »

Not to down play this cadets mothers concerns.  We are basing that off of her version of her sons version.  Which I am sure has the potential to have some "grey" areas.

We have talked on here before the difference between yelling vs a command voice, vs tools like "....you people have 5 minutes to get your gear on, and be formed up ready to go.  The longer we wait for cadet Pyle, the longer this is going to take...4min...!!!! lets move it..."  Not everyone takes that the same way, if you are cadet Pyle thats them yelling at you, that is them not giving you enough time to go to the bathroom.  If cadet Pyle is a brand new to CAP 12 yo airman vs a 16 yo Capt, they are going to take those statements very differently, you are going to potentially misunderstand and think you cant go to the bathroom... just for starters.

As a medical professional I can see how one could confuse a mild heat stress and dehydration with cold, at risk for hypothermia.  Neither is an "emergency",  if you move said cadet close to the fire because he is cold and he says he is feeling better would you still rush him off for medical treatment....maybe not.  Even if the token senior member came around and asked if everyone is doing ok, if staff even says yeah this one cadet has been lagging behind and complained of being cold, but we moved him up to the fire and gave him some water, he says he is fine, how many senior members would call BS, and demand to see that cadet. 

Do you personally interview everyone of your cadets at every activity to make sure they are ok, or do you trust your staff (cadet or senior) to be doing their jobs?  All scenarios I have seen in some version or an other, some legit, some they dropped the ball.  As good leaders and mentors we have to make that call on where our level of intervention needs to be in cadet lead activities, and sometimes for some that is a hard line to keep track of.  Could they have done better by this cadet, it sounds like maybe, it could be they didnt do anything wrong, but maybe didnt do everything right.

Do things like this slip thru the cracks, sure, is it a leadership or activity failure, maybe maybe not.  How many cadets are injured or have medical problems at encampments and other activities?  Do we cry that they be shut down, that the encampment commanders be drummed out of CAP for their leadership failures?  But overall id say its all hypothetical, it could very well be that the activity leadership had their head in the ground and ignored all the relevant rules of safety and good leadership techniques and CPP etc etc. 

mk

There is a big difference between cadets should be given proper care versus saying any injuries mean the activity is shut down. There is basic normal parent common sense type of care that should be provided by any adult who is supervising minors or vulnerable people.   Apart from a true crisis adults should not have more minors than they can care for. When I take my friend who has an intellectual disability to McDonalds, if something happens I need to help him or get him help. I will never take him and his roommate out at once because I cannot watch two people who at times wander off because they saw a pen they liked and ended up three stores down while I was asking for more ketchup.

As far as calling EMS and when not to I would think CAP would have some type of  written protocol of when to seek medical attention beyond what is on site. I would think they would have documentation of ANY illness that includes something along the lines of assessment, treatment, and outcome or disposition. (I have no idea what the terms used are.)  My son was not checked on again, instead he was yelled at, all this AFTER he self reported he was too weak.




« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 04:36:34 AM by stitchmom » Report to moderator   Logged
lordmonar
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 04:40:28 AM »

Stitchmom,

Bottom line here is that no one here was there at the activity so we can't give you any answers.

What should you do?

You should take your concerns to your son's commander and the activity director (if it was run by some other unit).
If there were deficiencies in the programs leadership it is the commander who needs to know about it and who has the authority to do something about it.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
stitchmom
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: not sure

« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 04:53:39 AM »

 It was not my son's squadron who did this but I will call his commander. I don't want to blame them, they are so dedicated to these kids, my son included.
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PA Guy
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 07:51:35 AM »

When oh when are we going to get rid of so called "cadet medics"?
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PHall
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 08:55:38 AM »

When oh when are we going to get rid of so called "cadet medics"?

We don't have any in CAWG. And that's a good thing!
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sarmed1
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2016, 12:14:57 AM »

...

There is a big difference between cadets should be given proper care versus saying any injuries mean the activity is shut down. There is basic normal parent common sense type of care that should be provided by any adult who is supervising minors or vulnerable people.   Apart from a true crisis adults should not have more minors than they can care for. When I take my friend who has an intellectual disability to McDonalds, if something happens I need to help him or get him help. I will never take him and his roommate out at once because I cannot watch two people who at times wander off because they saw a pen they liked and ended up three stores down while I was asking for more ketchup.

As far as calling EMS and when not to I would think CAP would have some type of  written protocol of when to seek medical attention beyond what is on site. I would think they would have documentation of ANY illness that includes something along the lines of assessment, treatment, and outcome or disposition. (I have no idea what the terms used are.)  My son was not checked on again, instead he was yelled at, all this AFTER he self reported he was too weak.

You stated this in your post above:  "They should be charged with child abuse & neglect."  Pretty sure that level of complaint is enough to shut down an activity or at least have a number of people suspended pending an investigation.

CAP has no guidelines beyond the expectation of normal parenting for assessment, treatment and outcome disposition.  If this activity identified someone (cadet or senior) as a "medic"  they still operate within the CAP expectation that if it isnt minor first aid, its a send out for medical evaluation either by CAP or 911. The most documentation that is expected is a log of any reported medical problems.  To weak to carry his gear may not be identified as a medical problem, unless there was an injury, so there may not have been a log entry made.  Feeling cold, may not have been identified as a medical problem, so again no log entry.  Doesnt mean that it wasnt, but to the average CAP member without medical training, those may be "normal" response of someone who isnt used to being in the field or in the cold.

CAP's own guideline state that activities only require 2 senor members present at an activity.  There are no guidelines as far as cadet to senior ratio requirements.  I understand your example but there is a very big difference between managing special needs individuals and CAP cadets.  CAP as a general rule ORM matrix's these kinds of things to death, if there were additional reasons to think that personnel were at a higher risk for illness or injury, they would have factored in to the plan.  Just because they plan and compensate for increased incident risks, doesnt mean that incidents wont happen.

MK   
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Panzerbjorn
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2016, 12:44:32 AM »

When oh when are we going to get rid of so called "cadet medics"?

Right after we get rid of so called "cadet mission pilots".

In other words, if they're qualified and can do the job, what's the problem?
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Major
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PA Guy
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2016, 03:05:27 AM »

When oh when are we going to get rid of so called "cadet medics"?

Right after we get rid of so called "cadet mission pilots".

In other words, if they're qualified and can do the job, what's the problem?

That is poor analogy and a moot point. The role and requirements of cadet mission  pilots is well defined both by the FAA and CAP. No such requirements are established for cadet "medics".  There is nothing in CAPR 160-1 that defines what constitutes a medic cadet or senior. There is no standard minimum training requirement. There is no credentialing or privilege process. There is no medical direction. The scope of care defined in CAPR 160-1 is very narrow. Exceed that standard and you will have no backing from CAP.

The average cadet or senior "medic" lacks the skill and judgement to manage and treat pediatric fever beyond what mom would do. There is also the question of the maturity and judgement of the average cadet.

I have been a health care provider for 35 yrs with ALS, PALS, BTLS and yrs of clinical practice. Trust me there is more to this than can they do the job.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2016, 03:18:47 AM »

I would say cadet health services officer would be a more appropriate analogy.  If utilized, they should be doing the same thing that a senior health services officer does (and likewise restricted the same) and like most other "cadet" positions, should be monitored/mentored by a qualified senior member, who should be equally well versed in the expectations and capabilities (or lack there of) of medical care for CAP activities (and any specific threat assessment and special considerations depending on the situations)

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 03:29:13 AM »

When oh when are we going to get rid of so called "cadet medics"?

Right after we get rid of so called "cadet mission pilots".

In other words, if they're qualified and can do the job, what's the problem?

Here's a handy reference chart:

______________________________
| CAP Mission Pilot = actual real job.   |
|_______________________________
|
| CAP Medic = made up pretend job.   |
_______________________________|

(One cannot be "qualified" to do a made up pretend job).
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
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