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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2015, 07:03:03 PM »



Never said it can't happen I have simply said and restated it is not as simple as everyone thinks it is. <<SNIP>>

I understand you make a living doing this but access to an airport and a mil installation play by two different sets of rules.  And ultimately it will still come down to if the installation commander even decides that he/she wants us on their yard for anything.   

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."
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Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

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goblin
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« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2015, 07:39:02 PM »



2. Recognition of CAP as the fourth arm of the USAF, (Active, Reserve, Guard, CAP)


Well that makes sense...
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abdsp51
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« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2015, 08:36:20 PM »

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.
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PHall
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« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2015, 04:02:42 AM »

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

If you're on the EAL...
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abdsp51
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« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2015, 04:07:56 AM »

Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2015, 04:11:28 AM »

Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
In violation of the printed AFI.  :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
abdsp51
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« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2015, 04:15:41 AM »

Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
In violation of the printed AFI.  :)

IAW with the IDP signed by the Wg CC.  Which is directed by AFI. 
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lordmonar
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« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2015, 04:17:42 AM »

In violation of the AFI.   :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
abdsp51
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« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2015, 04:19:33 AM »

In violation of the AFI.   :)

Really...
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raivo
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« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2015, 04:59:38 AM »

It is not unheard-of (read: fairly common) for local instructions to contradict HHQ directives, simply because the local authorities aren't aware of said directives.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2015, 06:29:43 AM »

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

I am afraid that you have totally misinterpreted my reasoning. In other words, I said nothing of the sort. But, having explained it as best I can already, I have become weary of trying to engage you in rational discussion on this issue.
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Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
abdsp51
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« Reply #111 on: June 02, 2015, 07:36:43 AM »

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

I am afraid that you have totally misinterpreted my reasoning. In other words, I said nothing of the sort. But, having explained it as best I can already, I have become weary of trying to engage you in rational discussion on this issue.

No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.

As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.

 Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort. 

Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.

And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.

I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
 
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
 
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?  How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?  There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens. 

Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on. 

Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that. 

So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #112 on: June 02, 2015, 08:36:45 AM »

No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.
Well...yes....that's part of the deal of being their axillary.

Quote
As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.
And getting us included in the DBIDS regulations does not affect that in any way.  Stop trying to make it like that is what we are saying.

Quote
Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort.
Straw man argument. 

Quote
Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.
Hence our suggestion that the directive be changed.

Quote
And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.
So do I...but we both seem to think it is both too complecated and too easy at the same time.

Quote
I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
So...when we suggest getting said written guidance you say "work with the local base" but now you say nothing can be done until you get the guidance.

Quote
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
DBIDS is controled by the DOD.....and yes if they build a CAP shaped whole for us...then most certainly it will be someone in the USAF doing the data entry.

Quote
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?
My guess the USAF.   when you consider the amount they already spending...the 60K more people will be almost transparent.  But if push came to shove I bet that the general membership would be willing to pay the $20 or so to pay for the costs if they needed regular access to base.
 
Quote
How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?
CAP-USAF.

Quote
There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens.
Yes...but again I think it is a simpler solution then you do.  YMMV.

Quote
Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on.
And strangely that is not true.  My unit has been on Nellis for many many many years.   There have been zero problems with our members on base.  The base gives us several rooms and the use of several more.  The base wants us, supports us, likes us.   But the security manage reading the security AFI....says NOPE.....No CAP shaped whole for you guys.....and it's not worth my job to bend/break the rules for you guys....sorry.   And the Base commander backs up his security manger.   So we are stuck between a guy just doing his job...and an AFI that does not account for us.  No work around.  No going to the base commander to make it happen.   WE NEED AIR STAFF LEVEL attention to get this fixed and fixed right.

Quote
Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that.
No...you should also have a need to be there...like getting uniforms. 

Quote
So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
If you were "the Air Port Auxiliary".....yes you should.   Your argument is a non sequitur.      We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.   We have by regulation (DOD, Army and USAF) a need and authorization to be on base.  All of this is already in the AFIs and AFPDs.   No one is asking for anything more then what we had before.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
abdsp51
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« Reply #113 on: June 02, 2015, 09:08:32 AM »

No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.
Well...yes....that's part of the deal of being their axillary.

Quote
As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.
And getting us included in the DBIDS regulations does not affect that in any way.  Stop trying to make it like that is what we are saying.

Quote
Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort.
Straw man argument. 

Quote
Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.
Hence our suggestion that the directive be changed.

Quote
And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.
So do I...but we both seem to think it is both too complecated and too easy at the same time.

Quote
I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
So...when we suggest getting said written guidance you say "work with the local base" but now you say nothing can be done until you get the guidance.

Quote
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
DBIDS is controled by the DOD.....and yes if they build a CAP shaped whole for us...then most certainly it will be someone in the USAF doing the data entry.

Quote
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?
My guess the USAF.   when you consider the amount they already spending...the 60K more people will be almost transparent.  But if push came to shove I bet that the general membership would be willing to pay the $20 or so to pay for the costs if they needed regular access to base.
 
Quote
How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?
CAP-USAF.

Quote
There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens.
Yes...but again I think it is a simpler solution then you do.  YMMV.

Quote
Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on.
And strangely that is not true.  My unit has been on Nellis for many many many years.   There have been zero problems with our members on base.  The base gives us several rooms and the use of several more.  The base wants us, supports us, likes us.   But the security manage reading the security AFI....says NOPE.....No CAP shaped whole for you guys.....and it's not worth my job to bend/break the rules for you guys....sorry.   And the Base commander backs up his security manger.   So we are stuck between a guy just doing his job...and an AFI that does not account for us.  No work around.  No going to the base commander to make it happen.   WE NEED AIR STAFF LEVEL attention to get this fixed and fixed right.

Quote
Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that.
No...you should also have a need to be there...like getting uniforms. 

Quote
So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
If you were "the Air Port Auxiliary".....yes you should.   Your argument is a non sequitur.      We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.   We have by regulation (DOD, Army and USAF) a need and authorization to be on base.  All of this is already in the AFIs and AFPDs.   No one is asking for anything more then what we had before.

1) Being an auxiliary doesn't give any such entitlement period base access is a privilege not a right.

2)Not what I am saying at all period, I have said and always said even if it was allowed local CC still has to say yes.

3) Not a straw man argument.  A workers badge at LAX is not going to work at SFO.  And yes I do personally know of two places that a CAP ID is a valid form for entry, I personally worked that access for one unit.

4) A suggestion based on a sense of entitlement see 1.

5) I can guarantee I know more about base entry control than most here.  I have never said it's complicated I have said it's not as easy as it's made out or perceived to be.

6) I have said getting the access people want via DBIDS isn't going to happen until there is guidance.  HAF will not say simply make it so without it being in writing you and I both know that and that is a long process as well.  And until this happens if it happens work with the base. 

7) The DOD has to approve it and could they build a CAP shape hole yes but they have to do it and we both know the DOD does not move quickly on things. 

8) Show me a local installation that has extra money to throw at this? 

9) So CAP-USAF is going to deal with every member who acts a fool, gets barred from base for whatever stupid reason and winds up getting the entire unit thrown off?  They are going to deal with abuse of the access when it happens if this goes through? 

10) There are manpower costs, material costs, legal liabilities and other things to be discussed and hashed out before something of this magnitude goes into effect.

11) Not true how many times have we heard hear on this forum or in person about how the AF base denied them entry when they rolled up to the gate and were denied entry? Every base is different especially in how they interact with us.  Your unit is an example of a positive interaction with the base, in that you are supported and you are wanted there.  I bet there is something in the IDP there that makes the access easier for you.  You and I both know that a security manager is going to abide by the AFI he/she is required to follow and as long as they are doing their job they will be backed.  The work around you find out what is needed to facilitate access and go through the process.  Can Air Staff fix it yep they can they write up everything under the sun but until someone says ok to it, it will sit somewhere.

12) Exactly you must have a need to be there ie normal meeting, special activity, getting uniform items something officially related.

13) And what is the need for DBIDs cards for day to day access to the installation outside of items listed in 12?  The AFI says may have access, may shop at AAFES not will.  And that AFI and AFPD do not govern installation access.  There is no need for base access outside of events and obtaining uniforms. 

Should access be obtained for official business yes, could/should cards be issued to facilitate the access for official business yes, however it's not as simple as go to base get checked get card and go.
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AlphaSigOU
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« Reply #114 on: June 02, 2015, 01:43:18 PM »

...We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.

Axillary? Ya mean CAP is the armpit of the U.S. Air Force? ;) (I think ya meant auxiliary... :D )
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lordmonar
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« Reply #115 on: June 02, 2015, 03:02:12 PM »

1) Being an auxiliary doesn't give any such entitlement period base access is a privilege not a right.
Why not?
Quote
2)Not what I am saying at all period, I have said and always said even if it was allowed local CC still has to say yes.
He does not  have to say yes to every off duty National Guards man, every retiree, every dependent, every janitor, dump truck driver, contractor, and ever visitor from some other service.   Why must he say YES to every CAP member? You are creating a straw-man argument by saying somehow CAP is special and requires special handling.
Quote
3) Not a straw man argument.  A workers badge at LAX is not going to work at SFO.  And yes I do personally know of two places that a CAP ID is a valid form for entry, I personally worked that access for one unit.
But what happens at FAA facilities has nothing to do with USAF bases.  That's the straw-man.  Secondly my retiree card works at all DoD facilities ergo again you argument does not work.
Quote
4) A suggestion based on a sense of entitlement see 1.
A suggestion need to facilitate the directives in AFPD 10-27 and the 10-27XX series AFIs.  Not to mention the intent of the installation commander.
Quote
5) I can guarantee I know more about base entry control than most here.  I have never said it's complicated I have said it's not as easy as it's made out or perceived to be.
Okay you win.
Quote
6) I have said getting the access people want via DBIDS isn't going to happen until there is guidance.  HAF will not say simply make it so without it being in writing you and I both know that and that is a long process as well.  And until this happens if it happens work with the base.
Yes....but when I suggested that we do just that for just that reason.....you said it was not going to happen and that we should be working with the local commander.   But you don't know what I was going through and you just assumed that I was an entitlement seek CAPPER and never bother to ask what was going on.
Quote
7) The DOD has to approve it and could they build a CAP shape hole yes but they have to do it and we both know the DOD does not move quickly on things.
Never said they would.  Your point?
Quote
8) Show me a local installation that has extra money to throw at this?
The local installation already has the equipment, the manpower, and the requirement to pay for it.   At the most we add 15 minutes of time to the existing job of issuing a DBIDS card and the cost of the card itself.  So your "find me a local base that has the money" argument is a non-player.   Also....let's be real here.  IF were were very very pessimistic and said that it actually cost $100 per cap member to implement this that is only $600K that is a drop in the bucket.  It would take about 10 seconds for that to get through the budget guys and onto the next budget and get added to our congressional funding authorization.
Quote
9) So CAP-USAF is going to deal with every member who acts a fool, gets barred from base for whatever stupid reason and winds up getting the entire unit thrown off?  They are going to deal with abuse of the access when it happens if this goes through?
Sure why not...who does it now?  Cadet X or SM Y gets caught trying to buy cigaretts at the local BX the call the CAP Region Liaison and complain.  They add that individual to "don't allow access list" and if it is a local member talk to the local commander.   You act like we are asking for something we don't already have.   My unit has been on base for [darn] near two decades and there has been a CAP unit on Nellis since at least the 70's.   You are trying to say this is some new problem that has got to be dealt with before we can get access to the base we already have access to.
Quote
10) There are manpower costs, material costs, legal liabilities and other things to be discussed and hashed out before something of this magnitude goes into effect.
Already exists.  We are not asking for anything new.  We are simply asking to be added to the new security program to continue to do what we have been doing for years and years.
Quote
11) Not true how many times have we heard hear on this forum or in person about how the AF base denied them entry when they rolled up to the gate and were denied entry? Every base is different especially in how they interact with us.  Your unit is an example of a positive interaction with the base, in that you are supported and you are wanted there.  I bet there is something in the IDP there that makes the access easier for you.  You and I both know that a security manager is going to abide by the AFI he/she is required to follow and as long as they are doing their job they will be backed.  The work around you find out what is needed to facilitate access and go through the process.  Can Air Staff fix it yep they can they write up everything under the sun but until someone says ok to it, it will sit somewhere.
Yes...that's my point.  The AFI does not have a CAP shaped whole in it.  We need that whole so we can continue to have the access we enjoyed for years and years.
Quote
12) Exactly you must have a need to be there ie normal meeting, special activity, getting uniform items something officially related.
Yes.  And we need to be in the AFI so that we can go to pass and ID and get a pass (at the very least) or be issued a DBIDS card if we have regular continued access needs.   We are not asking to be allowed to cross read at 0300 on a Saturday just because we want see the pretty planes and it is our right as CAP!   We simply want to facilitate the access we had in the past.
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13) And what is the need for DBIDs cards for day to day access to the installation outside of items listed in 12?  The AFI says may have access, may shop at AAFES not will.  And that AFI and AFPD do not govern installation access.  There is no need for base access outside of events and obtaining uniforms.
The alternative is to go to the visitor center every time and get a pass.   That eats up more time.   Let's say member X makes six visits to the local base a year for a BX Run (to buy uniforms) each visit costs 10 minutes to get the pass.  Or he can be issued a DBIDS card which takes 15 minutes to issue and then is good until he's membership expires.   Now let's expand that to a unit meets on base...that's at least 52 visits a year.   You honestly going to tell me that it is cheaper to issue visitor passes then it is to issue a DBIDS card.   And if you go with the idea of making the CAPID DBIDS scannable....we totally eliminate costs to the USAF.
Quote
Should access be obtained for official business yes, could/should cards be issued to facilitate the access for official business yes, however it's not as simple as go to base get checked get card and go.
But it is.  Because that is exactly what we were doing for a year.   We submitted our member's information to CAP Wing, they passed it to the local CAPRAP who passed it on to the base security manager who entered our data into the DBIDS data base.  Our members then went to the visitor's center and were issued their cards.   What has changed is that the local security manager does not think that the local CAP RAP can be a base sponsor....as their status as non-AD reservist not actually assigned to the base is not the right shape per their interpretation of the regulation.  So....what we need is simply a paragraph in the regulation to formalize the already existing process.  Or better yet move all the data entry requirements up to NHQ.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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