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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO
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Panache
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« Reply #260 on: April 17, 2015, 07:38:33 AM »

As much as many of us don't want to believe it, I think the unspoken but real conflict the AF has with us as "officers" is that often we don't share the same cultural underpinning. Look at LSTHiker's post with the degree stats: the fewer experiences we have in common with AF officers, the less likely we are to be accepted as peers...and when we wear blues with officer grade on them, we are outwardly claiming, at some level, that we're "peers."

Until that point when they start paying CAP officers and give them authority and responsibilities under UCMJ, CAP officers won't be close to being peers with AF officers, no matter how many degrees CAP officers have.

So, basically, never.
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Storm Chaser
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NCO
« Reply #261 on: April 17, 2015, 11:37:33 AM »

That's true, which begs the question, why do we wear Air Force-style uniforms, grades and insignias and use titles and organizational structures similar to those in the Air Force?

If a Lt Col in CAP looks like a Lt Col in the Air Force and other services, but doesn't mean close to the same thing, then why call Lt Col? Why use the same or similar grade insignia? The same goes for other grades.

A candidate to 2d Lt in the Air Force must pass an entry exam, must go through a competitive selection process, must have a bachelor's degree and must go through 12 weeks to 4 years of training (depending on commissioning source) before getting a commission. In comparison, we practically hand 2d Lt bars to new members after 6 months and Level 1. Why does every member in CAP has to be an officer regardless of background, experience, training, education or duty assignment?

In most organizations, officers are those holding positions of trust, authority and responsibility. In CAP, practically every member is an officer regardless of what they do.
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Av8tion
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« Reply #262 on: April 17, 2015, 12:51:49 PM »

While we have this (at times) heated debate about the future of CAP officership and NCO progression, let me reassure those members without college degrees that CAP will NEVER implement a policy that wholesale demotes CAP officers to NCO status or removes their bars/leaves/etc. That simply won't happen. Current members will be grandfathered into the old system. There are several precedents for this:

1) When Lt Col was made a probationary grade for 1 year not too long ago, those who already earned the grade weren't subject to demotion due to inactivity.
2) When the new duty performance promotion criteria was released last year it provided a period for officers to remain in the current system for one promotion before being subject to the new requirements.

If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.

In my opinion, the difference between officers and enlisted in CAP should be technical specialists / "niche members" for the enlisted grades and those interested in a big-picture management/command role to pursue the officer grades. Training and progression would be different based on the path you choose (key word being choose... all members should have the opportunity to become an officer or enlisted). NCOs would have training and performance requirements tailored to their specialty tracks and specialty courses like AEPSM (Yeager award), TLC, ICUT, etc. Officers would all have the same universal requirements spanning all three of CAP's primary missions as well as leadership training courses like SLS, CLC, UCC, etc.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #263 on: April 17, 2015, 03:43:09 PM »



If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.


That would make for an outstanding atmosphere.  Us vs Them.  Those of us who had to have degrees and then theres you dummies over there who were grandfathered in.  Don't think there wont be a way for the "new breed" to set themselves apart from the old timers.  its just how it works.  You cant have two sets of criteria for officer-ship.  Those who were required to have the higher standard WILL separate themselves. 
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RiverAux
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« Reply #264 on: April 17, 2015, 04:20:49 PM »

As opposed to creating an entirely new class of members that will still basically be doing the exact same work as the officers?
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #265 on: April 17, 2015, 05:01:36 PM »

If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.

I think the more likely option is that officers will get to keep their existing grade but will have to meet ALL requirements to promote to the next officer grade.  "Sorry Captain Bagodonuts, but you need a four year degree to make Major now.  We *are* running a special on CAP SMSgt chevrons if you'd like to transition to the NCO corps."
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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lordmonar
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« Reply #266 on: April 17, 2015, 06:12:10 PM »

If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.

I think the more likely option is that officers will get to keep their existing grade but will have to meet ALL requirements to promote to the next officer grade.  "Sorry Captain Bagodonuts, but you need a four year degree to make Major now.  We *are* running a special on CAP SMSgt chevrons if you'd like to transition to the NCO corps."
Just for the sake of conversation......it would probably me much like the last change to the officer promotion.   You are grandfathered to the next rank, (and or 2/3 years which ever comes first) and then you have to follow the new regs.

And yes.....by then the NCO path would be open to all.  It may be too late at that point to make the switch (as the switch matrix we discussed was discussed as a limited time offer sort of deal).
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
sarmed1
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« Reply #267 on: April 17, 2015, 06:20:37 PM »

...
Until that point when they start paying CAP officers and give them authority and responsibilities under UCMJ, CAP officers won't be close to being peers with AF officers, no matter how many degrees CAP officers have.

So, basically, never.

I have been in involved in a few organiztions where there are volunteer and paid staff doing similar if not the same jobs.  The volunteers are often given a bit more slack, but many of the proffesional expectations and the bulk of the training and learning are close to if not the same.  When doing the job, the only way you know the difference is if they tell you so.  "Peer" relationship between military and volunteer is not that unrealisitic.
UCMJ only applies to military personnel, the USAF as well as the rest of the DoD utilize both civilian employees and contractors that are held to equivilent expectations and ramifications as UCMJ.  Applying that to "auxillary" members is not that complicated.  AD/Res vs civilian employee is also not that differnt, if your work place supervisor is a civilian you as a military member are expected to follow their directions, policies etc etc just as if they are the equivilent military member. (sans saluting)

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #268 on: April 17, 2015, 07:29:11 PM »

"Volunteer and paid staff doing similar if not same jobs"?  That is an interesting statement, however it doesn't relate to grade distinction in a totally volunteer organization.  CAP is, and will always be, a totally volunteer organization; manned by civilian volunteers who are trained with the help of a combination of funds from different sources.

The simple fact; we are trained to a certain standard, and that standard does not require advanced degrees of any kind will not change.  That said, it is up to our Leadership if we need to have our senior members divided by a military style caste system.  If we chose this path, I can pretty much guarantee a seismic shift in the way business will be conducted.  We are the CIVIL Air Patrol; not some military arm of the Air Force.  IMHO,  Our auxiliary status is not dependent on such distinctions.  Our missions are not either. 

How CAP finally decides to implement the NCO track still remains to be seen.  I can only speak from experience, and that experience takes me back to when CAP removed the NCO program in the late 70s'.   The caste system will not work today.   There are no safeguards that can be implemented to "prevent crossing the line", and we no longer are willing to just "take it" when someone says "you can't do that", because of formal education having nothing to do with the job at hand.  Just ask the Volunteer Fire Chief after 40 years of service if he is "qualified".

My opinion is; we will never make CAP "more like the Air Force".  If that is the goal; we will fail.  The previous 250 or so thoughts on this thread make things pretty clear to me. This is going to be a very tough nut to sell.


 
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RiverAux
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« Reply #269 on: April 17, 2015, 07:38:37 PM »

I have been in involved in a few organiztions where there are volunteer and paid staff doing similar if not the same jobs. 

In this case we are not in the same organization and are not doing similar if not the same jobs.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #270 on: April 17, 2015, 07:45:53 PM »

It can't be done....so let's not even try....because.....reasons.

Okay....got it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
TheTravelingAirman
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« Reply #271 on: April 17, 2015, 07:47:07 PM »

Back to the subject of NCO appointments, then back to discussing the need. Email from NHQ.

"I have sent this up to my supervisor as required at this time for all NCO appointments.  This is being reviewed.  As soon as the National Chief Master Sergeant gets back to them on his review of the promotions that have been forwarded for his approval. This may take some time sorry this is a learning curve for us since this is a new program."

So, it'll take a bit longer than in the past. Wonder why Nat'l CMSgt is on it?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #272 on: April 17, 2015, 08:06:45 PM »

Quote
From SARMED

AD/Res vs civilian employee is also not that differnt, if your work place supervisor is a civilian you as a military member are expected to follow their directions...


The difference is that a military under a civilian both would be working under the DOD bigger umbrella. CAP would not be working in that relationship. If anything CAP would be working always under Air Force.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #273 on: April 17, 2015, 08:09:13 PM »

Back to the subject of NCO appointments, then back to discussing the need. Email from NHQ.

"I have sent this up to my supervisor as required at this time for all NCO appointments.  This is being reviewed.  As soon as the National Chief Master Sergeant gets back to them on his review of the promotions that have been forwarded for his approval. This may take some time sorry this is a learning curve for us since this is a new program."

So, in order to better imitate the military we're allowing an NCO to make the final call on whether or not a promotion approved by an officer goes through?
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TheTravelingAirman
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« Reply #274 on: April 17, 2015, 08:12:45 PM »

RiverAux,
Certainly not my point, but a good question nonetheless.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #275 on: April 17, 2015, 09:55:14 PM »

It can't be done....so let's not even try....because.....reasons.

Okay....got it.
It's not even that.  It's that its not even needed.  Nobody involved in the transition can even articulate why it's needed.
Again..... The job will fall to who is interested, who has the ability and who has the time. Not "who" based on the symbol they choose to wear.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #276 on: April 17, 2015, 11:36:11 PM »


We are the CIVIL Air Patrol; not some military arm of the Air Force.  IMHO,  Our auxiliary status is not dependent on such distinctions.  Our missions are not either. 

And neither do we need to wear Air Force-style uniforms or hold Air Force-style grades or use Air Force-style titles or earn Air Force-style decorations. You get the point.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #277 on: April 17, 2015, 11:52:52 PM »

People who earned chevrons were not required to remove them. That insignia was permitted for wear until they, for whatever reason, left CAP. There were just no more promotions available.

I looked through all but one of the uni regs from 1972 on, and it doesn't look like they were every totally removed from use. The one I'm missing is after NCOs were reinstated.

When you say they didn't have to remove the chevrons, are you basing that on the uniform manual or the appointment regulation? I can easily picture the uniform manual retaining the illustrations and instructions for wearing them, due to sync differences.

I really don't recall seeing ANY NCOs from 1972 until they were brought back, but I do remember seeing former NCOs.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #278 on: April 17, 2015, 11:56:47 PM »



If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.


That would make for an outstanding atmosphere.  Us vs Them.  Those of us who had to have degrees and then theres you dummies over there who were grandfathered in.  Don't think there wont be a way for the "new breed" to set themselves apart from the old timers.  its just how it works.  You cant have two sets of criteria for officer-ship.  Those who were required to have the higher standard WILL separate themselves.

Don't we have that already, sorting people by trouser color?
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
lordmonar
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Posts: 10,694

« Reply #279 on: April 18, 2015, 12:13:30 AM »

It can't be done....so let's not even try....because.....reasons.

Okay....got it.
It's not even that.  It's that its not even needed.  Nobody involved in the transition can even articulate why it's needed.
Again..... The job will fall to who is interested, who has the ability and who has the time. Not "who" based on the symbol they choose to wear.
I am part of the process and I have on several occasions articulated the problem.  That you don't see it....well I just say we may not agree but we the problem has been articulated.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO
 


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