June 02, 2020, 08:40:04 pm

NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 pm

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Ned

Quote from: AirAux on March 16, 2015, 02:45:27 pm
Our rank is too easy? 


Reasonable minds differ on this.  Some folks would say "yes," and others "no."  It is certainly a worthy topic of discussion if we can do so in a respectful manner.  Especially in the context of a discussion board, we should be able to discuss any aspect of CAP.  Nothing should be "off limits."  Wouldn't you agree?

QuoteSix months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s? 


After your comment, I spent some time trying to figure that out, but couldn't find much information.  (I've already confessed to my weak on-line research skills in this thread.)

I did find a reference on Snopes that talked about how the "high mortality rate of 2LTs in VN" wisdom appears to be unsupported by any evidence.

And I also found a reference on Answers.com that suggests that there were relatively few 2LT platoon leaders in VN because most were promoted to 1LT upon arrival in-country.

Neither is authoritative, of course, and neither speaks directly to your point. 

But personally I have little doubt that many young lieutenants died bravely in that war. 

I'm just not sure how that relates to grade in CAP.


LSThiker

Quote from: Ned on March 16, 2015, 04:41:53 pm
Quote from: AirAux on March 16, 2015, 02:45:27 pm
Six months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s? 


After your comment, I spent some time trying to figure that out, but couldn't find much information.  (I've already confessed to my weak on-line research skills in this thread.)


Not that many really.  There were 806 O-1 officers killed in direct combat in Vietnam.  496 were Army, 18 were Navy, 8 were Air Force, 284 were Marine Corps, 0 were Coast Guard. 

Interestingly, there were only 64 battlefield commissions during the Vietnam War.  62 were Marines and 2 were Air Force, which were given during their captivity and then endorsed by the DoD.  The Army did not give any battlefield commissions. 

However, as far as I can tell, there was no breakdown of officers that held GEDs that were killed in Vietnam.

Quote from: AirAux on March 16, 2015, 02:45:27 pm
Our rank is too easy?  Six months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s?  Your statement is a [darn] insult to many a good man that is no longer with us.  Their job was a heck of a lot more important than what CAP does.  I find that statement totally reprehensible.   


There were many good "officers" that were killed in wars with less than GEDs.  Some having never had any education.  So by your logic, should CAP also accept adults that have no HS diplomas or GEDs for 2d Lt?

Flying Pig

Quote from: AirAux on March 16, 2015, 02:45:27 pm
Our rank is too easy?  Six months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s?  Your statement is a [darn] insult to many a good man that is no longer with us.  Their job was a heck of a lot more important than what CAP does.  I find that statement totally reprehensible.


Well.......It took me 17 years to make Lt. in the Sheriffs Department  >:D

Storm Chaser


Quote from: AirAux on March 16, 2015, 02:45:27 pm
Our rank is too easy?  Six months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s?  Your statement is a [darn] insult to many a good man that is no longer with us.  Their job was a heck of a lot more important than what CAP does.  I find that statement totally reprehensible.


How? CAP is not the military and did not participate in Vietnam. The Colonel was referring to CAP members. How do you construe that as an insult to our service members?

Panache

Quote from: lordmonar on March 13, 2015, 06:27:25 am
It is too easy to become a Lt Col in CAP.

One of the reasons our parent organization, our customers and our selves....look down on our rank structure is....because it is too easy.  A GED and six months and you are a Lt.

If we (by that I mean CAP Leadership) wish to make becoming an officer harder, and promoting up the Officer ranks more in line with "real" officers......then we need to have an avenue for those who can't or won't make the grade to continue to serve.


But we aren't "real" officers (at least while serving in CAP).  We're civilian volunteers.  Even if you made it "harder" to become an officer in CAP... we still wouldn't be "real" officers.  We still wouldn't have any authority over anybody in the RealMilitary(tm).  Military personnel wouldn't be required to salute us.  We would not be subject to UCMJ.

The only thing we would achieve would be to cut down on the numbers of CAP officers.

RiverAux

Quote from: Panache on March 18, 2015, 07:01:46 am
But we aren't "real" officers (at least while serving in CAP). 


We are, in fact, real CAP officers.  Nothing more is needed. 

FW

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 11:36:14 am
Quote from: Panache on March 18, 2015, 07:01:46 am
But we aren't "real" officers (at least while serving in CAP). 


We are, in fact, real CAP officers.  Nothing more is needed.


Thus the point(less) of this whole thread..... >:D

shuman14

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 11:36:14 am
Quote from: Panache on March 18, 2015, 07:01:46 am
But we aren't "real" officers (at least while serving in CAP). 


We are, in fact, real CAP officers.  Nothing more is needed.


Which is true, but as several have have pointed out, many agencies (ie the Military, Police, Fire, EMA, etc.) and/or their personnel don't view CAP Officers as... peers... for lack of a better word.

Base that on a lack of knowledge of CAP, a lack of professionalism by some CAP members (actually a rarity I believe), the lack of a degreed education (ie the GED 2LT mentioned above)  or hundred other reasons that we can think of.

The fact is progression in rank within CAP can actually be very quick, in comparison to these agencies. As Flying Pig pointed out, 17 years to make LT is forever in CAP terms but for many Police agencies, that's the norm.

Look at the Military, four years of college, a commissioning source (ROTC, OCS, or Academy), a Branch Officer Basic Course, and then two years in grade before they promote to 1LT/LTJG and are considered proficient in their duties.

So is it wrong to say that CAP has "too many Officers" or that CAP is "top heavy in Field Grade Officers"? In most CAP members' minds... no, but outside looking in, they can make the point.

Does building a CAP NCO Corps change that preconception? Maybe.

If CAP does a shift in which members start as CAP Airmen and progress thru Enlisted to NCO ranks, instead of jumping straight to 2LT, it really could change that.

There will be a place for Officers of course, but having a broad base of Enlisted and NCOs as the "body" of CAP makes much more sense to those outsiders looking in.

The problem will be when that change comes (if it ever does), will be what to do with the Officer Corps that already exists.

Grandfather them? Convert them to Warrant/Flight Officers? Convert them to Enlisted/NCO ranks? Do nothing?

Things that make you go hmmm.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

RiverAux

QuoteWhich is true, but as several have have pointed out, many agencies (ie the Military, Police, Fire, EMA, etc.) and/or their personnel don't view CAP Officers as... peers... for lack of a better word.

They're not our peers.  They don't know the first thing about organizing an aerial search.  They're just a bunch of posers wearing rank that looks like ours and thinking they're just as good as us at our job. 

See how that works? 

We're different organizations with different rules except in the one area where it matters -- ES .  We all follow (more or less) the same ICS rules and training programs.  When we interact with these other agencies 99% of the time it is in relation to ES.  So, unless you want to tie rank to ES quals (something I'm actually in favor of).....




JeffDG

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 05:59:54 pm
QuoteWhich is true, but as several have have pointed out, many agencies (ie the Military, Police, Fire, EMA, etc.) and/or their personnel don't view CAP Officers as... peers... for lack of a better word.

They're not our peers.  They don't know the first thing about organizing an aerial search.  They're just a bunch of posers wearing rank that looks like ours and thinking they're just as good as us at our job. 


It's like when you see some small-county sheriff in uniform.  The entire department has 5 officers, but, by God, his collar has stars on it.

Panache

Quote from: shuman14 on March 18, 2015, 05:15:54 pm
Base that on a lack of knowledge of CAP, a lack of professionalism by some CAP members (actually a rarity I believe), the lack of a degreed education (ie the GED 2LT mentioned above)  or hundred other reasons that we can think of.


What's wrong with a GED?  Considering the sad state of today's High School education, I personally have more respect for somebody with a GED (as it show that they went out and made an effort to actually learn the material and pass the GED test) as opposed to just occupy space in a High School chair.  Most GED-holders aren't stupid, they simply had to drop out of High School because of circumstances in their life.

shuman14

Nothing wrong with a GED, for that level of education.

The Military requires a BS/BA degree to be commissioned. To be competitive for Field Grade promotions you should have Masters.

Most police agencies today require a AS in criminal justice (or higher) to walk in the door.

While I concur with your thoughts on a High School education, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

JeffDG

Quote from: shuman14 on March 18, 2015, 07:40:50 pm
Nothing wrong with a GED, for that level of education.

The Military requires a BS/BA degree to be commissioned. To be competitive for Field Grade promotions you should have Masters.

Most police agencies today require a AS in criminal justice (or higher) to walk in the door.

While I concur with your thoughts on a High School education, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.


Far too many organizations treat a BA/BS as some kind of magic.

Panache

Ironically enough this discussion came up at work today.  One of my co-workers was telling me that her daughter was trying to get more hours at the Taco Bell that just opened up in town so she could make a dent in paying off her school loans for her BA in Social Work.  Her son, with a BS in Communications, isn't much better, selling mobile phones in the mall.

Private Investigator

Quote from: JeffDG on March 19, 2015, 12:44:12 am
Quote from: shuman14 on March 18, 2015, 07:40:50 pm
Nothing wrong with a GED, for that level of education.

The Military requires a BS/BA degree to be commissioned. To be competitive for Field Grade promotions you should have Masters.

Most police agencies today require a AS in criminal justice (or higher) to walk in the door.

While I concur with your thoughts on a High School education, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.


Far too many organizations treat a BA/BS as some kind of magic.


It depends on if you are talking about "Jack in the Box" or your local "police department". An extra large #1 combo is a no brainer. For the PD I got 187 reasons why education is a big plus.   8)

TheTravelingAirman

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 05:59:54 pm

They're not our peers.  They don't know the first thing about organizing an aerial search.  They're just a bunch of posers wearing rank that looks like ours and thinking they're just as good as us at our job. 



The USAF's PJs and their Rescue Squadrons would like a word with you!

SarDragon

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on March 19, 2015, 11:43:18 am
Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 05:59:54 pm

They're not our peers.  They don't know the first thing about organizing an aerial search.  They're just a bunch of posers wearing rank that looks like ours and thinking they're just as good as us at our job. 



The USAF's PJs and their Rescue Squadrons would like a word with you!


I believe that was a bit of turn-about sarcasm.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

PHall

Quote from: SarDragon on March 20, 2015, 03:38:44 am
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on March 19, 2015, 11:43:18 am
Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2015, 05:59:54 pm

They're not our peers.  They don't know the first thing about organizing an aerial search.  They're just a bunch of posers wearing rank that looks like ours and thinking they're just as good as us at our job. 



The USAF's PJs and their Rescue Squadrons would like a word with you!


I believe that was a bit of turn-about sarcasm.


If it was, it was a pretty big stretch...

Майор Хаткевич

Yea...read as sarcasm when posted...

TheTravelingAirman

And the PJ comment was as well. I knew where you were coming from. I guess I'll "/s" for sarcasm as well.