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Ned
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« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2015, 10:20:49 PM »

The question that is still yet to be answered.  What are CAP NCOs going to do and bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by current CAP officers?

We've answered it several times, in several threads in which you participated.

Like this over 900 post thread from late 2013.

Or this 350 + classic from 2010.

(We sure like going in circles on CAPTalk . . .    ;) )

The short version:

Every single military (and military-styled) organization since the Roman legions have employed both officer and NCO positions.  And it's not just the last 2000 years; even in the future Starfleet uses a mixture of officers and NCOs for their leadership.  Indeed, it is breathtaking how consistent this military formula is across the millennia.  There have been dozens of radically different types of governments instituted among mankind.  Churches of dizzying variety and composition.  Business forms ranging from sole proprietorships to mega-corporations.

But military structure has always included both officers and NCOs.  Because NCOs act and lead like NCOs, and officers act and lead like officers.  There roles overlap, but they are decidedly different.  Just ask any of the million or so living veterans.  Perhaps they can explain it better than I. 

Of course, officers can pick up the slack when there are insufficient NCOs; and the reverse is also true.  But the system works better when we all work as a coordinated team.

CAP has had NCOs since Curry, Spaatz, and La Guardia set it up.  I'd like to think they knew what they were doing.  Sure, the program has been tweaked from time to time (just like the CAP officer structure), but there were CAP NCOs when I joined over 40 years ago, and we have them today.

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this last portion is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).






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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2015, 10:28:09 PM »

So...nothing new.

Former cadets, experienced Seniors in CP, can and do those roles. We just want NCOs because..  Why not?
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Ned
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« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2015, 10:43:03 PM »

So...nothing new.

Former cadets, experienced Seniors in CP, can and do those roles. We just want NCOs because..  Why not?

In the sense that CAP is trying to use NCOs to operate efficiently and effectively as militaries have done for thousands of years, then you are absolutely right.  "Nothing new."  Just a lot of very, very good Old Stuff.

Why did you think good NCOs are something new?

And BTW, "former cadets, experienced seniors in CP" are already well represented in the NCO ranks.  Why do you think we don't need more of them?



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lordmonar
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« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2015, 11:26:07 PM »


So, essentially a downgrade.
If the so choose.  Like I did and many others did.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2015, 11:28:45 PM »


Our parent service, our non-military customers, and even our own members just don't look at CAP officers as "real" officers. 
And they NEVER EVER WILL no matter what we do to our system.  Even if we were to only allow former military members to become CAP officers, the real military would still just look upon them as civilian volunteers -- because that is what they would be.  We don't get any credit now for having a significant percentage of our adult members having been in the military and that isn't going to change to matter what system we have. 

We shouldn't worry one second what others think of our internal rank system any more so than the Salvation Army does. 

I agree that our promotion system has some major holes in it (almost entirely having to do with advanced promotions).  And I actually wouldn't have a problem with making EVERYONE (even former military Colonels) that joins CAP start at Airman and work their way up a PD track designed for enlisted persons and then move into an entirely separate track for officers (having NCOs and Officers do the same exact classes to promote is just stupid). 

We have to have a system that gives CAP members the knowledge, skills and abilities that CAP needs.
yep we could keep what we got and survive.   I would like to make it better.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2015, 11:33:11 PM »


The question that is still yet to be answered.  What are CAP NCOs going to do and bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by current CAP officers?
Nothing that we don't already bring to the table.  It does put us in a position to make an enlisted corps and to make being an officer harder and more like an AD officer.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2015, 11:37:39 PM »


So...nothing new.

Former cadets, experienced Seniors in CP, can and do those roles. We just want NCOs because..  Why not?
on one level.   Yes.  Why not?   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2015, 11:47:45 PM »

Quote
But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

I would bet good money that the majority of CAP units have one or two experienced NCOs in them at this very moment.  They're just wearing officer ranks. 
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Ned
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« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2015, 12:01:38 AM »


I would bet good money that the majority of CAP units have one or two experienced NCOs in them at this very moment.  They're just wearing officer ranks.

I'd sure like to think so, but doubt it based just on numbers.  Most cadet units don't have a single vet, let alone two or more.  But rather than quibble about numbers, let me turn it around a bit.

"I would bet good money that the majority of AF units have one or two experienced former NCOs wearing officer rank in them at this very moment."  And yet no on in the AF serious questions the value of having both officer and NCOs in their structure. 

What do you suppose that is?
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arajca
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« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2015, 12:53:35 AM »


I would bet good money that the majority of CAP units have one or two experienced NCOs in them at this very moment.  They're just wearing officer ranks.

I'd sure like to think so, but doubt it based just on numbers.  Most cadet units don't have a single vet, let alone two or more.  But rather than quibble about numbers, let me turn it around a bit.

"I would bet good money that the majority of AF units have one or two experienced former NCOs wearing officer rank in them at this very moment."  And yet no on in the AF serious questions the value of having both officer and NCOs in their structure. 

What do you suppose that is?
Because the the AF (and the rest of the military) has uniquely defined roles for NCOs and Officers. CAP does not. Other than NCOs not being able to command units, nothing has been presented to identify the unique and different role NCOs will play in relation to the role Officers will play.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2015, 01:18:05 AM »

So...nothing new.

Former cadets, experienced Seniors in CP, can and do those roles. We just want NCOs because..  Why not?

In the sense that CAP is trying to use NCOs to operate efficiently and effectively as militaries have done for thousands of years, then you are absolutely right.  "Nothing new."  Just a lot of very, very good Old Stuff.

Why did you think good NCOs are something new?

And BTW, "former cadets, experienced seniors in CP" are already well represented in the NCO ranks.  Why do you think we don't need more of them?

Well represented? There's about 100 NCOs in CAP right now. How many are former cadets, or have 2+ CP experience in CAP? I can bet there are thousands amongst current SM Officers.

And we definitely need more of them.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2015, 01:54:17 AM »

Col Lee  I am well versed on what the services do and importance of the enlisted and officers.  As another poster pointed out the roles are well defined.  As I have mentioned I wear stripes for my day job and bring that to the org where I wear bars. 

We are not the military in anyway shape or form.  As an NCO I am questionin this because I do not see how this is going to improve our org when you have officers such as myself who are NCOs for our day job and Officers for CAP.  How can leadership or proponets for this program expect a very much needed buyin do so without the answees to simple valud questions?

This should have been kept in developement until fully thought out and not piece mealed together like it is. 

Until simple questions and items are defined there will continue to be push back and the stance this is not needed.

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lordmonar
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« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2015, 02:09:39 AM »


I would bet good money that the majority of CAP units have one or two experienced NCOs in them at this very moment.  They're just wearing officer ranks.

I'd sure like to think so, but doubt it based just on numbers.  Most cadet units don't have a single vet, let alone two or more.  But rather than quibble about numbers, let me turn it around a bit.

"I would bet good money that the majority of AF units have one or two experienced former NCOs wearing officer rank in them at this very moment."  And yet no on in the AF serious questions the value of having both officer and NCOs in their structure. 

What do you suppose that is?
Because the the AF (and the rest of the military) has uniquely defined roles for NCOs and Officers. CAP does not. Other than NCOs not being able to command units, nothing has been presented to identify the unique and different role NCOs will play in relation to the role Officers will play.
You are right....and the NCO Committee is working to define those roles.   In the mean time we have created a way for current and future CAP NCO's to promote.

We did not invent CAP NCOs.....they have always been there.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Ned
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« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2015, 02:17:12 AM »

Col Lee  I am well versed on what the services do and importance of the enlisted and officers.  As another poster pointed out the roles are well defined.  As I have mentioned I wear stripes for my day job and bring that to the org where I wear bars. 

We are not the military in anyway shape or form.  As an NCO I am questionin this because I do not see how this is going to improve our org when you have officers such as myself who are NCOs for our day job and Officers for CAP.  How can leadership or proponets for this program expect a very much needed buyin do so without the answees to simple valud questions?

This should have been kept in developement until fully thought out and not piece mealed together like it is. 

Until simple questions and items are defined there will continue to be push back and the stance this is not needed.

I gently suggest that you have this reversed.  There really is nothing new going on that "needs to be kept in development."

To the contrary, we have had NCOs since CAP began.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  All we are doing is tweaking the program to allow non-prior service NCOs to serve, and allow prior service NCOs to be promoted and enjoy career progression unrelated to their day jobs.

And we can debate the fine points of whether CAP is "military," "paramilitary," or something else.  But we probably generally agree that there is a whole lot of military-like stuff going on.  Commanders, uniforms, regulations, uniforms, drill and ceremonies, rank insignia, punishment for insubordination, customs and courtesies, occasional auxiliary status, activities on military facilities, oversight by a military service, and a history of armed service to our nation.

We can discuss semantics until the wee hours (and I'll buy the first round), but this much is real:  CAP has officers and NCOs.  We just need to make full use of our existing structure.
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PHall
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« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2015, 03:16:07 AM »

Col Lee  I am well versed on what the services do and importance of the enlisted and officers.  As another poster pointed out the roles are well defined.  As I have mentioned I wear stripes for my day job and bring that to the org where I wear bars. 

We are not the military in anyway shape or form.  As an NCO I am questionin this because I do not see how this is going to improve our org when you have officers such as myself who are NCOs for our day job and Officers for CAP.  How can leadership or proponets for this program expect a very much needed buyin do so without the answees to simple valud questions?

This should have been kept in developement until fully thought out and not piece mealed together like it is. 

Until simple questions and items are defined there will continue to be push back and the stance this is not needed.

I gently suggest that you have this reversed.  There really is nothing new going on that "needs to be kept in development."

To the contrary, we have had NCOs since CAP began.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  All we are doing is tweaking the program to allow non-prior service NCOs to serve, and allow prior service NCOs to be promoted and enjoy career progression unrelated to their day jobs.

And we can debate the fine points of whether CAP is "military," "paramilitary," or something else.  But we probably generally agree that there is a whole lot of military-like stuff going on.  Commanders, uniforms, regulations, uniforms, drill and ceremonies, rank insignia, punishment for insubordination, customs and courtesies, occasional auxiliary status, activities on military facilities, oversight by a military service, and a history of armed service to our nation.

We can discuss semantics until the wee hours (and I'll buy the first round), but this much is real:  CAP has officers and NCOs.  We just need to make full use of our existing structure.

Ned, there was a couple of us in CAWG that tried to do the NCO thing (you know who we are).
And we both got told that as long as we were NCO's our roles would be limited in CP.
Thus the reason why both of us ended up going back to "officer" grade.
Fix those mostly "Army" attitudes and you might get a few more NCO players.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2015, 03:40:44 AM »

I will bring it up to both the NCO commitee and to the Region commander.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2015, 05:24:15 AM »

This is my take on this whole discussion. As of right now, we don't really have an NCO program. We have a provision for current and former military NCOs to become CAP NCOs, which we've had for a long time. What's new is that now these CAP NCOs can be promoted within CAP. We also have CAP-specific chevrons. Other than that, the NCO structure remains unchanged.

Now, I don't have a problem with expanding the NCO program, to include developing specific NCO PD, defining their specific roles and even providing a way for non-prior service members to become CAP NCOs. I do have a problem with comments such as we're developing a CAP NCO program so "we can make CAP better." How does developing a CAP NCO program make CAP better? That's the question.

The best explanation given by MSgt Harris for expanding the NCO program is the one where most members would join CAP as enlisted, NCOs would train and supervise those members, and officers would command and run other high level staff functions. As such, becoming a CAP officer would be harder. I see merit in that explanation and would actually support that change. Unfortunately, that's not the official program or even vision for developing the CAP NCO corps.

If we're going to promote and expand the CAP NCO program, then we have to define what the NCO role is going to be. There has to be specific training and PD for them. Just saying "an NCO can do any job an officer do" just doesn't cut it. If we're going to have a caste system in CAP, then it has to come with significant benefits. The NCO must fulfill a specific function and so does the officer. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to have this division.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2015, 06:27:25 AM »

This is my take on this whole discussion. As of right now, we don't really have an NCO program. We have a provision for current and former military NCOs to become CAP NCOs, which we've had for a long time. What's new is that now these CAP NCOs can be promoted within CAP. We also have CAP-specific chevrons. Other than that, the NCO structure remains unchanged.

Now, I don't have a problem with expanding the NCO program, to include developing specific NCO PD, defining their specific roles and even providing a way for non-prior service members to become CAP NCOs. I do have a problem with comments such as we're developing a CAP NCO program so "we can make CAP better." How does developing a CAP NCO program make CAP better? That's the question.
Asked and answered.....but I'll try again.

It is too easy to become a Lt Col in CAP.

One of the reasons our parent organization, our customers and our selves....look down on our rank structure is....because it is too easy.  A GED and six months and you are a Lt.

If we (by that I mean CAP Leadership) wish to make becoming an officer harder, and promoting up the Officer ranks more in line with "real" officers......then we need to have an avenue for those who can't or won't make the grade to continue to serve.

Also by creating a traditional officer/enlisted dichotomy...we can actually build our training and our SOPs around that.   Those who have no desire to work at group/wing/region/national level.....can stay enlisted.  They will have PME tailored toward the concept of working in the squadron and getting the job done.   Those who wish and have the back ground and ability to take on the jobs at higher levels......they go the O route...with PME and training specifically tailored around the strategic and outward looking leadership that is more in line with the traditional officer role.

Quote
The best explanation given by MSgt Harris for expanding the NCO program is the one where most members would join CAP as enlisted, NCOs would train and supervise those members, and officers would command and run other high level staff functions. As such, becoming a CAP officer would be harder. I see merit in that explanation and would actually support that change. Unfortunately, that's not the official program or even vision for developing the CAP NCO corps.

Baby steps.   And if you read the NCO white paper that started all this rolling year before last....you will see that building an NCO corps is part and parcel of an attempt to make the officer core better.

Quote
If we're going to promote and expand the CAP NCO program, then we have to define what the NCO role is going to be. There has to be specific training and PD for them. Just saying "an NCO can do any job an officer do" just doesn't cut it. If we're going to have a caste system in CAP, then it has to come with significant benefits. The NCO must fulfill a specific function and so does the officer. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to have this division.
Yes you are right.....and all that is coming.    The job descriptions for the "promotable" jobs are in the works......They were sent to the last CSAG (two weeks ago?)   I expect that there is some more tweaking to be done to them....if not....then they got to get handed over to the 20-1 guys.....to kick out the new reg......and I expect that they have some changes they may want to work on independent of the NCO job descriptions....so we may be delayed even more. 

We have not yet started working on the NCO specific PME.   We have been tasked to start thinking about what we want it to look like, what format are we going to do it, what sort of areas it should cover.    But that is far as that goes.   We are still in PHASE ONE of a three phase frame work....that is expect to take 2-3 years per phase.

As we move forward we will continue to develop the two tiered functions you mentioned.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2015, 01:36:04 PM »

This is my take on this whole discussion. As of right now, we don't really have an NCO program. We have a provision for current and former military NCOs to become CAP NCOs, which we've had for a long time. What's new is that now these CAP NCOs can be promoted within CAP. We also have CAP-specific chevrons. Other than that, the NCO structure remains unchanged.

Now, I don't have a problem with expanding the NCO program, to include developing specific NCO PD, defining their specific roles and even providing a way for non-prior service members to become CAP NCOs. I do have a problem with comments such as we're developing a CAP NCO program so "we can make CAP better." How does developing a CAP NCO program make CAP better? That's the question.
Asked and answered.....but I'll try again.

It is too easy to become a Lt Col in CAP.

One of the reasons our parent organization, our customers and our selves....look down on our rank structure is....because it is too easy.  A GED and six months and you are a Lt.

If we (by that I mean CAP Leadership) wish to make becoming an officer harder, and promoting up the Officer ranks more in line with "real" officers......then we need to have an avenue for those who can't or won't make the grade to continue to serve.

Also by creating a traditional officer/enlisted dichotomy...we can actually build our training and our SOPs around that.   Those who have no desire to work at group/wing/region/national level.....can stay enlisted.  They will have PME tailored toward the concept of working in the squadron and getting the job done.   Those who wish and have the back ground and ability to take on the jobs at higher levels......they go the O route...with PME and training specifically tailored around the strategic and outward looking leadership that is more in line with the traditional officer role.

Yes, you said that already on a previous post. I didn't disagree with your explanation. But there's a small issue, as you stated yourself, this is your opinion and vision and not necessary supported by CAP leadership. There's no official guidance indicating that this is the plan. If it was, we wouldn't be having this particular conversation.

Quote
The best explanation given by MSgt Harris for expanding the NCO program is the one where most members would join CAP as enlisted, NCOs would train and supervise those members, and officers would command and run other high level staff functions. As such, becoming a CAP officer would be harder. I see merit in that explanation and would actually support that change. Unfortunately, that's not the official program or even vision for developing the CAP NCO corps.

Baby steps.   And if you read the NCO white paper that started all this rolling year before last....you will see that building an NCO corps is part and parcel of an attempt to make the officer core better.

A white paper if not official policy or guidance. We don't really know that this is going to happen, as it has not be communicated as such by those who make or clarify policy.

Quote
If we're going to promote and expand the CAP NCO program, then we have to define what the NCO role is going to be. There has to be specific training and PD for them. Just saying "an NCO can do any job an officer do" just doesn't cut it. If we're going to have a caste system in CAP, then it has to come with significant benefits. The NCO must fulfill a specific function and so does the officer. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to have this division.
Yes you are right.....and all that is coming.    The job descriptions for the "promotable" jobs are in the works......They were sent to the last CSAG (two weeks ago?)   I expect that there is some more tweaking to be done to them....if not....then they got to get handed over to the 20-1 guys.....to kick out the new reg......and I expect that they have some changes they may want to work on independent of the NCO job descriptions....so we may be delayed even more.

It may be coming, but it's not out yet. When a member who qualifies for a CAP NCO grade asks me what do NCOs do, I'm forced to respond that pretty much what every other member does... because it's true. Many don't see that as an incentive to joining CAP as NCOs. I had that discussion recently with a retired E-9, who didn't see much incentive to becoming a CAP CMSgt. I was able to persuade him by offering him a Group NCO Advisor position. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to define what the role will really be... and I shouldn't have to.

We have not yet started working on the NCO specific PME.   We have been tasked to start thinking about what we want it to look like, what format are we going to do it, what sort of areas it should cover.    But that is far as that goes.   We are still in PHASE ONE of a three phase frame work....that is expect to take 2-3 years per phase.

As we move forward we will continue to develop the two tiered functions you mentioned.

And that is part of the problem. Now NCOs have a way to get promoted, but their PD and training is exactly the same as for their officer counterpart. And on top of that, they get to do the exact same staff jobs and to hold the exact same qualifications. In the Air Force, you wouldn't have a SSgt serve as incident commander, but that's possible in CAP. Will that change with the current "plan"? What about section chiefs and branch directors? Or deputy commanders and operations officers? All officer-equivalent functions in the Air Force.

If we're going to have Airmen, NCOs and officers, then their roles must be defined. An NCO should not be able to do what an officer do and vice versa. Otherwise, what's the point? I understand your position. These are baby steps in the right direction. There's a plan in the works. That's the vision for a future CAP. Etc., etc. etc... But officially, we just got a way for NCOs to get promoted, a set of new stripes and some NCOs in key positions pushing down a programs that doesn't exist yet. And this is being "sold" as a way to make CAP "better".

Improving the overall training and PD program would make CAP better. Increasing promotion requirements for officers may make CAP better, but only if grade is linked with specific authority and responsibilities. Ensuring minimum staffing qualifications could make CAP better. Having CAP NCOs? It's no different than having prior service officer. Without the whole program, the pieces we have don't make much of a difference or impact, at least not yet.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #99 on: March 13, 2015, 01:44:37 PM »

Not yet.   That is the key.   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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