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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO
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lordmonar
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2015, 06:13:18 PM »

I think this question should be put to the current CCMSgt of CAP.
What question?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2015, 06:54:41 PM »

The question I asked has been answered to my satisfaction!
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
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IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2015, 05:30:02 AM »

Herbie,

Recommend that you mod your signature to reflect that eServices is showing you as SSgt vice TSGT, and that you are not qualified as an IC2 as you state.

That has to be the most interesting "official" pic I've seen on a 101 card, as well.

R/S,
Spam

No kidding. Whoever approved that photo needs to re-read the module requirements.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2015, 07:12:33 AM »

Regarding the IC2, the added (SW) might have been a clue that it wasn't a CAP thing.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2015, 07:21:22 AM »

Regarding the IC2, the added (SW) might have been a clue that it wasn't a CAP thing.

Sure, but he's added the surface warfare designator since the comment. It used to just read IC 2.  I was curious since he's a CDC in my AO, so I looked him up, and... frowned. Blame me?

Fixed now, case closed.

V/R,
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abdsp51
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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2015, 09:52:34 AM »

I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
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Storm Chaser
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NCO
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2015, 10:55:26 AM »

So, I'm supposed to appoint an NCO Advisor, but there's not duty description of what this NCO would do. There's also no such position in eServices. Even if I appoint him or her with a CAPF 2A or PA and make up some duty description, there's no real guidance from above. What is he or she going to advise me on?

I keep hearing that the NCO Committee is working on it, but if the program is not yet fully developed, then why implement it partially? It seems to me that the way this was implemented was kind of a solution in search for a problem. If there's a need for NCOs, then let's identify the need first. Let's figure out what these NCOs would do that's different from what other CAP officers do. Let's figure out what training they would need to prepare them for those roles. Then we can figure out how to promote them.

I'm not oppose to an NCO corps. But I do question the way we're going about it and if there's truly value added. I guess time will tell.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2015, 04:09:40 PM »

I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »

So, I'm supposed to appoint an NCO Advisor, but there's not duty description of what this NCO would do. There's also no such position in eServices. Even if I appoint him or her with a CAPF 2A or PA and make up some duty description, there's no real guidance from above. What is he or she going to advise me on?

I keep hearing that the NCO Committee is working on it, but if the program is not yet fully developed, then why implement it partially? It seems to me that the way this was implemented was kind of a solution in search for a problem. If there's a need for NCOs, then let's identify the need first. Let's figure out what these NCOs would do that's different from what other CAP officers do. Let's figure out what training they would need to prepare them for those roles. Then we can figure out how to promote them.

I'm not oppose to an NCO corps. But I do question the way we're going about it and if there's truly value added. I guess time will tell.
We are working on it...I'm on the committee so you can take that as gospel.   We are not implementing it partially.   We are slowly expanding the old program that has existed for years and years.   As far as I know...no commanders have been officially instructed to appoint anyone to any positions.....because we are still working on the duty descriptions and getting E-Service up and running.   That does not mean you can't lean forward and start encouraging you new members who qualify to go the NCO route or your old members to cross over.   NCOs can be appointed to any position in your chain except command slots.   The "special" slots are just for the promotable positions.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Storm Chaser
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« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2015, 04:50:40 PM »


I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)

Deputy Commanders assume command of the unit in the Commander's absence. Hence, if NCOs can't be Commanders, then they shouldn't be Deputy Commanders either.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2015, 04:54:18 PM »

So, I'm supposed to appoint an NCO Advisor, but there's not duty description of what this NCO would do. There's also no such position in eServices. Even if I appoint him or her with a CAPF 2A or PA and make up some duty description, there's no real guidance from above. What is he or she going to advise me on?

I keep hearing that the NCO Committee is working on it, but if the program is not yet fully developed, then why implement it partially? It seems to me that the way this was implemented was kind of a solution in search for a problem. If there's a need for NCOs, then let's identify the need first. Let's figure out what these NCOs would do that's different from what other CAP officers do. Let's figure out what training they would need to prepare them for those roles. Then we can figure out how to promote them.

I'm not oppose to an NCO corps. But I do question the way we're going about it and if there's truly value added. I guess time will tell.
We are working on it...I'm on the committee so you can take that as gospel.   We are not implementing it partially.   We are slowly expanding the old program that has existed for years and years.

Yet, a regulation was published with duty positions required for certain promotions, but without the duty position descriptions or the capability of assigning them in eServices.

NCOs can be appointed to any position in your chain except command slots.

If NCOs can do practically any job that an officer can do, then what's the purpose of having NCOs?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2015, 04:55:00 PM »


I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)

Deputy Commanders assume command of the unit in the Commander's absence. Hence, if NCOs can't be Commanders, then they shouldn't be Deputy Commanders either.
Not true.
Sorry, not supported by regulations.  Not supported by practice.

Now....if you as a commander don't want to appoint an NCO to that position....that's your choice.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2015, 04:56:01 PM »

If NCOs can do practically any job that an officer can do, then what's the purpose of having NCOs?
So we can make CAP better.

That's the long and the short of it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2015, 05:03:50 PM »

Yet, a regulation was published with duty positions required for certain promotions, but without the duty position descriptions or the capability of assigning them in eServices.

Yep....when we finished that part of it....we sent it out...slowly expanding.   When we get the duty positions ready we'll send those out......slowly expanding.   

Why all the heart burn?

Is it causing you some problems at the squadron level?   Losing missions?   Makes getting ES done harder?   Adding extra work to your admin people?

It is easy to build the frame work.  It is the details that are hard. We could have pushed out the duty positions on the same day we pushed out the promotion reg changes.  They would not have been right....but they would have been in E-services.   We want to take this in stride.  We want to make sure we are doing it right.  So....please be patient.   If you have any questions you can ask your region representative on the NCO committee.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2015, 05:22:34 PM »

Well, lets go to the source of position descriptions and see...

CAPR 20-1 2 JANUARY 2013
p.27
"Group Commander
Group commanders represent the wing commander in their group. They are responsible to the Corporation and the wing commander for ensuring that corporation objectives, policies, and operational directives are effectively executed within their group. They shall:
Exercise command over all units in their group.... NOTE: The duties above also apply to the deputy group commander. Group commanders should develop a detailed position description for their deputy, outlining his/her specific duties and responsibilities in support of the overall group mission".

p.28
"Squadron Commander
Squadron commanders are responsible to the corporation and to the wing commander (or group commander if applicable) for ensuring that the corporation objectives, policies, and operational directives are effectively executed within their squadron. They shall:... [list of functions]
NOTE: The duties above also apply to the deputy squadron commander. Squadron commanders should develop a detailed position description for their deputy, outlining his/her specific duties and responsibilities in support of the overall squadron mission".


Chaser to my read, you appear correct, and I'd agree this as "supported by regulations" and practice. My read of that is, the "Exercise command" function coupled with the notation is that a Deputy Commander absolutely does hold command functions. My experience is that in practice, CDCs speak for and execute command functions the Commander in the absence of the Commander.  I have no opinion on fencing off command from NCOs, though.


Lord, to respectfully suggest to the NCO committee:
In my next command I would absolutely treasure another experienced professional NCO, and I can think of at least two or three cadet-related duties to add to an NCO PD:  serve as command fitness advisor, and serve as customs and courtesies/D&C advisor. In my last Sqdn. level command, I had one member who only drilled once a month on PT night, it was his "thing" and with his background he was outstanding and inspirational at it, with nutrition and fitness classes, games and exercises, and administration of the CPFT. I've also valued the expertise of retired NCOs in providing continuity in a training context as leadership officers (specifically with Phase I and II direct leadership topics) and as supply NCOs who understand using the "NCO network" to get what a unit needs. The plain vanilla words "assist the Commander" just don't cover the vitality a good NCO brings to a CAP unit, so I'd suggest some degree of amplification in whatever PDs y'all write up, to ensure best practices are captured (and any border line LGS dog-robbing is inhibited)!


R/S,
Spam

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arajca
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« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2015, 06:06:13 PM »

If NCOs can do practically any job that an officer can do, then what's the purpose of having NCOs?
So we can make CAP better.

That's the long and the short of it.
How exactly? I keep hearing about the benefits of military and ex-military NCOs in CAP as the keeper of traditions, NCO support chain, D&C experts, etc., but what about the non-military NCOs, when those are allowed? They will be coming in with the same level of knowledge, generally speaking, as those coming in as officers. How will they become the keeper of traditions and D&C experts? And why can't officers be the keepers of tradition and D&C experts?
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abdsp51
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« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2015, 06:49:03 PM »

I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)

They are part of the command team and the term commander is used in the title of the duty position so ergo NCOs as worded in the regulation can not be Deputy Commanders either.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2015, 06:58:32 PM »

I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)

They are part of the command team and the term commander is used in the title of the duty position so ergo NCOs as worded in the regulation can not be Deputy Commanders either.


Why you gotta go unbend the mind gymnastics?
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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2015, 07:17:58 PM »

If NCOs can do practically any job that an officer can do, then what's the purpose of having NCOs?
So we can make CAP better.

That's the long and the short of it.
How exactly? I keep hearing about the benefits of military and ex-military NCOs in CAP as the keeper of traditions, NCO support chain, D&C experts, etc., but what about the non-military NCOs, when those are allowed? They will be coming in with the same level of knowledge, generally speaking, as those coming in as officers. How will they become the keeper of traditions and D&C experts? And why can't officers be the keepers of tradition and D&C experts?

Valid point. Totally forgot they're considering CAP-grown "NCOs". Thought we were only updating/recognizing real NCOs, not posers.


If I see stripes and rockers, I think "Pro NCO" and am inclined to give him/her the benefit of the doubt and to pay more attention, as I do with guys wearing service wings, ribbons or decorations. If we were to begin frocking CAP senior NCOs with no prior service as professional noncoms, my respect for and use of CAP NCOs as a group would go off a cliff. 


Still in support of tech expert SME NCOs - as long as they're "real" NCOs. Don't care if we call them Commanders or NCOICs or HMFWICs if in a leadership role.


V/R,
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LSThiker
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« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2015, 07:26:50 PM »

If we were to begin frocking CAP senior NCOs with no prior service as professional noncoms, my respect for and use of CAP NCOs as a group would go off a cliff. 

Still in support of tech expert SME NCOs - as long as they're "real" NCOs. Don't care if we call them Commanders or NCOICs or HMFWICs if in a leadership role.

But it is okay to insert "poser officers" in with "real officers"?

You do realize that for years CAP had NCOs that were "posers" right?
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO
 


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