May 28, 2020, 09:16:40 pm

NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 pm

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pantera3110

Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 12:55:37 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 09, 2015, 11:55:59 pm
Quote from: lordmonar on March 09, 2015, 11:23:47 pm
Quote from: NCRblues on March 09, 2015, 10:40:30 pm
Ok, I'll ask it.

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)
No one is in any rush.   The promotable NCO positions are not a must have.   We understand you are confused.....we are still working on the job discriptions and duty positions.  Please be patient.


Is there a time frame of future regs and understandings of the new NCO structure. Because right now its tough, I am asking group and wing leaders and no one can answer my questions?

Thanks
They can't answer you questions because then answers have not been hammered out.   Is there a time frame?  As Soon As Possible.   The NCO committee meets every month or so.   We make tweeks...they get sent up...feedback come down....rinse, repeat.

It is going to take time.


Thank you very much for telling me this!! this will help kind of cool the burners a bit!! All i am trying to do is collect as much info and pass it along as it comes!!

Thanks again, :) :) :)
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

abdsp51

Unless you were an E7 you can not be appointed as one.  You must promote to it by fulfilling the requirements which have been outlined already as 2 years time grade as a TSgt and completion of Level III. 

lordmonar

Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2015, 12:25:03 am
So when can I trade my oak leaves for 5 stripes?
I did.   Trade in my Major Leaves (and staring down Lt Col's neck) for my MSgt stripes.

We are also working on a chart that would credit CAP time/promotions to be be added to your military rank.   (i.e. Former SSgt...now a Level V Lt Col.....would not have to go all the way back to SSgt if they wanted to cross over.)  We are still working on the details....expect something formal soon.   BTW....this idea come from someone in the field....:) higher HQ types do listen to those working the streets.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

pantera3110

Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:00:47 am
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2015, 12:25:03 am
So when can I trade my oak leaves for 5 stripes?
I did.   Trade in my Major Leaves (and staring down Lt Col's neck) for my MSgt stripes.

We are also working on a chart that would credit CAP time/promotions to be be added to your military rank.   (i.e. Former SSgt...now a Level V Lt Col.....would not have to go all the way back to SSgt if they wanted to cross over.)  We are still working on the details....expect something formal soon.   BTW....this idea come from someone in the field....:) higher HQ types do listen to those working the streets.


Is there a CAP website to track for any possible new stuff for NCO ranks and how its all going to work? or just wait for newsletters or word of mouth as it comes?
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

lordmonar

Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:44:26 am
I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?


Okay....here's how you do it.

Your Squadron commander puts together a 2a promotion package asking for advance promotion based on need and your exceptional qualification.  It get sent up the chain to the regional commander.

I will tell you right now.   

PD and TIG are not going to be waived for a squadron level NCO.  Not when we got TSgt and MSgt filling CMSgt NCO slots.

I will not say you shouldn't apply.....I will say that your best bet is go do your two years as a TSgt, get your Level III and then go through the "normal" promotion process.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 01:06:03 am
Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:00:47 am
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2015, 12:25:03 am
So when can I trade my oak leaves for 5 stripes?
I did.   Trade in my Major Leaves (and staring down Lt Col's neck) for my MSgt stripes.

We are also working on a chart that would credit CAP time/promotions to be be added to your military rank.   (i.e. Former SSgt...now a Level V Lt Col.....would not have to go all the way back to SSgt if they wanted to cross over.)  We are still working on the details....expect something formal soon.   BTW....this idea come from someone in the field....:) higher HQ types do listen to those working the streets.


Is there a CAP website to track for any possible new stuff for NCO ranks and how its all going to work? or just wait for newsletters or word of mouth as it comes?
No there is not....but now that you suggest it....I will bring it up at the next meeting.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

pantera3110

Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:10:37 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:44:26 am
I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?


Okay....here's how you do it.

Your Squadron commander puts together a 2a promotion package asking for advance promotion based on need and your exceptional qualification.  It get sent up the chain to the regional commander.

I will tell you right now.   

PD and TIG are not going to be waived for a squadron level NCO.  Not when we got TSgt and MSgt filling CMSgt NCO slots.

I will not say you shouldn't apply.....I will say that your best bet is go do your two years as a TSgt, get your Level III and then go through the "normal" promotion process.


Thank you for the answer, that is what I am looking for.

so when I do the 2a promotion, do we put in the remark section appoint to MSGT for purpose of filling Squadron NCO position?
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

pantera3110

Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:15:30 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 01:06:03 am
Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:00:47 am
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2015, 12:25:03 am
So when can I trade my oak leaves for 5 stripes?
I did.   Trade in my Major Leaves (and staring down Lt Col's neck) for my MSgt stripes.

We are also working on a chart that would credit CAP time/promotions to be be added to your military rank.   (i.e. Former SSgt...now a Level V Lt Col.....would not have to go all the way back to SSgt if they wanted to cross over.)  We are still working on the details....expect something formal soon.   BTW....this idea come from someone in the field....:) higher HQ types do listen to those working the streets.


Is there a CAP website to track for any possible new stuff for NCO ranks and how its all going to work? or just wait for newsletters or word of mouth as it comes?
No there is not....but now that you suggest it....I will bring it up at the next meeting.


Awesome  :) :) :)

I really appreciate all the help and trying to understand this new system and how it works. Thanks again
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

lordmonar

Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 01:18:10 am
Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:10:37 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:44:26 am
I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?


Okay....here's how you do it.

Your Squadron commander puts together a 2a promotion package asking for advance promotion based on need and your exceptional qualification.  It get sent up the chain to the regional commander.

I will tell you right now.   

PD and TIG are not going to be waived for a squadron level NCO.  Not when we got TSgt and MSgt filling CMSgt NCO slots.

I will not say you shouldn't apply.....I will say that your best bet is go do your two years as a TSgt, get your Level III and then go through the "normal" promotion process.


Thank you for the answer, that is what I am looking for.

so when I do the 2a promotion, do we put in the remark section appoint to MSGT for purpose of filling Squadron NCO position?
More or less....yes.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

pantera3110

Thank you so much for helping get a clearer picture on how to proceed with this.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you and your other NCO's for putting this all together for us!!
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

PHall

Pat, it's Region Commander, not Regional Commander... >:D

JC004

Quote from: JeffDG on March 10, 2015, 12:48:59 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:44:26 am
Quote from: JeffDG on March 10, 2015, 12:34:19 am
I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt.  You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt.  He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.



I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?


There is no "position" of MSgt.   There is a position of "Squadron/Flight NCO", the holder of which is authorized a promotion up to MSgt if all other requirements are met.  Lower grades can serve in the position.

Also, there is no option for "meritorious" promotions in the NCO program.  "Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are nonwaiverable." (CAPR 35-5, 6-3)


Yeah....if someone wants a special promotion, go for something lower - like Lt Col.  No special MSgts...

I am thoroughly confused by the NCO thing.  And for all the years I've been offering NCO grade to military NCOs joining CAP, nobody has ever taken me up on the offer.  I have one prospective AF MSgt right now, but he said he wasn't sure he'd want to be an NCO in CAP.

catrulz

Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 01:18:10 am
Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2015, 01:10:37 am
Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:44:26 am
I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?


Okay....here's how you do it.

Your Squadron commander puts together a 2a promotion package asking for advance promotion based on need and your exceptional qualification.  It get sent up the chain to the regional commander.

I will tell you right now.   

PD and TIG are not going to be waived for a squadron level NCO.  Not when we got TSgt and MSgt filling CMSgt NCO slots.

I will not say you shouldn't apply.....I will say that your best bet is go do your two years as a TSgt, get your Level III and then go through the "normal" promotion process.


Thank you for the answer, that is what I am looking for.

so when I do the 2a promotion, do we put in the remark section appoint to MSGT for purpose of filling Squadron NCO position?


Slight correction, promotions are done on CAPF 2, not 2a.  By the way, the current CAPR 35-5 is not fuzzy at all as concerns NCO appointments and promotions.  Chapter 1 and Chapter 6 of the regulation answer this question thoroughly.  Also, your personnel officer should understand this procedure and policy.  You might want to talk to them.

By the way, Lordmonar, I'm in the same situation, close to being Level V, major close to Lt Col.  Considering turning it all in for stripes.   I think we send our cadets a poor message as we rush them to Mitchell, and then have c/2nd LTs acting as element leaders, and our SM cadre are officers.  This makes the cadets and many of the SM participants look down their nose and devalue enlisted personnel.  Anyone who has crapped in a latrine knows NCO's run the military (I don't mean they set policy, officers do that, but that policy could not be implemented without NCO's).

Veteran NCOs would be excellent at teaching both cadets and SM/CAP officers, the principles of direct leadership.  Squadron Commanders (Group, Wing commanders) are practicing organizational leadership.  Wing Commanders and above are practicing strategic leadership.  CAP tends to do better at the Organizational and Strategic leadership than it does direct leadership.  But the direct leadership level is where "everything" is accomplished.

Garibaldi

Quote from: pantera3110 on March 10, 2015, 12:27:50 am
you actually can trade them in!! Just give a copy of dd-214 and request a change in grade to NCO!!


Only trouble with that is...I was never an NCO in the military. Oh well.
You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.

arajca

March 10, 2015, 01:58:41 pm #34 Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 05:24:15 pm by arajca
Quote from: catrulz on March 10, 2015, 11:38:31 amAnyone who has crapped in a latrine knows NCO's run the military (I don't mean they set policy, officers do that, but that policy could not be implemented without NCO's).


Please do not try to compare the NCO/Officer relationship in CAP with the NCO/Officer relationship in the military. The military has very defined roles for each that CAP does not have. If CAP does define the roles clearly with a similar "Thou Shalt Not Cross" line between them, what happens when you have a unit that is short NCOs to fill an NCO job? Demote an Officer? Leave the job unfilled? Put an Officer in the job? How will that hit on an SUI? What about the other way around? Since NCOs cannot command a unit, what happens when unit with only 1 officer as commander finishes his term? Force an NCO to become an officer? Bring in an outsider? Extend the commander's term? Shut down the unit?

For those who will say the military does cross NCO and Officer jobs, those are generally few and far between and usually are temporary until the proper graded personnel can be assigned.

For the record, I am an Army veteran, so I have some passing familiarity with NCOs in the military.

Spam

Herbie,

Recommend that you mod your signature to reflect that eServices is showing you as SSgt vice TSGT, and that you are not qualified as an IC2 as you state.

That has to be the most interesting "official" pic I've seen on a 101 card, as well.

R/S,
Spam

pantera3110

IC2(interior Communications Electrician) was my rank in the Navy. Not the IC (incident Commander) in CAP. They approved my pic and hey it works  :) :) :) my rank to TSGT is in progress. Papers are in and signed. But just to play it safe i will revert back to it for now!
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

Spam

Got it - thanks for serving!

V/R,
Spam

pantera3110

thank you for checking and asking!!
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)

MSG Mac

I think this question should be put to the current CCMSgt of CAP.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member