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pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

NCO
« on: March 09, 2015, 11:26:08 AM »

Good morning Everyone!!

I have been in CAP off and on since 1992. A former Cadet and Senior member. Now I have rejoined and I am now a TSGT in CAP. Just finished LVL 2 and continuing on to LVL 3. My question is:

Does anyone know how to be appointed/promoted to Squadron MSGT? according to the REGS as a TSGT I can be appointed to the rank and Title of MSGT. But the regs are very vague and E-Services does not seem to support NCO rank promotions.

Any help on this will be appreciated.

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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
catrulz
Member

Posts: 83
Unit: MO

« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2015, 11:49:52 AM »

Good morning Everyone!!

I have been in CAP off and on since 1992. A former Cadet and Senior member. Now I have rejoined and I am now a TSGT in CAP. Just finished LVL 2 and continuing on to LVL 3. My question is:

Does anyone know how to be appointed/promoted to Squadron MSGT? according to the REGS as a TSGT I can be appointed to the rank and Title of MSGT. But the regs are very vague and E-Services does not seem to support NCO rank promotions.

Any help on this will be appreciated.

CAPR 35-5 - Para 6-3  Must complete level 3, and have 24 months TIG as TSgt.  Would be submitted on a CAPF 2, and requires Wing Commander approval.   Figure 1 on page 6 shows the promoting authority for each grade.

Hope this helps.
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pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2015, 06:30:23 PM »

Thanks for the response!

That I know but there is a section where being a TSGT I can be appointed up one grade to fill the slot as Squadron MSGT.

Quote
(2) If a vacancy exists, the member selected for that position will be promoted to the
rank commensurate with that position. Under no circumstances will a member be promoted
more than one grade to fulfill a vacant position (e.g. a CAP SSgt will not be promoted to CAP
MSgt for the purpose of filling a vacancy).

Actually TIG for NCO is different. I skipped SM and was promoted straight to SSGT as that was my equivalent rank. so 6 months as SSGT and 1 yr as TSGT. Because this states:

Quote
- Tenure for MSgt is 2 years; tenure for SMSgt is 3 years.

Quote
Promotion to Minimum Skill Level Time-in-Grade

 SSgt Level I 6 Months (SM)
TSgt (Level II) 12 Months
MSgt (Level III) 24 Months
SMSgt Level IV 36 Months
CMSgt Level V 48 Months

This is also interesting:

Quote
Figure 7. Professional Development Skill Level and Time-in-Grade Requirements for NCO
Promotions (Note: See CAPR 50-17 for minimum skill levels in the PD program.)

What is minimum requirements for level 2 and 3? vs completing Level 2 and 3?

Thanks for any help!!

I wish the regs for this was easier and more understandable.
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
NCRblues
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,477
Unit: lostiguess

« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2015, 06:40:30 PM »

Ok, I'll ask it.

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)
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In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC
pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2015, 06:47:52 PM »

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 10,584

« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2015, 07:23:47 PM »

Ok, I'll ask it.

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)
No one is in any rush.   The promotable NCO positions are not a must have.   We understand you are confused.....we are still working on the job discriptions and duty positions.  Please be patiant.   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
NCRblues
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,477
Unit: lostiguess

« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2015, 07:37:10 PM »

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!

I am not trying to be rude, but the following may come across as such.

Keep order? You and me both know this is at best a joke, at worst an insult to the hard working volunteer senior and cadet members. Units have done just fine without an "NCO enforcer" for years and years and years.

Let me ask you a question, as one former NCO to another. Every single person in  that unit "out ranks" you. The newest 2nd LT in fresh off of level one, if we are now saying grade matters (which IMHO that is what NHQ is saying) let alone those 50 year light birds. So, why suddenly do we NEED an NCO in each unit? There is no enlisted corps, no airman to supervise, no one to be an NCO to.

Every veteran and current service member knows that those senior NCO's on active duty gain and hold respect because they have to. They have to be good at what they do, but in cap, NCO's are just checking the boxes like everyone else. Am I, as a field grade officer now supposed to need an E-8 or E-9 by my side at all times? Have I lost the ability to be (insert duty title here) because I don't have someone in stripes next to me? Am I expected to give a CAP E-9 who has no prior service and only put on stripes in CAP the same respect I give that 30 year AF, USA, USMC,USN E-9?

I am not sure how this is going to work out... I see many issues but no answers.

Not judging any one person, just don't understand the direction that CAP NHQ is taking.
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In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 10,584

« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 07:40:50 PM »

Got to have the NCOs in place...before you on board the airman.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 07:51:12 PM »

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!

I am not trying to be rude, but the following may come across as such.

Keep order? You and me both know this is at best a joke, at worst an insult to the hard working volunteer senior and cadet members. Units have done just fine without an "NCO enforcer" for years and years and years.

Let me ask you a question, as one former NCO to another. Every single person in  that unit "out ranks" you. The newest 2nd LT in fresh off of level one, if we are now saying grade matters (which IMHO that is what NHQ is saying) let alone those 50 year light birds. So, why suddenly do we NEED an NCO in each unit? There is no enlisted corps, no airman to supervise, no one to be an NCO to.

Every veteran and current service member knows that those senior NCO's on active duty gain and hold respect because they have to. They have to be good at what they do, but in cap, NCO's are just checking the boxes like everyone else. Am I, as a field grade officer now supposed to need an E-8 or E-9 by my side at all times? Have I lost the ability to be (insert duty title here) because I don't have someone in stripes next to me? Am I expected to give a CAP E-9 who has no prior service and only put on stripes in CAP the same respect I give that 30 year AF, USA, USMC,USN E-9?

I am not sure how this is going to work out... I see many issues but no answers.

Not judging any one person, just don't understand the direction that CAP NHQ is taking.


I understand where you are coming from. As far as "Order" goes, I was not using it in the sense of the word, but to help and keep the squadron going. I know most people in CAP are not military. But having an NCO rank gives people who do not want to be "officers". I know many NCO's who do not want to be "officers", but this also gives people who served a rank they know and are proud of wearing. As far as being outranked, that does not really apply to a volunteer organization. Ranks in CAP are achievements to what you accomplished. With that the respect of that rank you earn goes with it.

I agree CAP does not need an NCO enforcer, that could just go wrong quickly and dry up a squadron real quickly. I see NCO's as managerial positions, they take the load off officers and commanders and deal with things on a different level.

As far as being the low man on the totem pole, I am the DCC, Safety officer, Leadership officer, and other jobs as needed. I am doing them as I am the most qualified in my squadron to hold them. Rank does not really matter.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 08:14:07 PM by pantera3110 » Logged
Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
The14th
Forum Regular

Posts: 102
Unit: SWR-TX-403

American Battle Museum
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 07:52:43 PM »

Same job, different uniform. I don't really see the need, but hey...maybe there will be one eventually?
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pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2015, 07:55:59 PM »

Ok, I'll ask it.

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)
No one is in any rush.   The promotable NCO positions are not a must have.   We understand you are confused.....we are still working on the job discriptions and duty positions.  Please be patiant.

Is there a time frame of future regs and understandings of the new NCO structure. Because right now its tough, I am asking group and wing leaders and no one can answer my questions?

Thanks
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,120

« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2015, 07:59:34 PM »

It is worth noting at this point that any CAP NCO would "outrank" most of the membership.  Starting with our terrific cadets, who represent something like 40%, and then add in the significant number of SMs without grade, CSMs, etc.

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pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2015, 08:09:04 PM »

Same job, different uniform. I don't really see the need, but hey...maybe there will be one eventually?

I think its more preference than need at the moment. As for me its a personal choice to be an NCO rank vs Officer rank.
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
Garibaldi
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,327
Unit: SER-GA-045

Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2015, 08:25:03 PM »

So when can I trade my oak leaves for 5 stripes?
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2015, 08:27:50 PM »

you actually can trade them in!! Just give a copy of dd-214 and request a change in grade to NCO!!
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,157

« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 08:34:19 PM »

I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt.  You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt.  He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.
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pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 08:44:26 PM »

I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt.  You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt.  He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.


I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board? 
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,157

« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2015, 08:48:59 PM »

I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt.  You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt.  He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.


I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?

There is no "position" of MSgt.   There is a position of "Squadron/Flight NCO", the holder of which is authorized a promotion up to MSgt if all other requirements are met.  Lower grades can serve in the position.

Also, there is no option for "meritorious" promotions in the NCO program.  "Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are nonwaiverable." (CAPR 35-5, 6-3)
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,584

« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 08:55:37 PM »

Ok, I'll ask it.

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)
No one is in any rush.   The promotable NCO positions are not a must have.   We understand you are confused.....we are still working on the job discriptions and duty positions.  Please be patient.

Is there a time frame of future regs and understandings of the new NCO structure. Because right now its tough, I am asking group and wing leaders and no one can answer my questions?

Thanks
They can't answer you questions because then answers have not been hammered out.   Is there a time frame?  As Soon As Possible.   The NCO committee meets every month or so.   We make tweeks...they get sent up...feedback come down....rinse, repeat.

It is going to take time.   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
pantera3110
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GA-506

« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2015, 08:56:39 PM »

I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt.  You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt.  He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.


I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first  :) :) :)  but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?

There is no "position" of MSgt.   There is a position of "Squadron/Flight NCO", the holder of which is authorized a promotion up to MSgt if all other requirements are met.  Lower grades can serve in the position.

Also, there is no option for "meritorious" promotions in the NCO program.  "Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are nonwaiverable." (CAPR 35-5, 6-3)

Thank you!! That is the answer I think I am looking for. Just looking for clarity on the whole subject.

Thanks again for your input on the matter. This is a subject that needs more clarity on who and what is to happen in the NCO fields.
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Herbie Evans, SSGT  CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
IC 2 (SW) and CTR 2 (SW)
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