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Author Topic: "...up to Lt. Col....." Insulting and discriminatory  (Read 17403 times)
oldrugged
Recruit

Posts: 9

« on: April 13, 2007, 05:55:07 PM »

Isn't it time to change the CAP policy which accepts military grades only up to Lt Col? 

I believe that the CAP should either make everyone start at the 0-1 grade and work his / her way up through the CAP ranks, or accept all military grades at their earned grade, whatever that may be (01-011).  The reasons I've been given for this discriminatory policy boggle the imagination in their ascininity. 

Maxwell contacts said there are already too many colonels in the CAP!!  So be it.  Perhaps there are too many in the military, but what does that have to do with a consistent policy rather than a  policy which discriminates and insults our most senior officers who have earned the grade in the real military. 

Another reason I was given by the TX Wing Director is that the job (billet) must be tied to a grade.  I have also read the threads here that are of the opinion that the grade should fit the job.  Why does this opinion apply only to the 0-6 grades and above at a Wing and National level in the CAP?  I have seen squadron commanders from 0-3 to 0-5, with more senior officers within their command.  I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing I do as a squadron medical officer that warrants the grade of 0-5.  The real military deals with more junior grades in command positions having personnel of more senior grade, and they do fine.  Is the CAP more complex?  I have been in one command (The National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, MD) when it had an 0-7 serving under an 0-6 C.O. 

Even the rationales given for having this policy are discriminatory, and apply only to state and national positions within the CAP.  The do not apply at all to lower positions.  So much for the billet / grade rationale.  Their only constant is inconsistency. 

The senior wing and national personnel in command positions should remember that most in the CAP are VOLUNTEERS who join because they want to contribute by flying within the mission of the CAP, work with cadet education, and have FUN doing them.  For example, on my own, I have made up talks on a wide variety of medicaly-related issues at the cadet level, and have distributed them to squadrons nationally on request.  I have been invited to give the talks to other squadrons myself.  I have had an interest in the CAP since my cadet years in OK in high school.  But, I am disappointed by the politicalization of the organization today, and insulted by its discrimination against senior military officers who join.  It isn't like the CAP is going to Iraq to fight and requires a tight command structure for a wartime environment.  I stay in because of my interest in the cadets.  I have no interest in competing for wing or national positions.  The interest in the youth extends to my being on the admissions committee for my medical school, and being on my local congressman's Service Academy Nominating Committee.

Just for the record, because one senior official questioned how I obtained the 0-6 grade, I have held every officer grade from 0-1 to 0-6 through a combination of USNR, active regular USN, and USAFR service since 1967.  I also completed the Air War College like any other USAF officer who is being considered for 0-6.  How did I get the 0-6 grade?  I earned it, and was appointed by an officer selection board like everyone else!

David A. Cross, M.D.
Senior Staff, Anesthesiology
Scott and White Memorial Hospital and Clinic
Temple, TX
Associate Professor, Anesthesiology
TX A&M Health Sciences University
Col USAFR MC (ret)
Col Texas State Guard, Texas Medical Brigade
Lt Col CAP
Squadron Medical Officer, Bell County, Texas Composite Squadron, Temple, TX
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TankerT
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007, 06:28:30 PM »

Well.  I see a few problems here.

1 - There is no way that CAP could allow a General to be a CAP General.  CAP isn't authorized by the USAF.  And, until a few years ago (taking the one prior blip out of the picture) we didn't have anything over Brigadier General.

2- The explanations given to you are not exactly correct.  Grade isn't tied with billets.  (We actually don't have "billets" like the military does.)  Grade is tied to the scope where a person lies in the corporation.  (Remember, we're a corporation.  Not the military.)  Grade of Colonel and above are reserved for Corporate officers.  Not Commissioned Officers.  Everyone else  can be an officer up to Lt Col, regardless of their position.

3- In actuality, your claim of discrimination wouldn't actually meet the true or legal definition of discrimination.  The grade structure is enforced across the board, with no regard to sex, race, education, etc.  Every officer is allowed to hold a CAP grade equivalent to their military grade up to Lt Col.  It is presented plainly before joining.

4- Yes, the organization has some distasteful political issues at the top.  But, so does any other organization this size.  (Heck, even smaller organizations have it that way.)

5- Actually, I know several former military officers that were above Lt Col.  They are treated with respect by most people (yes, you'll always have some jerks that have a narrow view on anything outside their opinion) and serve with distinction in their units.

6- I get the impression that you've been jerked around with a bit by your post.  And, in all honesty, if you're getting some of the information you have quoted from Wing or Higher, it shows that being in an authority position doesn't necessarily tie to grade or knowledge in this organization.

7- When you get upset about CAP grade being unfair... remember... it is just that. CAP Grade.  Yeah.  If you are a retired 0-6... that carries a lot of weight with a lot of people.  (Me included.)  CAP Grade?  My CAP Grade and $3 will get me a Coffee at Starbucks.  That's about it.

8- I applaud you for working with cadets, and promoting medical careers.  So many kids don't know the opportunities out there.  Having someone they know and feel comfortable approaching to discuss something like this can change so many lives.  Please don't let CAP's grade system deter you from all the good you can do for the youth of this organization.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007, 07:14:01 PM »

I could see the change in CAP SOP allowing a current of former O-6 to keep his Eagles in CAP.  The whole notion of no-one being allowed to be a Colonel except for Region and Wing Commanders is outdated.  They need to make the organization more parallel with the AF. 

This makes me think.....If an AD/GUARD or RESERVE LT comes in and is given that CAP grade, what happens when he or she is promoted to CAPT in the military?  Can they reapply for an immediate promotion to be a CAP CAPT?  What about MAJ and LTCOL?  See the point, we allow the initial grade but do not allow subsequent promotions.  To me that is unfair/ insulting and discriminatory. 

Example:  AF 1st Lt Joe Blow comes and joins CAP, he is given 1st LT in CAP.  His buddy AF 1st Lt Jane Lane waits to join CAP for one month.  During that month both 1st LT Joe Blow and 1st Lt Jane Lane are promoted by the AF to CAPTAIN.  CAPTAIN JANE LANE joins and is given CAPTAIN in CAP.  Both CAP members have the same date of rank to CAPTAIN in the AF, but Joe Blow must wait until he completes Time In Grade to make CAP CAPTAIN. 

DID YOU FOLLOW???  Is it Fair?  Or am I as slow as some have told me I am?
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DNall
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007, 07:15:20 PM »

Well, actually it was one little blip in there where it went down from MajGen to Brig, because the membership had dropped from our traditional number. It still hasn't recovered to that 80k range but suposedly the increased importance of our new missions after 9/11 deserve the bump. I'll let you know when we start running those missions.

Anyway, with the general subject. Yes I agree mil grade should be recognized acorss the board. At least to the degree CAP has those grades (Maj Gen). Personally, I'd ask AF to allow LtGen & Gen as well ONLY if earned in prior service, I'm quitre sure they'd approve that.

If past corp officers can retain their grade then you can't call it a designator for that, and besides there should be stuff like NB/NEC nadges & CC's badge to designate that stuff. So that's not a valid reason.

Oh, and yes mil officers who get promoted on the mil side can put in a new 2a & be promoted on the CAP side. It rarely happens since the CAP promotion periods are so fast by comparison, but there is no restriction & it will be approved.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 07:25:44 PM »

I could see the change in CAP SOP allowing a current of former O-6 to keep his Eagles in CAP.  The whole notion of no-one being allowed to be a Colonel except for Region and Wing Commanders is outdated.  They need to make the organization more parallel with the AF. 

This makes me think.....If an AD/GUARD or RESERVE LT comes in and is given that CAP grade, what happens when he or she is promoted to CAPT in the military?  Can they reapply for an immediate promotion to be a CAP CAPT?  What about MAJ and LTCOL?  See the point, we allow the initial grade but do not allow subsequent promotions.  To me that is unfair/ insulting and discriminatory. 

Example:  AF 1st Lt Joe Blow comes and joins CAP, he is given 1st LT in CAP.  His buddy AF 1st Lt Jane Lane waits to join CAP for one month.  During that month both 1st LT Joe Blow and 1st Lt Jane Lane are promoted by the AF to CAPTAIN.  CAPTAIN JANE LANE joins and is given CAPTAIN in CAP.  Both CAP members have the same date of rank to CAPTAIN in the AF, but Joe Blow must wait until he completes Time In Grade to make CAP CAPTAIN. 

DID YOU FOLLOW???  Is it Fair?  Or am I as slow as some have told me I am?
Actually, Lt Joe can submit a Form 2 for promotion to Captain as soon as he wants after making Captain in the AF. I have done this twice for AD members, and it has gone through with no questions.
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Dave Bowles
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 07:39:32 PM »

We need to link rank to billet instead of PD. If we make it tougher to make rank, and only allow promotion through certain ranks unless billeted, we can get a better handle on this whole situation. It's nice to have prior service rank, and maybe that experience needs to be considered but... how dificult is it to have a General walking around while a 1st Lt is running the show.

Just food for thought
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Eagle400
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2007, 07:41:18 PM »

Great point, SSgt Savage.  However, I think CAP needs to do it like the Air Force. 

How about automatic promotions up to Capt in CAP, just like in the Air Force?  In the Air Force, if you do your job and stay out of jail, you get promoted to Captain in 4 years.  

The focus is on job performance, not professional development.  In the Air Force, officer testing for promotion doesn't happen until Major.

I think the promotion system in CAP would work better if it operated the same way.    
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TankerT
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2007, 07:42:09 PM »

Well, actually it was one little blip in there where it went down from MajGen to Brig, because the membership had dropped from our traditional number. It still hasn't recovered to that 80k range but suposedly the increased importance of our new missions after 9/11 deserve the bump. I'll let you know when we start running those missions.

The blip had nothing to do with membership.  CAP decided (back... what... 15 or so years ago...) that the National Commander should be a 2 Star.  So, they promoted him.  Yeah... the Air Force wasn't involved with that... and... they didn't like it.  So, the next NCC was a BG.  It was purely politics.  (And... you can thank that incident for the lovely maroon epaulets...)
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 07:51:25 PM »

Great point, SSgt Savage.  However, I think CAP needs to do it like the Air Force. 

How about automatic promotions up to Capt in CAP, just like in the Air Force?  In the Air Force, if you do your job and stay out of jail, you get promoted to Captain in 4 years.  

The focus is on job performance, not professional development.  In the Air Force, testing for promotion doesn't happen until Major.

I think the promotion system in CAP would work better if it operated the same way.    

Great way to do it. I'm also in favor of bringing back NCO promotions, and enlisted rank. We can give away e-1 to e-4 and then hold an OTS for officer candidates or a very rigid promotion board for SSgt and up. At least then ALL of our officers come out with at least the basic knowledge of cap and our NCOs will have the same.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 07:58:44 PM »

Just for the record, because one senior official questioned how I obtained the 0-6 grade, I have held every officer grade from 0-1 to 0-6 through a combination of USNR, active regular USN, and USAFR service since 1967.  I also completed the Air War College like any other USAF officer who is being considered for 0-6.  How did I get the 0-6 grade?  I earned it, and was appointed by an officer selection board like everyone else!

Not to sound dismissive or insulting, just to get a better perspective on your thoughts...

When you joined the USAF, what were you...a 2d Lt, right, because you have no experience in the military? When you join CAP, what do you start as...SM but we'll rush that to 2d Lt, why, because you have no experience in CAP.  

(please don't take the following the wrong way...it kind of pertains to your first paragraph)
Upon joining CAP what have you done for the organization to justify you being promoted to the grade of CAP Colonel?  Or if you want to be a CAP Colonel, why not do something for the organization to justify your promotion within that organization, like become a Wing Commander.

Now you stated that you are have been a member for some time now and have most likely contributed to your squadron.  But since you have actually earned the grade of Colonel in the USAF, do you think that your level of responsibility at the squadron is that of someone who wears CAP Col?  If you were a Lt. Gen as a Leadership Officer at the squadron level, don't you think that would be a little out of place?  You would "out rank" the National Commander.  A little absurd to me.

I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level, rather than PD.  I think that CAP has the right idea with tying the ranks of Col and above to the positions they hold, because they represent the level of responsibility they have in the organization.  I think they should continue it further down.

I would like to hear your perspective on why, other than "I was a Colonel in the USAF," that new members should be automatically promoted to their respective grades (regardless of what that grade is) while serving in the military.

I agree with your first sentence...

"I believe that the CAP should either make everyone start at the 0-1 grade and work his / her way up through the CAP ranks"

Again, no disrespect intended, writing doesn't always come out the way you want it to.
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Eagle400
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2007, 08:09:45 PM »

Great way to do it. I'm also in favor of bringing back NCO promotions, and enlisted rank. We can give away e-1 to e-4 and then hold an OTS for officer candidates or a very rigid promotion board for SSgt and up.

You know, Maj Kachenmeister made a similar proposal a while back.  You may want to send him a PM about your idea.  In addition, there have been several ideas for an Officer Training School within CAP.  The only one I know of that exists right now is the Iowa Wing OTS, and I'm not entirely sure how it works.   

At least then ALL of our officers come out with at least the basic knowledge of cap and our NCOs will have the same.

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.  However, your idea is only for non-prior service E-1 through E-4, not non-prior service E-1 through E-9. 

It sounds like a great idea, and I fully support it.  The hard part will be convincing the Air Force that itís a good idea. 
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oldrugged
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 08:13:14 PM »

What part of my original post did you not understand.  I covered all your points.  It isn't me that has made the policy of accepting military rank regardless of position held for OTHER than 0-6 and above.  It is the CAP which has done that.  I made it very very very very very clear that I do nothing as an 0-5 that warrants an 0-5 commission.  I do the same job in the CAP as I do in 'civilian' life....I am a physician.  I am board certified in anesthesiology and critical care medicine, and am an advanced cardiac life support instructor.  That gives me more than passing knowledge of emergency medical services.  My only experience in CAP was as a cadet in the 50s.  However, I was some 13 years in the USAFR and have more than smattering knowledge of the organization.

As for 0-9 and above.....it would still seem less discriminatory to allow up to 0-8, the same rank as the national commander, even though the 2-star wouldn't be the national commander.  If an 0-3 can be a squadron commander with 0-5s in the command, why can there be only one 2-star in the organization??  Is there only one 4-star in the USA, USAF, USN, USMC, USCG???  Nope....but only one is chair of the joint chiefs.  No where, other than at the Wing and National organizational structure is the grade associated with any job title.

David A. Cross
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2007, 08:16:02 PM »

I'm actually in favor of promoting non-prior service through to at least TSgt. In order to maintain the integrity of the Corp, prior service NCOs will sit on the promotion boards, since all we have is PS NCOs at this point. Promotions need to be HARD. I don't think that a promotion board should be comprised of more than 1/3 people from your own unit. We need boards with unquestionable integrity. Every promotion should be a unanimous one. Officer promotions should be similar, if not the same.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 08:17:45 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 08:21:11 PM »

Quote from: jimmydeanno
I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level
You have a point though I still think some PD requirements should still count.  Maybe promote to major after some time at group level or squadron commander along with current Level III requirements.  Lieutenant colonel with some time at wing along with completion of Level IV.  Those who've earned Level V would qualify for colonel with five years time-in-grade as lieutenant colonels and three years at wing.  Time-in-grade requirements would remain as they are. Just thinking out loud!
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 08:29:23 PM »

Quote from: jimmydeanno
I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level
You have a point though I still think some PD requirements should still count.  Maybe promote to major after some time at group level or squadron commander along with current Level III requirements.  Lieutenant colonel with some time at wing along with completion of Level IV.  Those who've earned Level V would qualify for colonel with five years time-in-grade as lieutenant colonels and three years at wing.  Time-in-grade requirements would remain as they are. Just thinking out loud!
If you tie the PD requirements to the positions, it would all line up.  For instance...to be a Squadron Commander, you must complete level III.  For example;

Requirements for Major:
Hold CAP position of Squadron Commander or Equivilent (say Wing Director of ES)
Complete level III of the Senior Program
Have TIG of X as Captain

You would still be able to complete the requirements for the PD levels, but not be promoted unless you were holding a position that warranted that grade. Then you would have Majors who have completed level III holding a position that warranted that grade, and if they wanted to become a group commander or something, they'd finish the appropriate PD level and get the job.

The issues you'd have though would be a fledling or dieing squadron where a 2d Lt is the only person that is willing to take over.  Perhaps waivers for an X amount of time...

Just ideas...
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Eagle400
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 08:30:26 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1041972456/m/1920095511001?r=1680006511001#1680006511001

Quote from: DeputyDog02
The reason we were pressured to limit who becomes NCOs in the CAP was because of unprofessional and sloppy non-prior service CAP senior NCOs. If we go back to that, it will happen again.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1041972456/m/1920095511001?r=1680006511001#1680006511001

Quote from: DeputyDog02
The reason we were pressured to limit who becomes NCOs in the CAP was because of unprofessional and sloppy non-prior service CAP senior NCOs. If we go back to that, it will happen again.


No offense to DeputyDog(02), but the "source" you provided is no more valid then the post above stating that.  You can't just cite another forum as factual.  How about something "from the source?"
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 10:13:10 PM »

A couple of thoughts:

1) CAP colonel is a grade awarded by National Board only.....often is, but nor required to be, tied to corporate office....e.g., the gentlemen who developed SDIS was promoted to colonel; also, I think surviving coastal patrol members (long overdue, IMHO)

2) those who earn grades O-6 and above in the military should indeed be given equivalent grade in CAP. To get around the various problems this entails, such members should be enrolled as members of one of the several National HQ units (or start a new one just for them). Allow them to participate locally as ES personnel, instructors, or advisors on an ADY basis. If they accept command at region level,  or command or staff at national level, allow it to be in their earned
grade (this could include temporary command of a special activity, like Blue Beret or a Region Staff College or CLS). If they accept command at wing level or lower, maximum grade should be O-6.....if some general wants to command a squadron or group that badly, he/she can take the temporary 'bust'.

Please observe that I am not suggesting or allowing for such experienced officers to serve as vice commanders, deputy commanders, chiefs of staff or staff officers at region level or lower. If they chose to, it ought to be under existing CAP regulations (a region CV, CS or DCS can be a colonel).
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 10:18:32 PM »

A couple of thoughts:

1) CAP colonel is a grade awarded by National Board only.....often is, but nor required to be, tied to corporate office....e.g., the gentlemen who developed SDIS was promoted to colonel; also, I think surviving coastal patrol members (long overdue, IMHO)

2) those who earn grades O-6 and above in the military should indeed be given equivalent grade in CAP. To get around the various problems this entails, such members should be enrolled as members of one of the several National HQ units (or start a new one just for them). Allow them to participate locally as ES personnel, instructors, or advisors on an ADY basis. If they accept command at region level,  or command or staff at national level, allow it to be in their earned
grade (this could include temporary command of a special activity, like Blue Beret or a Region Staff College or CLS). If they accept command at wing level or lower, maximum grade should be O-6.....if some general wants to command a squadron or group that badly, he/she can take the temporary 'bust'.

Please observe that I am not suggesting or allowing for such experienced officers to serve as vice commanders, deputy commanders, chiefs of staff or staff officers at region level or lower. If they chose to, it ought to be under existing CAP regulations (a region CV, CS or DCS can be a colonel).

So you're saying that prior military Colonels shouldn't be allowed to be a member of a local squadron as a Colonel unless they take a "bust", which puts them in the same position that they're in now.  What if they don't want to be a member of a "National HQ Squadron?

You are basically saying what I posted above, that if they are doing something "worthy" of the grade, they shouldn't wear it in CAP.  Which then goes to the position based grades...

TAGS - jimmy
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