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Author Topic: Out ranking  (Read 13374 times)
usafcap1
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Posts: 303

« on: April 11, 2012, 06:47:30 AM »

Who out ranks who? A cadet who just crossed over and became a Flight Officer or a Senior Member who has been in for a very very VERY long time.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:41:45 AM by usafcap1 » Report to moderator   Logged
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(Cadet 2008-2012)

Air•plane / [air-pleyn] / (ar'plan')-Massive winged machines that magically propel them selfs through the sky.
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whatevah
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 06:54:31 AM »

what do the regulations say?
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Jerry Horn
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 07:18:17 AM »

A senior member, as in without grade?
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<redacted>

GRW 3340
SarDragon
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Posts: 10,627
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 07:52:28 AM »

Senior Member = SM, a grade label used on forms to fill a required entry blank.

senior member = an 18+ yo non-cadet member

All senior members outrank all cadets. All senior member officers and NCOs outrank all SMs.

YMMV.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
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Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
usafcap1
Seasoned Member

Posts: 303

« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 08:03:45 AM »

A senior member, as in without grade?

Si, I think there BDUs say CAP where the grade should be.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:42:03 AM by usafcap1 » Report to moderator   Logged
|GES|SET|BCUT|ICUT|FLM|FLS*|MS|CD|MRO*|AP|IS-100|IS-200|IS-700|IS-800|

(Cadet 2008-2012)

Air•plane / [air-pleyn] / (ar'plan')-Massive winged machines that magically propel them selfs through the sky.
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 08:04:32 AM »

If everyone keeps the Core Values in mind, there are very few situations where this question needs to be asked.

But to be explicit, in order from highest raking to lowest ranking:

Major General
Brigadier General
Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Major
Captain
First Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Senior Flight Officer
Technical Flight Officer
Flight Officer
Noncommissioned Officer(s)
Senior Member (No Grade)
Cadets
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: e.bos(at)orwg.cap.gov
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 09:43:18 AM »

I think this should have been covered during Level I    >:D
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SarDragon
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 11:29:23 AM »

Well, it appears, from a post on another thread, that the OP is a cadet. That doesn't relieve him from knowing that information, though.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
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FlyTiger77
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 12:51:42 PM »

Well, it appears, from a post on another thread, that the OP is a cadet. That doesn't relieve him from knowing that information, though.

His profile shows an age of 20. He may be a flight officer wanting to pull rank (whatever that means in a CAP context) on a SM. Who knows.
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JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP
bflynn
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 01:08:52 PM »

Why would a new Flight Officer need to "pull rank" over another member?  Better still, why would someone want to assert that they are higher ranked than someone else?  That might work in the Cadet world, but it isn't how things run in my squadron...we aren't military, we are civilian volunteers who use a military rank structure.

As an established matter of leadership, it's clear that you should never enter a new position and then "fix" things unless there is a clear safety issue.  It's a sure way to upset people.  It's another example of being legally right and still being wrong, a lesson that seems to be lacking in cadet training.

Without context, there's no way of saying. 
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FlyTiger77
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 01:42:20 PM »

Without context, there's no way of saying.

Exactly, which is why I phrased my post as conjecture.
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JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP
davedove
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 02:32:26 PM »

If everyone keeps the Core Values in mind, there are very few situations where this question needs to be asked.

But to be explicit, in order from highest raking to lowest ranking:

Major General
Brigadier General
Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Major
Captain
First Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Senior Flight Officer
Technical Flight Officer
Flight Officer
Noncommissioned Officer(s)
Senior Member (No Grade)
Cadets

And of course, this is only part of the picture, since position trumps grade in CAP.  Commanders outrank members of their unit; Ground Team Leaders outrank the members of their team; etc.
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David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
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Frederick Composite Squadron
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 02:42:22 PM »

Who out ranks who? A cadet who just crossed over and became a Flight Officer or a Senior Member who has been in for a very very VERY long time.

All authority in CAP is based on position, even the Major Generals receive their authority based on their command appointments, and once that
appointment is completed, they then move to being "equals" in regards to any command authority.

Senior Members are always in a supervisory, and defacto "loco parentis" role in regards to cadets, and always have a "go-no go" authority in regards
to anything concerning cadet safety, abuse, hazing, or "bad ideas".

However outside that lane, a senior member of long standing does not have any automatic authority over anyone.  A Lt. Colonel who does not have a specific staff or activity role deserves respect, military courtesies, and perhaps deference for their experience, but that's all, and in cases where a random member's directives conflict with the chain's directives, the chain always wins.  This also doesn't mean that a senior giving a cadet bad advice or direction
will get an automatic "pass" based on the senior-cadet paradigm.

While the above is always true senior-to-senior, and senior-to-cadet, it is more nuanced between cadets, where there is an expectation that in the absence of specified authority, the ranking cadet will take charge of the group until things are formalized, especially in regards to cadet officers.

In most cases, the shoulder wins in terms of courtesies, and the business card wins in terms of authority.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:41:52 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 02:43:16 PM »

A senior member, as in without grade?

Si, I think there BDUs say CAP where the grade should be.

I think you've misunderstood.  The first grade that all senior members become upon joining, until they promote or are appointed to another grade/rank, is "SM" which is generally called "Senior Member without grade" to distinguish them from senior members as a membership category. (And, yes, SM's without grade are the senior members who wear embroidered CAP cutouts on the BDUs). 

All adult, non-Cadet, non-patron members are "senior members" as a membership category.  Only some of them also hold the grade of "Senior Member" (often called "senior member without grade") while other senior members hold officer, flight officer, or NCO grades.  Confusing, yes.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
abdsp51
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »


As an established matter of leadership, it's clear that you should never enter a new position and then "fix" things unless there is a clear safety issue. 


I disagree you never fix from the onset unless absolutely necessary you observe and fix.  This mindset allows for the way of thinking of it's how we have always done it. 

Example to a degree a former police chief in my city revamped how the department did things, instituted new programs and above all changed the functioning of the department. 

Patton ensured strict adherence to the Army standard, when he took command.  LeMay another example made changes when he took over as the commanding general for SAC and later the USAF. 

To never change brings about complacency and invites stagnation.

On the topic at hand a FO in any capacity outranks a SMWOG or SM who happens to be a sponsor member.  However consideration needs to be taken given the aspects of the SM.
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bflynn
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Posts: 748

« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 08:58:23 PM »

I disagree you never fix from the onset unless absolutely necessary you observe and fix.  This mindset allows for the way of thinking of it's how we have always done it. 

I think you didn't understand.

The first three months in a job, you change nothing.  Zero.  Not even if everything looks completely broken to you.  Especially not if everything looks completely broken to you.  The only exception is a clear safety issue that needs to be addressed.

If you do, you will accomplish very little except upset people.  They will resist changes because they don't know you.

After three months, you've established yourself.  Now you can start making changes.

The original question was about a cadet who had just moved up and was challenging a senior member, using rank as power.

Do you understand what I was saying better?  I'm usually really bad at saying it right the first time.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 09:06:24 PM »

I see that but I am still going to have to disagree. 
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SarDragon
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 09:55:07 PM »

Well, it appears, from a post on another thread, that the OP is a cadet. That doesn't relieve him from knowing that information, though.

His profile shows an age of 20. He may be a flight officer wanting to pull rank (whatever that means in a CAP context) on a SM. Who knows.

He stated in an early post that he is a cadet, getting ready to turn  over to the dark side.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CAP4117
Seasoned Member

Posts: 205

« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 10:14:04 PM »

To be fair to the OP, when I first joined I was confused about this too, simply from a customs and courtesies perspective. I wasn't sure if I, a brand new SMWOG, should salute a flight officer. I searched the Internet and couldn't find a definitive answer, so I came here and people told me that yes, flight officers outrank SMWOG. That helped me out a lot when I encountered flight officers in the future, as I wanted to be respectful. I'm on my phone so I can't post the link to the other thread, but it's there if you search for it. Anyway, now that I'm a 2nd looie it doesn't matter so much anymore  >:D but it was good to know at the time.
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Capination
Member

Posts: 59
Unit: SER-PR-151

« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 11:51:08 PM »

Who out ranks who? A cadet who just crossed over and became a Flight Officer or a Senior Member who has been in for a very very VERY long time.

All authority in CAP is based on position, even the Major Generals receive their authority based on their command appointments, and once that
appointment is completed, they then move to being "equals" in regards to any command authority.

Senior Members are always in a supervisory, and defacto "loco parentis" role in regards to cadets, and always have a "go-no go" authority in regards
to anything concerning cadet safety, abuse, hazing, or "bad ideas".

However outside that lane, a senior member of long standing does not have any automatic authority over anyone.  A Lt. Colonel who does not have a specific staff or activity role deserves respect, military courtesies, and perhaps deference for their experience, but that's all, and in cases where a random member's directives conflict with the chain's directives, the chain always wins.  This also doesn't mean that a senior giving a cadet bad advice or direction
will get an automatic "pass" based on the senior-cadet paradigm.

While the above is always true senior-to-senior, and senior-to-cadet, it is more nuanced between cadets, where there is an expectation that in the absence of specified authority, the ranking cadet will take charge of the group until things are formalized, especially in regards to cadet officers.

In most cases, the shoulder wins in terms of courtesies, and the business card wins in terms of authority.

Couldn't say it better! superb
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