Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 20, 2019, 08:48:13 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Observations of a Cadet turned SM on Senior Membership.
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Send this topic Print
Author Topic: Observations of a Cadet turned SM on Senior Membership.  (Read 6096 times)
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« on: August 10, 2011, 12:41:29 PM »

I've now been to a whole FOUR Squadron meetings as a SM.

So far, these are the observations I've made:

SMs aren't really required to participate in much outside of the required training. I could come in to the meeting, do the opening formation (or not), and then just drop in on various unit activities throughout the night.

Because SMs aren't really required to do much, or are focusing on a particular track, training, project, you may not see them there every week. Our squadron ran an Observer course that just recently ended. The weekly attendance dropped drastically on the SM side of the house.

A lot of SMs wear Field and Dress Uniforms, not many of them wear them properly, or well. As a former cadet, and an HGA attendee, proper uniform wear is my thing. I've fixed some issues when I find them with cadets, but I've pretty much keep my mouth closed for the SM side of the house. Part of that is that I'll disengage again once classes start up on September 7th, and as a non-staff, "just here for the Summer" member, I don't have the authority or the place really to correct all of the issues. I'm sure some folks will jump on me for this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to wear their uniforms properly if they choose to wear them.

I'll add more to this as I observe more.
Report to moderator   Logged
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,179

« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 12:46:28 PM »

If I might make a suggestion (never on the cadet side...SM only).

Perhaps offer to do a class for SMs on proper uniform wear.  You obviously have knowledge of the area, and offering such a class might be well received by the other SMs in the squadron, and comes off as both non-confrontational, and fits nicely with your "just visiting" status...

Some SMs have never really been taught about proper uniform wear, and may well welcome the opportunity to learn.  Those who don't care, well, they'll continue to not care, but since they don't care, they just won't show up.
Report to moderator   Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 12:54:14 PM »

That is definitely a possibility, but crashes with the observations that not all SMs are at every meeting. I think to get the majority of active SMs, I'd need to do a class 3 weeks in a row.

Report to moderator   Logged
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,899

« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 01:20:54 PM »

Your input just might be very welcome. I had one of our high-speed cadets do some basic drill training for seniors. Most had either forgotten, or never knew, what to do. BTW, it was well received and formations look so much better.

As to seniors not doing much as meetings, that may very well be true. Personally, I donít get anything accomplished on meeting nights. Itís usually answering questions and helping everyone else get stuff completed. Itís the nights spent at home, which no one sees, where any real work gets done.

Just because you donít witness something, donít assume itís not happening.
Report to moderator   Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 01:25:31 PM »

EMT, not saying SMs don't do ANYTHING, just saying that the activity on the cadet side and the SM side is quite different. I'm quite aware that (especially staff officers) do a lot outside of meeting time. It's just a bit of a different dynamic.
Report to moderator   Logged
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,899

« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »

Sorry, wasnít a criticism, just an observation.

I guess that I buried my main point, that the opinion and experience of a new-to-the dark-side member might be more welcome than you would think.
Report to moderator   Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,713

« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 02:16:13 PM »

Well...welcome to the gray side!

Report to moderator   Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Irishrenegade
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: SWR-OK-113

« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »

We had the same issue in our squadron and what I try to do along with our DCC is take time to explain customs and courtesies as well as uniform regulations to new senior members. Granted we were actually asked to come in and speak about it on occasion because once again I as well as others noticed the same thing where SMs were not wearing the uniform properly.

I actually think it is part of Level I to know and understand the uniform and how to wear it. The uniform was given to us by the Air Force and I feel that we should not have SMs who disregard the regulations. I was actually told by an active duty O-5 that correcting someone on uniform wear is a good thing because you are being a "wingman" for the individual so I say go for it and correct what you see wrong.
Report to moderator   Logged
SWR-OK-113
Assistant Deputy Commander of Cadets|Information Technology Officer
Is laige ag imeacht as an gcorp Ū an phian


NY Bred and now in OK
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 03:12:09 PM »

Well...welcome to the gray side!

Thanks!

Been here for (almost) a year! 17 Aug 10 was my official SM transfer. Didn't get to participate until this summer.
Report to moderator   Logged
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,051

« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 03:17:20 PM »

There was always that issue of having a job, a wife and three kids who were all competing for my time when it came to attending meetings every week.  CAP landed at the bottom.  If there were times that I needed to be there several weeks in a row other things tended to suffer.   The Senior program doesnt require them to attend every week.  Generally, one night per month is pretty adequate for a Senior for a standard meeting.

However, I do see a definite need to wear the uniform properly. I find in my experience most seniors do not have a background with wearing military style uniforms and often equate it to any other uniform they may have worn at a job.   Where I think people go wrong with teaching uniform wear is that they tend to approach it with "The cadets are looking up to you."  I would avoid that avenue because many may not care if Cadet Jones is looking to see if his creases are sharp.   Approach it from the angle of why they need to from a military/USAF requirement angle. 

But dont get yourself in trouble by comparing the senior participation to the level of cadet participation.  Two completely different programs with different requirements. Like EMT posted, CAP doesnt just happen.  I was the same way, meeting nights were pretty routine.  It was all of the other HOURS of work spent away from the base that got CAP done.  Dealing with personnel issues, building issues, meetings with the Grp Commander once per month.  Cadets never see a lot of what happens. They think because Capt Smith didnt show up in uniform he is a slacker.  They dont know that he spent all day at the DMV trying to get the Sq van registered and smogged or spent all day at a city office trying to renew the lease for building so you all dont get kicked out.   Or, that he/she had a disastrous day at work and would really rather be at home but came anyway.  I always told my members, life comes first. CAP doesnt pay the bills.  Keep that in mind before we start ripping them for not having HG level uniforms.  There were many times that I didnt have $30 for a new blues shirt, and when I did, it went to getting my son something he needed for his.  Not excuses, but there is a reality of life people cant appreciate when they are still living with mom and dad.

But none of that is an excuse for not know when, where and who to salute.
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
*
Posts: 30,132

« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 04:09:26 PM »

Since I know "whence you have come", I'm guessing I know most of the offenders on your list, and my personal advice would be to
take them discreetly aside and correct them, or, if you're not comfortable with that, tell the CC.  Only about 1/2 of them know the regs
enough to really get into the nitt-gritty, but they all want to get it right.
Report to moderator   Logged


Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2011, 05:24:47 PM »

Eclipse, you obviously would know, since we're in the same Group. :P

Flying Pig, I wasn't so much passing judgement, as simply noting a difference - something I didn't really pay attention to as a C/Officer who interacted with SMs quite regularly. I didn't get to a CAP meeting this summer until July, because life got in the way for 3 weeks straight. Then there was another week when I had to miss after finally making it out to the unit. Today I have to miss a great event because I have my Stats class at the same time tonight. I get that life happens. I get that bills need to be paid - I've been paying my own since moving out, 35 months ago at 18 1/2 years old.

I also get that probably for most of the members with issues, they want to get it right but just don't know, or think they got right, but really didn't. Fixing blues/greys is easy. I could even do it for them, and write out instructions. Fixing a BDU/BBDU is much harder unless the member does it himself (or that is the root of the issue).

The most common issue I've seen involved droopy nameplate on blues (no reinforcers), perhaps misaligned nameplate at the same time. If ribbons are worn, then the placement/ribbon rack style/ribbon order may be the source of the problem. I've seen SM (WOG) wear the No-grade slides on their blues shirt, with the "CAP" metal cutouts on the collar. However this was at an event with Region, Wing, Group and Squadron commanders present, and my literal first outing as a SM, and the member who had the issue, I wasn't about to correct right then and there. I'm not going to even focus on the shapers for the slides or gig lines. As long as they wear the slides right, and the overall wear looks passable, that would be a good start.

When it comes to B/BDUs, it gets a bit harder to correct issues. Sometimes members sew on their own nametapes - it shows. Not everyone is as skilled as my grandmother, and even for all of her advice, I'm decent at best. Sometimes the member will take the blouse to be done by a seamstress, but don't relay the correct dimensions, or get the work screwed up.

How do you turn to anyone, and say "I know you paid about $3.00 for each item to be sewn on, but your US Flag is sitting too low, your Wing patch is as well, and since it is optional, you can just take it off, your nametape is spaced way too far above the pocket, your ground team badge is too close/far from the 1/2" dimension specified, oh and by the way, it's 1/8" blue field, not 1/4", the captain bars are not 1" from the collar, and are a bit crooked".

First, that's way too much information for someone who just wants to do ES work, and is a rocking GTM or Pilot. Second, just to fix the hypothetical issues at $3 an item, that comes out to $15 for the 5 items on top of the original work, and wasted $3 for a misplaced wing patch.

Who wants to talk about blousing  boots with some SMs?

Where does one draw the line between "getting the job done", and "looking the part" (at least to the minimum standard).
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
*
Posts: 30,132

« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2011, 05:49:01 PM »

How do you turn to anyone, and say "I know you paid about $3.00 for each item to be sewn on, but your US Flag is sitting too low, your Wing patch is as well, and since it is optional, you can just take it off, your nametape is spaced way too far above the pocket, your ground team badge is too close/far from the 1/2" dimension specified, oh and by the way, it's 1/8" blue field, not 1/4", the captain bars are not 1" from the collar, and are a bit crooked".
You just did.

First, that's way too much information for someone who just wants to do ES work, and is a rocking GTM or Pilot. Second, just to fix the hypothetical issues at $3 an item, that comes out to $15 for the 5 items on top of the original work, and wasted $3 for a misplaced wing patch.
Your question cannot be answered.

If they are that "rocking" and still have issues like those, especially on the same shirt, they are either too new to be "rocking" anything, their attention to detail is lacking, or they have decided that somethings can just be thrown together because they "don't matter".  And / or their commander is blind.  Any way around it needs to be fixed.

Most of what I learned in CAP I learned watching others.  Everyone makes mistakes, or interprets things incorrectly, but I never cease to be amazed by members who are surrounded by people doing something one way, especially in regards to the uniform, and yet they are so oblivious as to either not notice or not care.  Even more so if you know they sewed everything on themselves, because in that case they had to spend at least a little attention to
where things go.

Who wants to talk about blousing  boots with some SMs?
What's the big deal?  Show them how.  (Though it is not required on the blue field uniform, it's a good idea).  As I am sure you recall, we thought important enough to issue blousers to everyone at encampment and they were all supposed to be shown how to use them. (And they weren't for holding your towels on your belt or your radio mic on, though they work good for that as well).
Where does one draw the line between "getting the job done", and "looking the part" (at least to the minimum standard).
There's no line, it's all part of the same conversation.

The only thing that chaps me more than getting something wrong, is walking around all day, surrounded by people who I know saw it, and them not respecting me enough to tell me, instead content to see me walk by looking like a goof.  I much prefer to be told about the mistake so I can fix it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 06:09:23 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


CAP4117
Seasoned Member

Posts: 205

« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 06:04:48 PM »

Having been through this confusion myself (and still experiencing it with some things), I completely agree with Eclipse. New SM's want to be a part of the organization as much as cadets do, even if they are different programs. Wearing the uniform correctly is a huge part of feeling part of the team, and someone correcting me on my uniform shows me that they care. It doesn't matter if it's patch placement, or blousing, or whatever. The details are important, and I would never be upset with someone for pointing them out.  :)
Report to moderator   Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,076
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2011, 11:26:49 PM »

Having been through this confusion myself (and still experiencing it with some things), I completely agree with Eclipse. New SM's want to be a part of the organization as much as cadets do, even if they are different programs. Wearing the uniform correctly is a huge part of feeling part of the team, and someone correcting me on my uniform shows me that they care. It doesn't matter if it's patch placement, or blousing, or whatever. The details are important, and I would never be upset with someone for pointing them out.  :)

I had this long thing going again, and then I deleted it.

Say I discuss the idea of a uniform class for the SMs, maybe having them bring in their uniforms and inspecting/helping/giving them notes for correction. What if some still blow it off? That was never an issue on the cadet side because it's expected that it gets done. But what about the Senior side of the house? We talk a lot about motivating and moving a volunteer force, but how do you deal with folks who DO participate, but just really don't think the uniforms are a big enough deal to wear right? You can't explain them away as useless, because I've met plenty of folks who don't see the military side of CAP as something we should care about anyway. Does the Commander then have a conversation and if needed tell them to stick to the Polo? How do you manage this hypothetical situation?
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
*
Posts: 30,132

« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2011, 11:47:22 PM »

How do you manage this hypothetical situation?

Unless you are a Commander, or otherwise in a position of authority / responsibility for them, there's no situation to manage.

I try and help people out of respect and self-preservation, some people can't be helped, and actively work at looking foolish.  In those cases,
unless I have a responsibility beyond my respect for a fellow member, there is no further avenue.

Like I said, if you're comfortable, speak to them directly (discreetly and professionally), if not, mention it to their commander, or send them a "thought you should know" email after the activity.

Beyond that, their reaction will speak volumes about whether you want that person involved in anything you later have a say in.
Keep good notes.
Report to moderator   Logged


DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 12:12:07 AM »

Beyond that, their reaction will speak volumes about whether you want that person involved in anything you later have a say in.
Keep good notes.

While it's always good to get a "Wow, thanks, didn't realize my uniform was that bad," in the cases that you don't, this is the best bit of advice I've ever seen.
Report to moderator   Logged
RADIOMAN015
Banned

Posts: 1,990

« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 12:31:20 AM »

I think uniform wise, many senior members wear golf shirt combo.  The rest of the uniform types available can cause some wear issues for a limited number of senior members.  Frankly, it's up to the Commander and/or Deputy Commander for Seniors (and maybe the Professional development officer)  to be the guiding light when adults are astray in their uniform wear (although, I've on occasion correct someone IF it would really make them look too stupid).   Not sure a new senior member is the person to be doing those corrections -- why cause an issue for yourself and as you said your contribution are going to be VERY limited because you are off to school anyways.

As far as senior members working at meetings, it really depends what one has to do IF it involves training others that are attending the meeting to get trained, BUT generally much of the staff work is done at home on non meeting nights.   Also I may get material from other members (e.g. digital photographs) that they either download into one of the squadron computers and then I use my thumb drive, or other information (cause sometimes the pictures are so large the email server rejects it).

I personally don't see a young adult member having much impact on the older adults. 

RM     
Report to moderator   Logged
DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2011, 12:39:21 AM »

I personally don't see a young adult member having much impact on the older adults. 

RM     

Wow. I've seen some pretty negative things posted by you, RM. I can even see your (twisted) logic in most of the things you post.

But this? That's ridiculous. You must have a disgustingly close-minded attitude around yourself and the units you're in. In my squadrons joint effort is the name of the game- members working side by side and helping each other out regardless of age.

And yes, on the same topics in this thread.
Report to moderator   Logged
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,017
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 12:46:11 AM »

I personally don't see a young adult member having much impact on the older adults. 

RM     

Wow. I've seen some pretty negative things posted by you, RM. I can even see your (twisted) logic in most of the things you post.

But this? That's ridiculous. You must have a disgustingly close-minded attitude around yourself and the units you're in. In my squadrons joint effort is the name of the game- members working side by side and helping each other out regardless of age.

And yes, on the same topics in this thread.

It's because he projects his own issues. He's always harping on "wannabees" yet what he states as his actions smack much stronger of wannabeeism than anything he complains about. He complains about secret police like IGs and yet he is always "undercover" at CAP activities. He is either a professional troll or he has mental issues.
Report to moderator   Logged
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Send this topic Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Observations of a Cadet turned SM on Senior Membership.
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 26 queries.