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BillB
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« on: December 30, 2010, 01:12:53 PM »

On various threads members are decrying about the 18-21 year old cadets. Some say that at age 18 the cadet should turn senior. Others bemoan the lack of retention of this age group. Cadets in this age group complain about having to deal with 12 year olds or other cadets no where near their peer group as well as the lacvk of challenge in the existing cadet program. Also the problem of retention of college bound cadets keeps popping up. There are several answers to these problems, but it would take a complete revision of CP to address them.
First, reactivate the old Officer Training status for 18-21 year olds. Under the old program is was voluntary and most cadets stayed cadets rather than advance to the OTC program. A new OTC program would have to me manditory for 18 to 21 year olds and require National to design a program for this age group. But at the same time, OTC should allow progression through cadet achievements and milestones for OTC members while they also take part in senior PD.
The rank structure would also need to be changed to go back to the old USAF style Warrent Officer grades. That is a silver bar with blue stripes across the bar rather than the length of the bar. To often senior members don't recognize the flight officer ranks and just considers flight officers as "super cadets". Allow OTC members to hold Squadron staff positions, not associated with cadet programs.
These changes would require that several regulations be changed such as 35-1, 39-1 52-16 and PD training. But it would resolve the percieved problems with the 18-21 year olds.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 06:19:48 PM by BillB » Report to moderator   Logged
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 08:28:30 PM »

Bill:

I tend to agree with you.

CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are out of HS and in college, ROTC is where you ought to be.

If you are out of high school and not in college, the military is where you ought to be.

If you are not eligible to join the military, or you think that you are too important and precious to risk in combat, then you should come to the SM side of CAP and serve as an officer.  Warrant Officer, Flight Officer, max nix, but you are too old to play with the children.

If you don't want to be an officer, then we can part friends, and CAP can be a part of your life as a fond memory.  Catch you at the reunions.

As I said on the other thread, when one chapter ends, a new chapter begins.  Don't fear the turning of the page.
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Another former CAP officer
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 08:47:13 PM »

While I tend to believe that there is no need for an 18-21 year old cadet program and the fact that there are almost none tends to support that belief, I also don't see any advantage to starting a new program aimed at that particular age group.  If we aren't going to keep things as they are we should either make all 18-21 year olds cadets or make them all full senior members and have them participate in that program.  The either/or solution we have now doesn't make a lot of sense. 
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 09:15:11 PM »

Transition the 18-21 year-old to Seniors as full officers.  (gasp)  Yes, I said it.  Now, how that is gone is precarious.  I would support the CAP-OTS which would include Level 1 in a classroom settings, CPPT, SLS and some staff training.

This would, however, mean that a 17 year old would have little chance, if any, of getting the Mitchell or higher. 

The idea of "18 year-old" CAP Officers might be something of an issue with some of you, however, based on the issues described above, CAP could serve as a college activity for those therein.  Imagine...Composite, Cadet, Senior and Senior/Campus Squadrons and Flights.  A special membership criteria for these "College types" might also help, offering some criteria for those attending college (like lower dues, scholarship opportunities or the like)
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flyboy53
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2010, 09:25:18 PM »

Honestly, I have mixed feelings about this. I think it would be cool!

However, if you re-introduce/implement an officer trainee program, than why have flight officers? It would, though, create a solution for that rank insignia.

Perhaps the solution is to allow it voluntarily -- with a condition of where the the cadet is currently in the program. Otherwise, I believe the officer trainee concept could de-rail the cadet program as it now exists.

I don't know how many times I've encountered a cadet who joins the program at the 15 or 16-year point, which means that they have to be very aggressive in completing Phase II in a two or three-year time period. Or you have other situations where someone has had an extended lapse in participation due to illness, school things or other conflicts, but kept their membership and they come back into the program at the 16-17 age group. I have a son in this category.

That said, the Mitchell Award seems to be a plateau award for a lot of cadets and if an officer trainee program is created, than what avenue is given to the cadet who is advanced in age and looking at achieving the Mitchell in order to enter the military or for some other goal? Right now there isn't a set requirement that the Mitchell has to be completed before the age of 18 (I checked this fact with NHQ). Yet, so many of these cadets are told incorrectly that they can't obtain a Mitchell Award after the age of 18.  I know of another cadet, one of four brothers in the program, who is now a freshman in college but still wants to participate.

And really, you also open up a can of worms about enlisted ranks. In 1971, I had completed five years in the cadet program, had just turned 18 and was in my HS senior year. I was looking at being the only cadet in a squadron of officers and most of them, WWII CAP veterans, and those officers really weren't interested in cadets. So, I did the only thing I could do, I became a senior member and an enlistedman. Two years later, enlisted ranks went away and I did the only thing again that I could do at the time and that was to become a warrant officer. It seemed like I was just being pushed along due to my age.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 09:54:58 PM by flyboy1 » Report to moderator   Logged
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 11:53:48 PM »

I think a cadet should remain a cadet until he/she is done with high school.  That may be something past 18, or even 19.  The Mitchell takes 2-3 years to earn.

We would have to be straight-up with 16 year old recruits and their chances to earn a Mitchell, but a 15 year old should have enough time.
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Another former CAP officer
ZigZag911
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 12:05:31 AM »

I joined as a cadet @ the end of my junior year of high school (16.5 yrs)

Earned a Mitchell in about 20 months, Earhart in another 8-9 months.

Just short of my 3 year anniversary of cadet membership I was pushed hard to become a senior...wasn't crazy about it at the time, and there wasn't much of a program for young seniors...but I found opportunities, and learned from the,

A structured program for 18-21 participation, service and training -- particularly one that reached out to our members living away at college -- could be very worthwhile to the members themselves and to CAP in general.

I'd say use FO ranks and insignia (USAF WO insignia no longer exists).

As an incentive, those who complete Level 2 of senior program (by doing most of it, not by get all kinds of waivers for cadet activities...maybe specify a technical track other than cadet programs...could promote to 2 Lt @ 20 years of age.

It would be a TIG advantage to Mitchells (they'd thereby be eligible for 1 Lt @ 21), perhaps for Earharts (rules are a bit confusing)....and of course the Spaatzen could jump to captain anyway.
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BillB
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2010, 12:28:19 AM »

What I'm reading is that most of the posts missed the line in my original post that would ALLOW an OTC member to continue to complete achievements and milestones while an OTC member. Since most testing is now online this should present no problem while the OTC member continues training in senior PD or learning senior duty assignments.
Zig-zag,
the fact that the Warrant officer grades are no longer used by USAF should be the reason that OTC should use them. Call them Flight Officers if you wish, but change the grade insignia to the old style USAF Warrant officer grades. Cadets and seniors recognize a ba on an epaulet but tend to ignore epaulets with stripes.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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SamFranklin
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 12:31:27 AM »

CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are currently an 18-20 year old cadet, then I agree you're an authority on this subject; if not, I think the fact that a few thousand members of that age choose to remain cadets ought to be reason enough to rethink your opinion.

"How much preparation do you need?" Well that depends on the quality of outcome you're trying to achieve. I have high standards for cadets, so I don't find it surprising that we can't crank out Boes and Ryans and Malachowskis in just three or four years.

That young adults continue to find our Cadet Program a worthy investment of their time and effort is a good thing for which we all should be proud.


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Ron1319
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 01:04:05 AM »

I would wager that almost all (90%+) of us who were cadets until we turned 21 believe that we got more out of the program after 18 than before.  The attitude that there is nothing left in the program for those cadets is the concern that I have.  I have observed many seniors treating any cadet like a 12 year old and I firmly believe that attitude is what is causing us to lose so many potentially great cadets who could have the same during-college experience that I did.  My sister was national CAC chair after 18, and I would imagine most of the national CAC comprised almost entirely of 18+ cadets.  I also would expect most encampment cadet commanders to be 18+. 

My argument has not been that there needs to be an additional program.  There is plenty of program between ES, NCC, CAC, squadron meetings, opportunity to help other units, or build new ones...  The vision and maturity to effectively manage and retain cadets almost undoubtably improves as a cadet gets older.

We need these cadets to have a strong cadet program.  I was making an argument in the other thread that we could give them different supervisory requirements as a way of showing trust in them.  They are adults, they should have a different set of rules.  In other words, at 19 I had my own apartment, was a full time engineering intern, my own car, and had an opportunity to be a cadet commander again.  I certainly didn't always need senior officer supervision.

I believe it's a combination of over regulating just a bit and attitude on the part of seniors, and that addressing both would help with 18+ retention. 

I'd go so far as to say that if you don't see the value of having a 20 year old c/Col around to mentor and plan then I hope you have no role in cadet programs.  I'd love to just borrow one for three months because they could do a better job of showing how it should be done to my junior cadet officers than I can.  I can tell them, but I just can't show them the same way anymore.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 01:58:01 AM »

I've got an open mind on this, but I've got a question:

What can a post-high school person in CAP do as a cadet that he cannot do as a SM flight officer?
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Another former CAP officer
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 02:03:49 AM »

Participate in NCSAs. 
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 02:59:29 AM »

They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.
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Another former CAP officer
BillB
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 03:01:54 AM »

Earn the Spaatz
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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Ozzy
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2010, 03:07:57 AM »

Can get actual useful leadership opportunities.

I joined CAP at the age of 17. Luckily I had then-two years of AFJROTC to assist me along with getting promoted. From being a flight commander and other positions as a cadet at encampment, I know I learned a lot more as a cadet then if I was either a TAC or mentor in another department at any of the encampments.

If I was a senior member, it would have taken how many years so get to a top position like encampment commander/dcc/coc?

Yes I see the arguement both ways, but whether or not a cadet should be given more responsibility should be a case-by-case thing, not a blanket requirement.
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jeders
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2010, 03:08:18 AM »

-Get primary flight training in a CAP powered aircraft with a CAP CFI.
-Earn any of the cadet achievements.
-Participate in any part of the CP.
-Participate IN an NCSA. Seniors, except for NESA and the like, don't participate in the NCSA at all, they just escort the cadets. That doesn't give nearly the career exposure that we're shooting for with the programs.

Is that a good enough list?
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2010, 03:18:33 AM »

They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.
True, but you're not really getting to do the really neat things most of the time.
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Ned
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2010, 04:48:41 AM »

What can a post-high school person in CAP do as a cadet that he cannot do as a SM flight officer?

I've got one for you:

Q: what can a flight officer do that a cadet can't do?

A: Nothing, except get one of dozens of academic scholarships, go on IACE, serve as a cadet commander or cadet staff member at encampments and other wing activities, serve on CAC at the wing, region and national levels, attend RCLS or COS, solo at a national flight academy, wear all the badges and ribbons denoting years of achievement in the cadet program, compete at NCC, participate in our character development program, earn a Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, or Spaatz award (with commensurate USAF benefits), or train to become a dynamic American Aerospace Leader.

Other than that, flight officer is definitely the way to go.



(For the record, flight officers and SMWOGs can supervise cadet activities, drive CAP vehicles, get married, and serve on active duty.  We need and appreciate the support given to CP by our dedicated flight officers.)



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manfredvonrichthofen
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2010, 04:59:06 AM »

Had I stayed out of the Army and went to college I would have stayed a cadet. I never got the opportunity to be on staff at an encampment, I would have loved to though. I did miss out on a lot by not staying a cadet. Although I don't regret what I did, I do wish I had done things a little differently. I would have loved to compete in Wing, Region, and National competitions, I didn't because I rushed to get through the CP to join the Army as an E-3. I knew that I wanted to go into the Army and learned what I could do in CAP and get a leg up in the Army. I just fell in love with the CP and found out everything I could do with CAP as a cadet, but after 9-11, I was in a rush to go AD and do all I could.

Don't take the CP from the older cadets, don't take those opportunities from them that they can do only as cadets. It is hard to fit all of that into your life all before you turn 18. I just don't know how I would feel being a cadet over 18 with all of the legal issues that go along with it. I know I would be uncomfortable in a few areas, but that is part of the responsibility of being a cadet over 18.
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Slim
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2010, 04:59:26 AM »

They can go as escort officers.  Usually escort officers are harder to find than cadets.

I'll preface this by saying that I turned senior the day after my 18th birthday, and I did it for a number of reasons having nothing to do with what the CP could offer to me.

Not necessarily.  I believe IACE requires major before a senior member is eligible for selection as an escort.  The only other NCSA that typically uses a lot of seniors, and springs right to mind, is NBB.  And I don't think the director at NBB would be willing to make an 18 year old senior a TAC over a flight of cadets, most of whom are mere months younger than their TAC.  Most of the other NCSAs that have some form of senior member participation do it by invitation (COS, CLA), or based on geography.  A senior member living in Albuquerque might be asked to assist with PJOC at Kirtland, or a senior member near JB Bragg/Pope might be asked to support CCOC.  Another definite difference is that seniors at most NCSAs are strictly van drivers, admin, logistics, or other support.  The actual teaching/experiences are coming from RM personnel with experience related to the NCSA at hand.

Even NCC requires team escorts to be 25 years old. Is this a fact?  I read it somewhere, and I haven't actually looked in the regs to see if it's true, or just XXWG policy.

I would also think that a fair number of encampments won't allow an 18 year old flight officer to be a TAC, especially if that person is a recently turned cadet.  My wing's encampment in particular wouldn't allow it.  We actually encourage pretty much all former cadets/just turned senior to do something other than being a TAC officer (in some instances, we have flat out refused to allow it). 

As a 18-20 year old flight officer, the only duty I was allowed to hold at encampment was to serve as the assistant coordinator for our old job-shadow program, under a couple of older, more experienced officers who wouldn't really let me do anything dumb.  It wasn't until after I turned 21/1st Lt that I was allowed to do anything more meaningful at encampment.  This allowed me a few years to mature, separate myself from-and establish some boundaries with-my former peers who were still cadets, and give me some ideas of what goes on in the background to make an encampment happen. 
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Slim
flyboy53
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2010, 01:42:07 PM »

You know, the one thing this is missing from this string is the critical requirement that most cadets are striving for when they chose to stay in the program -- to get their Mitchells or higher, for what ever reason.

What if this program were designed so that the member could achieve a Mitchell-like or Air Force-recognized Certificate of Proficiency with the same benefits of the Mitchell Award? What if these individuals could continue to participate in the program like an 18-21-year-old cadet-- the full thing -- PT, special activities, training, ES, et all? You would end up with a more proficient senior member at a junior rank.

Wouldn't it be cool if an encampment had an officer trainee flight. How about a flight of them at special activities? Imagine the competition between OTs and Cadets?

I could really embrase this program if all that were possible. Imagine the possibilities.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2010, 01:44:30 PM »

I see your points, although I don't see the utility of getting awards beyond the Mitchell as a college student.  The Mitchell gets you advanced enlisted rank in the USAF, and higher awards might get you some positive points at the Air Force Academy, but If you don't get these higher awards until you are in your second year of college, what's the point?  You are not going to the Academy.  I don't think there is any ROTC benefit in getting these upper-level awards.

It just seems that hanging on to cadet membership as an adult is the CAP equivalent of living in your parents' basement into your 20's still spending several hours a day eating pizza and playing "Grand Theft Auto."

And, if you are a college student in ROTC, the activities as an ROTC cadet are way better than any NCSA's that CAP can offer.  Our lawyers scrub our NCSA's to make sure that there is no actual fun things to do, but in ROTC, you can actually go to jump school, survival school, and cool stuff that will actually enhance your AF career.
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Another former CAP officer
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2010, 02:36:08 PM »

Besides once you are in college the chances that you are going to go into the military as an enlisted person are probably pretty small so the military "credit" for the Mitchell or any other training program that we come up with wouldn't mean much. 
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2010, 04:40:04 PM »

Well, not so much.

Scholarships dry up, money runs short, personal situations change over 4 (or in my case, 5) years.  There are quite a few folks who enlist with a year or two of college.  Not enough to qualify as an officer.  Some services, like the Army, give E-2 or E-3 if you have some college, or at least they used to.  I don't know about the AF. 

Going to college with the Mitchell would insure E-3 if the person ultimately decided to enlist.  Otherwise, I think they waive the 1st year of ROTC, but again, I'm not sure, since I'm an Army OCS grad.
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2010, 04:45:20 PM »

Part of the point of older cadets is the acceptance of responsibility for those coming next.

This is something sorely lacking in the entire program in these days of "get mine and out".

Cadets come in as younglings and after achieving their own goals, are supposed to pay back the system by being mentors
and examples for the next generation.

Also by design, older cadets should be staffing the larger activities and other high-level functions, but because we don't stress
this from day-1, this isn't even on most cadet's radar.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2010, 04:54:08 PM »

That's exactly my point.

But cadets over 18 are in a no-man's land world.

The have to take CPPT, but they have NO actual responsibility.

We still have to have 2 SM's on any overnight activity, one SM and an 18+ cadet don't work.

They can FLY on missions, but can't DRIVE on missions.

Cadets completing high school and serving as SM junior-officer role models would be way more useful than keeping them cadets. 

As far as the "Get mine and get out" argument, it seems that ALL of the arguments FOR keeping the 18+ crowd cadets centers on personal awards and achievements... NCSA, the Spaatz, flight training.  I don't think anybody has pointed out an advantage to CAP or the Air Force in keeping post-high school cadets in the cadert ranks.
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2010, 05:15:45 PM »

I see your points, although I don't see the utility of getting awards beyond the Mitchell as a college student.  The Mitchell gets you advanced enlisted rank in the USAF, and higher awards might get you some positive points at the Air Force Academy, but If you don't get these higher awards until you are in your second year of college, what's the point?  You are not going to the Academy.  I don't think there is any ROTC benefit in getting these upper-level awards.

Well, the Army folks were kind enough to waive the first two years of ROTC based on my Spaatz, but I don't think that is written down anywhere.

FWIW, CAP gives varying amounts of advanced placement in our vitally-important senior program based on the awards, don't we?

But to me at least, the pieces of paper on the wall are less important than the knowledge gained while going through the program.  Kinda like college, the diploma is not the point; it is the knowledge gained while going to school.  And we have a lot to teach our post-Mitchell cadets.  Really, really.

Quote
It just seems that hanging on to cadet membership as an adult is the CAP equivalent of living in your parents' basement into your 20's still spending several hours a day eating pizza and playing "Grand Theft Auto."

If that really is your honest opinion, then you really need to engage more in our terrific cadet program beyond providing some much-appreciated o-rides.

I'll bet you are one of the first to rise in outrage when some uniformed AOPA member opines that "CAP is a bunch of overweight hangar-flyers swapping stories about 'back in the day' while waiting to fly at taxpayer expense."

From my perspective, both positions are hurtful and not based in fact.

Quote
And, if you are a college student in ROTC, the activities as an ROTC cadet are way better than any NCSA's that CAP can offer.  Our lawyers scrub our NCSA's to make sure that there is no actual fun things to do, but in ROTC, you can actually go to jump school, survival school, and cool stuff that will actually enhance your AF career.

How odd.  Just last month I was in the office of the AFROTC commander at Maxwell.  He told me that due to budget constraints, AFROTC has cut back essentially all of their summer activities and schools beyond the required field training and some language schools.  Our meeting was to discuss ways that CAP can include ROTC cadets in our summer encampments and NCSAs.

Thank goodness that in CAP cadets can still go to PJOC, flight academies, and Red Horse orientation that can actually enhance future AF careers.  8)

But cadets over 18 are in a no-man's land world.

The have to take CPPT, but they have NO actual responsibility.

We still have to have 2 SM's on any overnight activity, one SM and an 18+ cadet don't work.

They can FLY on missions, but can't DRIVE on missions.

You are certainly correct that we have some odd rules when it comes to the world of ES.  But that seems a lot easier to fix with some rule changes before we get to  forcibly throwing out about a thousand cadets.  Talk about babies and bathwater . . . .

And you are also correct that cadets are treated as cadets.  Who - be definition - are military students.   And students generally don't supervise other students regardless of age. 

18-year old adult high school students don't supervise minor students on field trips. Nor do they drive the bus.  Because they are students.

When I was a 27 year old Army ROTC cadet, I still couldn't drive the van or act as the supervisor at overnight trainings.  But oddly enough, the E-6 supply sergeant could do both of  those things.  Because I was a student, and she wasn't.

I understand that junior residents do not get to perfrom complex surgeries on their own.  Despite having an MD degree and a license.  Even if they are 35 years old.  Because they are students.

My daughter is a 23 year-old deputy sheriff, a duly sworn peace officer.  But she is not allowed to drive the patrol unit alone, because she is still in "student status" until she completes the FTO program.

Do I need to go on?

Quote
As far as the "Get mine and get out" argument, it seems that ALL of the arguments FOR keeping the 18+ crowd cadets centers on personal awards and achievements... NCSA, the Spaatz, flight training.  I don't think anybody has pointed out an advantage to CAP or the Air Force in keeping post-high school cadets in the cadert ranks.

I dunno.  What is the advantage to Harvard to having a lot of students?  I suppose they get some work out of them as lab assistants and TAs.  But I'll bet Harvard understands that the whole point of Harvard is to benefit the students; not the other way around.

Kinda like CAP, wouldn't you agree?

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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2010, 05:31:12 PM »

Ned:

I am not passionate on this issue.  I see both sides of the coin, and I am not ready to join the torches-and-pitchforks crowd to get rid of the post-high school cadets.  I DO, however, think there are some cogent arguments that favor a close re-look at them.

There are several, I think 4 or 5, 18+ cadets in our entire group.  Yes, they are sharp.  When they are there.  College and part-time employment keep them way busier than left-wing indoctrination in high school.  Once out of HS, they become ghosts.  This is NOT their fault, just a fact.

Also, I didn't suggest throwing them out.  I suggested transitioning them to F/O status once the HS diploma is in hand.  Please note that that might be at age 19.  Bill B. suggested a radical idea... transition them to F/O status with HS diploma and a Mitchell, but allow them to continue to work on advanced cadet achievements as a flight officer. 

I know you said on an another thread that there are no plans and no support for these ideas.  I hasten to point out that in 1900 there were no plans and no support for marrying an internal cumbustion engine to a glider, either.   
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Another former CAP officer
manfredvonrichthofen
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2010, 05:46:00 PM »

I could see putting a few more things into the cadet program.Can be requirements or not, but add some WO grades into the mix. I realize that there used to be one WO grade before C/2LT back in the day. What if we were to add a couple of WO grades into the mix for those cadets 19 and over to start transition into SM status, sort of a liaison between cadets and SM's. An area of cross over. A spot where cadets will still have the connection to the rest of the cadets while learning the roles of the SM as he/she applies to the CP. Learning to distance themselves from the cadets as they transition. An area of greater responsibility for those who are ready for it. A written exam and review board would be required to ensure that the cadet is ready for these responsibilities.
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FW
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2010, 06:22:35 PM »

We had such a transitioning program a while back (the "STP" program).  For some reason, it didn't work out well.  Cadets motivated to progress to the Spaatz like the status they are in.   And, for the most part, don't seem to have issues with "over regulation". 

I agree with Ned.  Why would age be a factor in a Cadet's progression?  We are in the business of developing our cadets to be fully able to deal with the world and, if a cadet upon reaching 18 wants to stay, they should.
 
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2010, 07:23:46 PM »

I think Ned's analogy with medical interns is applicable.  Up through Mitchell and HS graduation could be considered "Medical School," after which the cadet becomes an SM officer but is expected to serve as an "Intern."  He would be granted the privileges and responsibilities of an officer, and held to the expectations of an officer, but still allowed to strive for cadet awards, do staff studies, PT, and all the things that go along with the upper level cadet awards.  He could then be used as a junior officer with regard to things like cadet supervision, mission participation, and stuff.

Managed properly, lieutenants and captains who came up through this program would serve as mentors, and in the end I think we would end up with a much more professional officer corps.
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Another former CAP officer
spacecommand
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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2010, 08:06:59 PM »


Not necessarily.  I believe IACE requires major before a senior member is eligible for selection as an escort. 

Grade does not matter for IACE escorts.

IACE requires:
 Escort Ambassadors Requirements
1.  At least 25 years
2.  Have earned at least a senior rating in the Cadet Programs Specialty Track
3.  Have not attended IACE as an escort or cadet in the previous five years
4.  Hold, or be eligible to apply for, a US Passport*
5.  Be able to undertake all of the activities of a cadet ambassador

IACE is an exception to the rule as you do get to engage in the activities sometimes.  Generally in most other normal NCSA's, Senior Member escorts are just that, escorts. 
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A.Member
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2011, 01:22:31 AM »

CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are out of HS and in college, ROTC is where you ought to be.

If you are out of high school and not in college, the military is where you ought to be.

If you are not eligible to join the military, or you think that you are too important and precious to risk in combat, then you should come to the SM side of CAP and serve as an officer.  Warrant Officer, Flight Officer, max nix, but you are too old to play with the children.

If you don't want to be an officer, then we can part friends, and CAP can be a part of your life as a fond memory.  Catch you at the reunions.

As I said on the other thread, when one chapter ends, a new chapter begins.  Don't fear the turning of the page.
While I may not agree with you choice of words, I do agree with your general point/view.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
RobertAmphibian
Recruit

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Unit: GLR

« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2011, 01:47:17 PM »

Disclaimer:I'm a 17 year old Phase IV cadet.

18+ cadets are rare, but some of my greatest mentors in the program. I can think of a few off of the top of my head. Several are not planning on going into the military and are several are in ROTC programs.
From what I've seen, an older cadet who is active at the squadron level is pretty rare. However, having them as a resource when planning activities, especially encampments, is  fantastic. CAP has an extremely high turnover rate as is. Having older cadets around helps to create and maintain continuity within the program.

Aside from providing extra years of knowledge, I can say that knowing and working with older cadets has helped to develop my own leadership style. Most of them are not living completely as adults, but they have life experiences that have helped me in a few tricky leadership situations.
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Ron1319
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Unit: PCR-CA-273

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« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2011, 11:57:13 PM »

Disclaimer:I'm a 17 year old Phase IV cadet.

18+ cadets are rare, but some of my greatest mentors in the program. I can think of a few off of the top of my head. Several are not planning on going into the military and are several are in ROTC programs.
From what I've seen, an older cadet who is active at the squadron level is pretty rare. However, having them as a resource when planning activities, especially encampments, is  fantastic. CAP has an extremely high turnover rate as is. Having older cadets around helps to create and maintain continuity within the program.

Aside from providing extra years of knowledge, I can say that knowing and working with older cadets has helped to develop my own leadership style. Most of them are not living completely as adults, but they have life experiences that have helped me in a few tricky leadership situations.

So are you going to stick with CAP as a c/Col until you're 21?  Being a 17 year old Phase IV cadet is not a disclaimer, it's something to be proud of and is more like a proclaimer than a disclaimer, if the word exists and means what I would like for it to mean.  It makes your opinion much more valid.  You should fill out your profile so we can see where you're from.  It gives more context.  Please, set the example so that the next group of cadets knows that you can be a cadet until you're 21 and how valuable that is. 

I had to go back and look at an old drill team photo to see who stayed a cadet until 21 and I'd say about half of us stayed in and gave back.  At least a couple enlisted and couldn't.  The only way for it to culturally change is if key cadets your age decide to help make the change by doing it, living it and encouraging others to do the same.
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Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319
RobertAmphibian
Recruit

Posts: 47
Unit: GLR

« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2011, 02:25:54 AM »

Mostly for privacy reasons, I'll just add my region for now. If anyone has any specific questions about my personal CAP experiences, feel free to direct them to me in PM.

If I don't receive an appointment to a service academy, I'll hopefully be able to stay active as a cadet until 21. I know a good number of cadets who have managed to balance college course loads (sometimes with ROTC) through their older years. All of the encampments I have been to have had 18+ cadet commanders. Not to say being older is always better or in any way a requirement, just that older cadets have managed to do some great things for the program.

Again, 18+ cadets have made a tremendous difference in the cadet and person I am today. I feel like I'm able to interact and work with a much wider range of people.
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Ron1319
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Unit: PCR-CA-273

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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2011, 02:42:59 AM »

From what I've seen recently and experienced myself, college course loads even in very rigorous programs are less time consuming than most high school programs.  I went to engineering school and I am sure that I was spending less hours per week on the engineering program most weeks than I was on garbage high school homework.  If you're going to work 20 hours a week on top of that, or of course if you're going to an academy, then that changes significantly.
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Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319
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