CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: flyguy06 on May 12, 2006, 11:27:11 PM

Title: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: flyguy06 on May 12, 2006, 11:27:11 PM
I am curious what do former military officers that achieved the rank above Lt Col do if they want to join CAP? In my Wing we have a retired full bird Marine Corp Colone who was a real Wing Commander of a Flying Wing. Of course CAP made hm wear Lt Col rank and he doesnt seemto mind. Personally if were me ( I will probably never achive that hihg inthe military) I would have an issue.

 I also know a member who is a retired USAF two star. He doesnt wear the military style uniform but opts to wear the civilian blue shirt/grey slacks. But everyone calls him General.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: shorning on May 12, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
I am curious what do former military officers that achieved the rank above Lt Col do if they want to join CAP? In my Wing we have a retired full bird Marine Corp Colone who was a real Wing Commander of a Flying Wing. Of course CAP made hm wear Lt Col rank and he doesnt seemto mind.

That's exactly what they do.  Funny, but that's what is spelled out in the regs.

Personally if were me ( I will probably never achive that hihg inthe military) I would have an issue.

And itwould be such a trivial thing to get worked up about.  What if we made them join as SM's?  Imagine!  Having to start at the bottom...just like everyone else!  Oh, the horror!

I also know a member who is a retired USAF two star. He doesnt wear the military style uniform but opts to wear the civilian blue shirt/grey slacks. But everyone calls him General.

GAWG.  Retired two-star.  Called "general".  Is actually a CAP Lt Col, IIRC.  Never wears AF-style uniforms.  When he does need to be in a "military-style" uniform, he wears he AF uniform.  Hmmmm...doesn't seem to have any issues with it.  (I see a pattern here....)
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Eclipse on May 13, 2006, 02:38:22 AM
As a point of fact, EVERYONE, regardless of prior service grade, joins CAP as a Senior Member, and it is only after completion of Level 1 training that they can be considered for Special Appointment to an equivalent grade based on their current or prior service.

The best CAP can do for anyone over a Lt. Col. is Lt. Col., and while I understand
the reasoning, I think this is troublesome because you wind up with Officers who outrank everyone in the room, are used to commanding, and probably know little-to-nothing about CAP.

We've had that issue locally on several occasions recently where high-ranking officers from other services come in, sew on thier advanced CAP grade, and think they can just slide into the chair and start running the show.

For some its just a humbling experience that makes them appreciate our hard-working volunteers, but for others it ends their CAP careers early because they think the world should adapt to them (and everywhere else, it does).


Quote from: shorning on Today at 06:55:00 PM
GAWG.  Retired two-star.  Called "general".  Is actually a CAP Lt Col, IIRC.  Never wears AF-style uniforms.  When he does need to be in a "military-style" uniform, he wears he AF uniform.  Hmmmm...doesn't seem to have any issues with it.  (I see a pattern here....)

Were he working with cadets, I believe this would be a violation of 52-16, as he would be out of CAP uniform, which is required for any Cadet functions.

"A" uniform ≠"The" uniform.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: shorning on May 13, 2006, 02:48:04 AM
Were he working with cadets, I believe this would be a violation of 52-16, as he would be out of CAP uniform, which is required for any Cadet functions.

"A" uniform ≠"The" uniform.


Easy there quick draw.  Read what I wrote.  You're making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

Never did I say he worked with cadets.  Believe it or not, not all senior members work with cadets.  For example, I don't.  I have, will, and can.  When I do, I will be appropriately clad.  However, that doesn't mean I have to wear an AF-style uniform.  I can just as easily wear a golf shirt. 
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Eclipse on May 13, 2006, 03:05:22 AM
Were he working with cadets, I believe this would be a violation of 52-16, as he would be out of CAP uniform, which is required for any Cadet functions.

"A" uniform ≠"The" uniform.


Easy there quick draw.  Read what I wrote.  You're making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

Never did I say he worked with cadets.  Believe it or not, not all senior members work with cadets.  For example, I don't.  I have, will, and can.  When I do, I will be appropriately clad.  However, that doesn't mean I have to wear an AF-style uniform.  I can just as easily wear a golf shirt. 

Please read what I wrote - the word "were" is key to the sentence.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: capchiro on May 13, 2006, 12:50:13 PM
There are so many violations of CAPM 39-1....IIRC, a cadet can not be required to wear anything other than the Air Force blue uniform unless it is voluntary (meaning not required) or provided free.  Since most squadrons that I know of can't provide free BDU's to cadets, they can't be asked to wear them, legally.  They also shouldn't be required at encampments for the same reason.  And believe it or not, encampments could be done without BDU's.  I went to an encampment at Chanute Air Force Base in 1964 in Khaki's and gym clothes.  As far as the two star general, I do believe he worked with cadets on a gliding encampment as a glider pilot and did not wear a uniform and thus, according to some, was in violation of CAPM 39-1  or 52-16, or at least some manual or reg.  That said, he was a key element of the glider encampment and the cadets loved him and the experience.  Sometimes we get too involved with the trees to see the forest.  This gentleman should be honored and respected for past deeds and current efforts to make this program what it should be and not because he's not some hard core Marine wanta be (and no disrespect towards the Corps), it's just that we are not and need to remember that.  JMHO, as usual.   
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: flyguy06 on May 13, 2006, 01:05:59 PM
I have never read where it is a rule that in order to work with cadets, you must wear a military style uniform. I think its a good idea to do that, but I have never read wher eit was required.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: md132 on May 13, 2006, 01:49:48 PM
According to 52-16, the SM must complete Level 1 and CPPT and wear a CAP uniform to work with cadets.  It could be the AF-style, CAP distinctive (Aviator shirt and grey slacks) or gold shirt/grey slacks combo.  It doesn't matter which uniform as long as it is a CAP uniform. 
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Eclipse on May 13, 2006, 02:03:24 PM
Exactly correct, no one said military style was required - it is interesting to see how fast people react to what they THINK they see written, versus what was actually said.

The problem I have encountered is that some members believe their "other service" uniform means anything to 52-16. (Or CAP for that matter).

You're an Army Captain?  Thank you for protecting the wall, we desperately need your experience, skill, and military bearing, but during our activities, please wear the proper uniform.  You would expect nothing less if the tables were reversed.

If you are in CAP, and the USAF, supervising cadets, and not there in your USAF capacity, wearing anything other than a CAP uniform (i.e. USAF style) is a violation.

Its a fine line easily overlooked, until something bad happens, liability claims are filed to pay off the parents, and it comes out the member was not in proper uniform.


 
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: flyguy06 on May 13, 2006, 04:24:17 PM
Sorry I misread. A Thousand pardons.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: flmed on May 15, 2006, 04:05:13 AM
  As far as the two star general, I do believe he worked with cadets on a gliding encampment as a glider pilot and did not wear a uniform and thus, according to some, was in violation of CAPM 39-1  or 52-16, or at least some manual or reg. 

I am by no means 100% sure, but I believe someone told me that you are not required to be in uniform when flying in a glider since gliders can become very hot. Again, I am not certain and if someone has more time than me, please feel free to look it up.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Pace on May 15, 2006, 04:36:33 AM
The National Flight Academy I went to back in '03 required khaki shorts and the activity t-shirt.  Uniforms were a no-go.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Eclipse on May 15, 2006, 05:02:55 AM
If and when that is the case, ILWG johnson Flight Encampment is an example, a waiver has to be applied for and approved, with a definition as to WHAT the uniform is.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Pace on May 15, 2006, 05:13:32 AM
You're probably right.  Back then, I was still completely ignorant to all the behind-the-scenes procedures and paperwork.  Now I have half a clue 1/4 of the time.  Or is it 1/4 of a clue half the time?
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Earhart1971 on May 15, 2006, 08:52:35 AM
Getting back to the original question.

I think a Military Officer should be allowed to wear their highest earned rank from the regular Service as a CAP member, and the more Rank the higher the better, the more prestige to CAP.

Since we have a Major General as National Commander, its probably about time to promote Region Commanders and maybe Wing Commanders to Brig General.

Now when we get to half a million members, then CAP will be well within its rights to have a full General as National Commander, since we will be the size of a MAJOR COMMAND, in fact a Major Command in the Air Force could be 50,000.

But the pay and benefits unfortunately will have to stay the same for all ranks, LOL!
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: ncc1912 on May 16, 2006, 02:09:50 PM
Getting back to the original question.

I think a Military Officer should be allowed to wear their highest earned rank from the regular Service as a CAP member, and the more Rank the higher the better, the more prestige to CAP.

Since we have a Major General as National Commander, its probably about time to promote Region Commanders and maybe Wing Commanders to Brig General.

Now when we get to half a million members, then CAP will be well within its rights to have a full General as National Commander, since we will be the size of a MAJOR COMMAND, in fact a Major Command in the Air Force could be 50,000.

But the pay and benefits unfortunately will have to stay the same for all ranks, LOL!

First, let me thank you for returning to the original issue. :)

Secondly, I must say that I am dual CAP/USAF and have been for the last five years.  I've served in many states/wings and overseas as well.

Please allow me to augment:

I am not so concerned about military rank equivalency.  I think that it is a mute point.  When persons have spent that much time in the military they know what the rank means and they also know that there is a certain amount of responsibility that goes along with those oak leaves, eagles or stars they bear on their shoulders.  In CAP, they more than likely do not carry the same burdens as they did while serving in the military.  Most would recognize this fact and see it as a maintenance of CAP's rank structure. 

Should they be recognized for their service? Of course!  When you see that individual in their service dress you will know right away, but they aren't serving in that three-star or full-bird capacity any more.  Generally, they are just another officer in the crowd and they know and except it with a few minor exceptions throughout the organization.

I'm not so sure where the concern for this policy started, but I would like to make a comment on rank and responsibility:  There are many examples throughout CAP where there are captains commanding a squadron of majors and lieutenant colonels.  As a matter of fact, it is common.  If we are going to show concern for those who have had the command experience in the military, then why are these prior-military generally not stepping up to the plate in these instances? ...It's their choice.

I commend the retired brigadier general who joins CAP and works his/her way up while at the same time I commend the retired lieutenant colonel who steps out of the AF uniform directly into the CAP squadron commander's chair.  They are use to moving into a position they know little about at first and learning as they go... That is nature of military service as a field-grade officer (or higher for that matter).  For example, you could be a meteorologist taking command of a basic training squadron at Lackland AFB.  What does he/she know about Basic Military Training (BMT)?  He/She has never been through it as his/her airman are unless he/she is prior-enlisted.  But they can learn the job just as these prior-military will learn CAP.  It isn't the large of a stretch and their experience is invaluable.

In conclusion:
Offer them their rank (or as close as you can get)
Respect their choice, either way
Utilize their skills as a leader should they choose to offer them
Recognize that fresh (non-CAP) eyes are often a virtue!  You may find that a prior-military (no CAP experience) officer may be more qualified than a 20-year CAP veteran.  The sad thing is the prior-military person will probably recognize it before anyone else... They're trained to.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Earhart1971 on May 17, 2006, 01:47:25 AM
One thing I would like to see:

Mitchell and Earhart Cadets returning to CAP as Seniors, at a higher Rank than 1st LT.

We need more of them, and they are LIKE GOLD, for the continuance of the the Program.

But I see a returning Air Force Officer like, lets say a FULL GENERAL, I would have no problem with 4 Stars in CAP Uniform.

Sit them at the round table at the NEC, and let them Bring us more clout and power.

Conversations like " Yeah, I know the Commander of ATC, he was my roomate at the Academy - Yeah let me handle him, I'll get you that, Yada, yada."

Fasten seat belts CAP is going to the next level!


Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: shorning on May 17, 2006, 02:09:00 AM
One thing I would like to see:

Mitchell and Earhart Cadets returning to CAP as Seniors, at a higher Rank than 1st LT.

We need more of them, and they are LIKE GOLD, for the continuance of the the Program.

But I see a returning Air Force Officer like, lets say a FULL GENERAL, I would have no problem with 4 Stars in CAP Uniform.

Sit them at the round table at the NEC, and let them Bring us more clout and power.

Conversations like " Yeah, I know the Commander of ATC, he was my roomate at the Academy - Yeah let me handle him, I'll get you that, Yada, yada."

Fasten seat belts CAP is going to the next level!



(http://home.hawaii.rr.com/shorning/huh.gif)
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: SarDragon on May 17, 2006, 03:18:42 AM
Colonels, for the most part, are current or former corporate officers. That's in the rules somewhere, and probably won't change any time soon.

Specifically, from CAPR 35-5:
c. Colonel. The grade of colonel is reserved for members of the National Board, region vice commanders, the Chief of the Chaplain Service, CAP Inspector General, National Safety Officer, National Historian, and the Chief of the CAP Health Program.

This has been the policy since WIWAC, and most of the folks I know who are affected by it by not being able to wear their retired rank don't really care.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Earhart1971 on May 17, 2006, 04:42:29 AM
You can call it (the retired Generals from the AF) a ceremonial courtesy Grade Transfer, let them be advisors, but no voting on the National Board.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: SarDragon on May 17, 2006, 06:41:24 AM
Then what about retired Flags from the other services?

As for being advisors - at what level? Most retired military folks I know want to settle down a bit and pass up the opportunities for frequent flyers miles. These days, I travel because I want to, not because I need to, including CAP.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Earhart1971 on May 17, 2006, 08:46:44 AM
Then what about retired Flags from the other services?

As for being advisors - at what level? Most retired military folks I know want to settle down a bit and pass up the opportunities for frequent flyers miles. These days, I travel because I want to, not because I need to, including CAP.

Its a volunteer basis, I would ask a General, just like any new Senior, what would you like to do?

My suggestion is welcome anybody, that is former Service, they get their Highest Rank, attend Level 1 and the upper courses.

Get to participate and be advisors, and the added advantage, hey we need this, who do you know (in whatever regular Service) that can help us?

They will feel flattered and useful.

I invited, a Lt General (retired) to speak at a Group Banquet, he loved it, and we probably could have recruited him.

I'm sure there are some Generals out there and other lower ranks that would enjoy CAP.
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: shorning on May 17, 2006, 08:55:44 AM
Then what about retired Flags from the other services?

As for being advisors - at what level? Most retired military folks I know want to settle down a bit and pass up the opportunities for frequent flyers miles. These days, I travel because I want to, not because I need to, including CAP.

Its a volunteer basis, I would ask a General, just like any new Senior, what would you like to do?

My suggestion is welcome anybody, that is former Service, they get their Highest Rank, attend Level 1 and the upper courses.

Get to participate and be advisors, and the added advantage, hey we need this, who do you know (in whatever regular Service) that can help us?

They will feel flattered and useful.

I invited, a Lt General (retired) to speak at a Group Banquet, he loved it, and we probably could have recruited him.

I'm sure there are some Generals out there and other lower ranks that would enjoy CAP.

So we'll basically use them for their connections and experience.  What do they get in return?  A warm fuzzy...

Where do I sign up... ::)
Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: Earhart1971 on May 17, 2006, 02:24:43 PM
Yeah, they get a Warm Fuzzy.



Title: Re: Former military Officers above Lt COL
Post by: BlackKnight on May 19, 2006, 01:21:06 AM
... As far as the two star general, I do believe he worked with cadets on a gliding encampment as a glider pilot and did not wear a uniform and thus, according to some, was in violation of CAPM 39-1  or 52-16, or at least some manual or reg.  That said, he was a key element of the glider encampment and the cadets loved him and the experience.  Sometimes we get too involved with the trees to see the forest. ...

I really don't want to lead the thread off topic again but this is too important not to close the loop.  It's a very common misconception that the casual "shorts and T-shirts" often seen at CAP soaring operations is a uniform violation or exception.  It isn't.  Here's the reg:

CAPR 60-1, Section 5-7. CAP Member Soaring Uniform. Soaring activity, to include the tow pilot, demands that comfortable, loose-fitting, nonrestrictive clothing be worn. A T-shirt, such as a CAP designed wing T-shirt with a pair of shorts/long pants and tennis shoes is sufficient. However, the final decision, as to uniform, rests with the region/wing commander. Due to space restrictions in most glider rudder pedal areas, the wearing of boots, including military style boots, is prohibited.

So in the case mentioned the 2-star glider CFI was in approved CAP uniform.