CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Hawk200 on October 13, 2018, 09:48:58 PM

Title: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 13, 2018, 09:48:58 PM
Haven't done one of these in a while, but thought I'd see what the landscape looks like. What kind of changes would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms? New badges or patches? Get rid of old ones that don't really reflect our mission anymore? Maybe things authorized for the Air Force, but haven't yet been for CAP or they haven't gotten around to it yet?

It's a wish list type of question, no guarantees that something would change, although if a number of people mention the same thing, it might be worth pushing up the chain, see if Ma Blue would be open to it.

You don't have to post something of your own, probably easier to quote someone's post, and add "+1" if you agree with the idea, and your own doesn't differ appreciably.

I'll give it a week, then consolidate the list. I'll post it as a new thread.

I'm looking for rational, and professional ideas. I think most people know what that would include.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 13, 2018, 09:53:46 PM
Actually have a uniform.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Gunsotsu on October 13, 2018, 10:18:28 PM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Stonewall on October 13, 2018, 10:47:00 PM
Allow ALL senior members the option of wearing the USAF style uniforms, ALL OF THEM! All senior members and all AF uniforms.

Too easy!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GaryVC on October 13, 2018, 11:13:23 PM
The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: etodd on October 13, 2018, 11:26:03 PM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.


Simple polo uniform is all I need.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 14, 2018, 12:36:59 AM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.

Reason for your rather radical change?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAP9907 on October 14, 2018, 12:52:38 AM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.

just heard this being talked about at the NER Conf just now..  have to say i would agree
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Chappie on October 14, 2018, 01:53:33 AM
As of May I put on a beard — had one for 20 years prior to joining CAP in 1996 — and have thoroughly enjoyed wearing the corporate uniforms.   Don’t miss wearing the USAF-style at all. 
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 14, 2018, 02:43:28 AM
As of May I put on a beard — had one for 20 years prior to joining CAP in 1996 — and have thoroughly enjoyed wearing the corporate uniforms.   Don’t miss wearing the USAF-style at all.

What, you're hanging around with Dave and all of a sudden you get the urge for the furry face? >:D
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on October 14, 2018, 02:48:31 AM
I swear, I had no active influence on that behaviour.  :angel:
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 14, 2018, 03:03:06 AM
Pulled from Cadet Shoulderboards in the Marketplace...

If you've been to a Uniform store. $32.80 is reasonable. Military Officers can pay up $40-80 for a pair of boards with embroidered grade. Cadet shoulder boards do cost a lot. I wouldn't be disappointed if CAP changed to cadet hard rank worn on the epaulet.

How about a soft board, keeping the same design, but eliminate the pointy tip and button (make the start of the pointed part the top of the slide)? Slide onto (or velcro around) the service coat epaulet and put full size grade insignia through the blue part. Of course, this would require cadet officers to get the officer style service coat...
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 14, 2018, 03:44:39 AM
I swear, I had no active influence on that behaviour.  :angel:


Yeah, right, un hunh.   ::)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Gunsotsu on October 14, 2018, 05:06:20 AM
Reason for your rather radical change?

Because cosplaying as USAF does nothing but alienate those that choose not to or can not wear them. It works for recruiting cadets, but the type of adult that wants to join so they can wear the same duds as Ma Blue aren't the kind of people this organization needs. Furthermore, wearing USAF frocks does nothing to advance the three missions, and in the ES realm, it hinders it.

You say radical. I say with 30 years around this organization, it's long overdue.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2018, 06:19:06 AM
Because cosplaying as USAF does nothing but alienate those that choose not to or can not wear them. It works for recruiting cadets, but the type of adult that wants to join so they can wear the same duds as Ma Blue aren't the kind of people this organization needs. Furthermore, wearing USAF frocks does nothing to advance the three missions, and in the ES realm, it hinders it.

You say radical. I say with 30 years around this organization, it's long overdue.

((*SHACK*))
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Spam on October 14, 2018, 08:08:31 AM

We set the UOD as polos for our last UCC, the last several TLCs, the last Commanders Call, and even told crews/staff reporting to the ongoing DR mission to wear polos.  Its gone over just fine as far as I can tell. No complaints at mission base yesterday evening from aircrews or staff. No complaints from students at classes.


When you don't put people into a situation where there is an opportunity for an ethics breach, then your chances of having that drama drop off radically. Imagine the dropoff in angry locked threads here, should we have nothing to argue over. Ditching USAF style for adults is defusing an arsenal of "work grenades" that add nothing to our effectiveness. Had only one guy to talk to privately (huge reduction in command workload there  ;D)


Scrag the USAF styles for adults over 18 - concur. Make it a non issue going forward and release us to focus on the missions not the accoutrements.

V/r
Spam

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Chappie on October 14, 2018, 02:34:13 PM
I swear, I had no active influence on that behaviour.  :angel:

I can attest that SarDragon did not have an active influence on the beard’s return .... but the same cannot be said of my wife of the past 46 years 😉. It is safe to say that she exerts a bit more influence 🤣
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 14, 2018, 10:54:31 PM
Wasn't really looking to create any heated discussion, just wondering what people would like to see done for our uniforms. So far, nothing really concrete.

Looking for the ideas. What would you change? Add? Remove?

CAP is probably always going to have a couple different uniform categories (by which, I mean those meeting weight/grooming standards, and those who don't).

When it comes to uniforms, what are people interested in seeing done? If you've already posted, I know your thoughts, I'll add them to list that I consolidate. Anything else? Hard to believe that there isn't a patch, or a badge, or a uniform, or modifications that people wouldn't want to see.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: HandsomeWalt_USMC on October 15, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
I'll bite. I had an idea recently based on a new trinket I was given at work. All of us who have served in the military were given an American flag citation bar (like an enamel ribbon) with our service and veteran on it. For instance, mine has USMC Veteran.
I think some sort of CAP ribbon for members who have served in the military should be available, one that they can wear on corporate uniforms or in lieu of wearing military ribbons on USAF style uniforms. My idea would be for a new ribbon design, not service specific. Call it the CAP Military Service Award or something like that. It would greatly reduce the amount of clutter for many of us (with my CAP and mil ribbons together I have 19 as a 2ndLt) and provide a little something to recognize the service of our members who wear corporate uniforms. Thoughts?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 15, 2018, 01:11:49 AM
I'll bite. I had an idea recently based on a new trinket I was given at work. All of us who have served in the military were given an American flag citation bar (like an enamel ribbon) with our service and veteran on it. For instance, mine has USMC Veteran.
I think some sort of CAP ribbon for members who have served in the military should be available, one that they can wear on corporate uniforms or in lieu of wearing military ribbons on USAF style uniforms. My idea would be for a new ribbon design, not service specific. Call it the CAP Military Service Award or something like that. It would greatly reduce the amount of clutter for many of us (with my CAP and mil ribbons together I have 19 as a 2ndLt) and provide a little something to recognize the service of our members who wear corporate uniforms. Thoughts?

Designed, written, discussed on CAPTalk, sent up. Went into some unknown blackhole.

See discussion starting here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7421.60 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7421.60)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 15, 2018, 01:20:11 AM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Gunsotsu on October 15, 2018, 01:50:35 AM
Wasn't really looking to create any heated discussion, just wondering what people would like to see done for our uniforms. So far, nothing really concrete.

Looking for the ideas. What would you change? Add? Remove?

CAP is probably always going to have a couple different uniform categories (by which, I mean those meeting weight/grooming standards, and those who don't).

When it comes to uniforms, what are people interested in seeing done? If you've already posted, I know your thoughts, I'll add them to list that I consolidate. Anything else? Hard to believe that there isn't a patch, or a badge, or a uniform, or modifications that people wouldn't want to see.

Appears to me that people have spoken, you just aren't liking what they're suggesting. You're either open to taking every opinion, even those you don't agree with, or you're just looking to stir the pot.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/2b/2b8b5a61a48ec7abd3d217e465ccb152921bdec24f780b22673c4a8a5102774c.jpg)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAP9907 on October 15, 2018, 01:59:30 AM
Wasn't really looking to create any heated discussion, just wondering what people would like to see done for our uniforms. So far, nothing really concrete.

Looking for the ideas. What would you change? Add? Remove?

CAP is probably always going to have a couple different uniform categories (by which, I mean those meeting weight/grooming standards, and those who don't).

When it comes to uniforms, what are people interested in seeing done? If you've already posted, I know your thoughts, I'll add them to list that I consolidate. Anything else? Hard to believe that there isn't a patch, or a badge, or a uniform, or modifications that people wouldn't want to see.

Then I'll quote in case you missed it, this is quite concrete



Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

credit: Gunsotsu
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 15, 2018, 10:07:26 AM
Appears to me that people have spoken, you just aren't liking what they're suggesting. You're either open to taking every opinion, even those you don't agree with, or you're just looking to stir the pot.

You missed the point, and you're sidestepping with this little "call out." I've done posts like this in past, and it wasn't meant to create argumentative discussion, I was simply wondering what things someone would like to see for the uniforms. In the past lists, I included proposals that I didn't agree with, simply because it was proposed in response to what I asked.

Your idea will be added to the list, just like every other legitimate idea. What I'm looking for is someone saying "I'd like to see this." What I'm not looking for is people responding with "Why do you want THAT?" to anyone else's proposal.

If people want to discuss the efficacy, practicality, or the potential popularity of a specific idea, I would appreciate them initiating their own thread and discussing it there, not hijacking this one.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2018, 02:13:14 PM
Hawk, the reality is that threads like these are pointless, because there is too much broken with the multiform
to have any coherent basis to start.

There isn't a single garment, insignia, or wear policy which isn't literally defective, and that doesn't include
or address when people willfully disobey or ignore the regs, and when leaders fail to enforce them.

The same things have been broken for 20 years, countless hours have been spent both solicited and unsolicited
providing corrections to typos and omissions, as well as suggesting reasonable fixes for more "complex" problems,
and for the most part they are largely ignored.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 15, 2018, 02:15:57 PM
Replace GTM badges with Ground Forces badge or expand to cover more than just SAR based ground teams.

Add Incident staff badge.

BTW, both of these have been sent up already. Not which black hole they got sucked into since there no requirement for higher levels to update submitters on status of suggestions/ideas.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Stonewall on October 15, 2018, 02:17:35 PM
Hey, I proposed this idea for ALL members back in 2007. Identical cut to ACU/OCP, but distinctive and functional. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15831.0;attach=4742;image)

But again, I think all AF uniforms for all CAP members should be authorized, regardless of size, weight, and facial hair.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2018, 02:25:13 PM
I thought I already approved this 10 years ago?!?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Stonewall on October 15, 2018, 02:42:12 PM
I thought I already approved this 10 years ago?!?

Yeah, you probably voted FOR the idea. But keep in mind, one of the options was "hold out for ABUs."  I wonder what would happen if I changed the voting options...

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/jywzqzfmpkiytc5rrgp82fhfu4l13shr.png)

I'd also switch to the new name tape/insignia colors. I like the darker blue better than the ultramarine.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: hfriday on October 15, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
Personally, I'd like to see the big pocket badges for technician, senior, and master ratings go away in favor of a smaller badge over the nametape, like the GT and aircrew badges.

As a veteran myself, I'd prefer to keep the ABU, if only because I find it comfortable and don't like looking during a SAR mission like I got lost looking for the 19th hole. The fact that I have so darn much MONEY tied up in my two ABUs is certainly another reason to want to keep them in circulation.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on October 15, 2018, 03:02:32 PM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.
credit: Gunsotsu

If a decent corporate service coat was adopted, followed by some set of standards for using commonly available black tie as a mess dress outfit, most of the resistance to this would go away.   In fact it would not be difficult at all to come up with a corporate service coat that looks substantially BETTER than the airline pilot coat the USAF uses now.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Stonewall on October 15, 2018, 03:06:17 PM
As a veteran myself, I'd prefer to keep the ABU, if only because I find it comfortable and don't like looking during a SAR mission like I got lost looking for the 19th hole. The fact that I have so darn much MONEY tied up in my two ABUs is certainly another reason to want to keep them in circulation.

If you're talking comfort, you'd love the OCPs. The way they're cut and fit are head and shoulders better than ABUs, or BDUs for that matter.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GroundHawg on October 15, 2018, 03:21:46 PM
Hey, I proposed this idea for ALL members back in 2007. Identical cut to ACU/OCP, but distinctive and functional. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15831.0;attach=4742;image)

But again, I think all AF uniforms for all CAP members should be authorized, regardless of size, weight, and facial hair.



I love this, and this would be ideal..... but wont be approved because it makes too much sense.

My alternate reality suggestion: If we ever swap to the OCP uniform, to swap the BBDU top to a TRU top to match the same cut, ie Velcro on the sleeves, two slanted pockets, rank on the front, etc...
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: jb512 on October 16, 2018, 01:06:52 AM
Can we ask to have them turn down the brightness on the ABU NCO insignia? Keep the navy blue background but make the stripes dark grey or tan.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPLTC on October 16, 2018, 02:37:01 AM
Can we ask to have them turn down the brightness on the ABU NCO insignia? Keep the navy blue background but make the stripes dark grey or tan.

Maybe make all insignia safety orange instead?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 16, 2018, 02:47:18 AM
Can we ask to have them turn down the brightness on the ABU NCO insignia? Keep the navy blue background but make the stripes dark grey or tan.

Maybe make all insignia safety orange instead?

I swear to {insert deity of choice here} that I would never say another word about the NCO program if that happened.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv53wDKj/CAP1037-grande.jpg)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 09:52:41 AM
Hey, I proposed this idea for ALL members back in 2007. Identical cut to ACU/OCP, but distinctive and functional. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15831.0;attach=4742;image)

But again, I think all AF uniforms for all CAP members should be authorized, regardless of size, weight, and facial hair.


I'll add this to the list, but there is only one problem: What do we call this? It needs a name/designation. ("Stonewall Utility?")
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:05:17 AM
I'll bite. I had an idea recently based on a new trinket I was given at work. All of us who have served in the military were given an American flag citation bar (like an enamel ribbon) with our service and veteran on it. For instance, mine has USMC Veteran.
I think some sort of CAP ribbon for members who have served in the military should be available, one that they can wear on corporate uniforms or in lieu of wearing military ribbons on USAF style uniforms. My idea would be for a new ribbon design, not service specific. Call it the CAP Military Service Award or something like that. It would greatly reduce the amount of clutter for many of us (with my CAP and mil ribbons together I have 19 as a 2ndLt) and provide a little something to recognize the service of our members who wear corporate uniforms. Thoughts?
You mentioned that you had something with "USMC" on it. Are you looking for just one ribbon, but maybe a device that indicates branch perhaps? There are ribbons for various things that have a specific designation "bar" (for lack of a better term.) Maybe attachments that have the service, or is that beyond what you're thinking?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:12:45 AM
Hawk, the reality is that threads like these are pointless, because there is too much broken with the multiform
to have any coherent basis to start.

There isn't a single garment, insignia, or wear policy which isn't literally defective, and that doesn't include
or address when people willfully disobey or ignore the regs, and when leaders fail to enforce them.

The same things have been broken for 20 years, countless hours have been spent both solicited and unsolicited
providing corrections to typos and omissions, as well as suggesting reasonable fixes for more "complex" problems,
and for the most part they are largely ignored.

If you don't choose to do something, it would be pointless. There are people in CAP that would like to see things cleaned up. Uniforms is just a single area, there are others.

I think if members got more involved, started pushing useful ideas, and then following up, positive change can happen. We want to be professional, and if we dedicate ourselves to that, we can be viewed as professionals. But, we should focus on developing our professionalism, and let the view of it came as it may.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:14:09 AM
Replace GTM badges with Ground Forces badge or expand to cover more than just SAR based ground teams.

Add Incident staff badge.

BTW, both of these have been sent up already. Not which black hole they got sucked into since there no requirement for higher levels to update submitters on status of suggestions/ideas.

Noted. We'd have to come up with criteria and designs, but that can be worked on later.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:17:36 AM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.

Coat only, or a new Corporate Uniform design? I didn't care for HWSRN's coat design, but I had to admit it was actually uniform.

Right now, three people could wear the blazer combo, be completely within the manual, but with three different color variations of "blue" and "gray."
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:20:22 AM
Personally, I'd like to see the big pocket badges for technician, senior, and master ratings go away in favor of a smaller badge over the nametape, like the GT and aircrew badges.

As a veteran myself, I'd prefer to keep the ABU, if only because I find it comfortable and don't like looking during a SAR mission like I got lost looking for the 19th hole. The fact that I have so darn much MONEY tied up in my two ABUs is certainly another reason to want to keep them in circulation.

Basically, eliminate the pocket badges(which is different in placement for females), and replace them with designs more akin to Air Force occupational badges?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 16, 2018, 10:21:57 AM
The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: hfriday on October 16, 2018, 11:57:06 AM
Quote
Basically, eliminate the pocket badges(which is different in placement for females), and replace them with designs more akin to Air Force occupational badges?

Yeah, that's the general idea. I know the prevailing wind here seems to be against going more USAF-style, but if we are going to have USAF-style uniforms, we should be more aligned with them in general, not less.

Probably the biggest issue with CAP uniforms is there's just so much stuff on them - I've heard criticism that we look like "NASCAR drivers," not the USAF Auxiliary, and it's not an illegitimate complaint.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on October 16, 2018, 03:32:51 PM
It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 16, 2018, 03:37:45 PM
It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
Which uniform?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Chappie on October 16, 2018, 03:39:06 PM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.

Coat only, or a new Corporate Uniform design? I didn't care for HWSRN's coat design, but I had to admit it was actually uniform.

Right now, three people could wear the blazer combo, be completely within the manual, but with three different color variations of "blue" and "gray."

The different color variations of the “gray” slacks have been an object of discussion for as long as I can remember.   Other organizations have similar issues.  I serve as a Docent aboard the USS Midway Museum.   For all the volunteers the basic uniform is the approved shirt of the department that you work in and khaki trousers.  One can only imagine the color variations and the type of material seen in this uniform requirement regarding trousers. 
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on October 16, 2018, 04:21:59 PM
Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GaryVC on October 16, 2018, 04:28:43 PM
The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.

Actually I am just not a fan of the encased plastic grade. Cloth (lots of different types) worked fine when I was on active duty.

I forgot one other complaint as I was thinking about senior uniforms. I don't care for either of the cadet officer shoulder boards. I think (and have since they were introduced) that the shoulder boards for the service dress are too gaudy. I also believe that the grade insignia on the black shoulder boards is too small. At a minimum I would be in favor of rotating the cadet grade insignia 90 degrees (the way it used to be worn on the service dress) and using full-sized insignia.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on October 16, 2018, 04:44:13 PM
Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.

Incident staff is far more than just the 4 you list. Somewhere on here is my full proposal covering all the ICP positions, with different levels based on what level on the IC org charts the position is.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 16, 2018, 05:20:27 PM
The only change I would like to see is to be able to wear the blue cloth rank insignia on the flight suit. Otherwise everything else is fine with me.

Allow blue cloth rank on flightsuits, or just cloth rank? Blue would stand out, just wondering if you are more interested in lower maintenance cloth rather than the plastic rank insignia.

Actually I am just not a fan of the encased plastic grade. Cloth (lots of different types) worked fine when I was on active duty.

I forgot one other complaint as I was thinking about senior uniforms. I don't care for either of the cadet officer shoulder boards. I think (and have since they were introduced) that the shoulder boards for the service dress are too gaudy. I also believe that the grade insignia on the black shoulder boards is too small. At a minimum I would be in favor of rotating the cadet grade insignia 90 degrees (the way it used to be worn on the service dress) and using full-sized insignia.

Black shoulder boards?????  Are you referring to the cloth blue epaulet sleeves?  The only place I've seen black shoulder boards is AFROTC.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on October 16, 2018, 07:26:08 PM
Add Incident staff badge.

I had actually thought this out at one point but never suggested it ad I doubted I had any hope of results.

AOBD / GBD = Basic (and let the ground team master badge actually BE that)
PSC = Senior
OSC = Master

And when/if you become an IC, that badge replaces this one as it then becomes redundant.

Incident staff is far more than just the 4 you list. Somewhere on here is my full proposal covering all the ICP positions, with different levels based on what level on the IC org charts the position is.

That was just a starting point.  Probably the basic badge could be defined simply as "qualified as a branch director" and the senior could be "as a section chief" though I would keep OSC as the defining qualification for the master badge, since the next step from there is IC.  I haven't seen what you worked up but I would probably agree with most if not all of it.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GaryVC on October 16, 2018, 08:39:12 PM

Black shoulder boards?????  Are you referring to the cloth blue epaulet sleeves?  The only place I've seen black shoulder boards is AFROTC.

Your right, they are dark blue. My point still stands, however.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on October 16, 2018, 08:58:56 PM
It would be nice if we had the diagonal pockets on the blouse.
Which uniform?

For the BDUs
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: HandsomeWalt_USMC on October 16, 2018, 09:01:52 PM
I'll bite. I had an idea recently based on a new trinket I was given at work. All of us who have served in the military were given an American flag citation bar (like an enamel ribbon) with our service and veteran on it. For instance, mine has USMC Veteran.
I think some sort of CAP ribbon for members who have served in the military should be available, one that they can wear on corporate uniforms or in lieu of wearing military ribbons on USAF style uniforms. My idea would be for a new ribbon design, not service specific. Call it the CAP Military Service Award or something like that. It would greatly reduce the amount of clutter for many of us (with my CAP and mil ribbons together I have 19 as a 2ndLt) and provide a little something to recognize the service of our members who wear corporate uniforms. Thoughts?
You mentioned that you had something with "USMC" on it. Are you looking for just one ribbon, but maybe a device that indicates branch perhaps? There are ribbons for various things that have a specific designation "bar" (for lack of a better term.) Maybe attachments that have the service, or is that beyond what you're thinking?

You could do attachments, but I only had a ribbon in mind. I read through the old thread about that idea and someone did suggest attachments.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: shuman14 on October 17, 2018, 05:24:44 AM
My suggestion would to merge all of the Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system.

The Ribbon/Medal Drape of the Membership Award would be used as the primary Ribbon of my proposed Professional Development and Education Award (PDEA):


Level 1 - PDEA Ribbon only, no Device. Mini-Medal - Current Membership Award Medallion.

Level 2 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Leadership Award Medallion Becomes the Level 2 Medallion.

Crossfield Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Crossfield Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.
 
Yeager Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Silver Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Yeager Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.

[If both the Crossfield and Yeager Awards have been earned, the PDEA Ribbon will have Numeral "2" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. The Mini-Medal will use the Yeager Award Medallion and a numeral "2" Device and a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster will be worn on the Medal Drape.]

Level 3 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "3" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Loening Award Medallion.

Level 4 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "4" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Garber Award Medallion.

Level 5 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "5" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Wilson Award Medallion.

Bronze, Silver and Gold Stars for Squadron Officer School, Air Command & Staff College or Air War College respectively will also be added to the PDEA Ribbon and Medal Drape.

A maximum of four devices may be worn on a PDEA Ribbon so if a CAP member was to complete all of the above, the PDEA Ribbon would have a numeral "5" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and one Star for the highest USAF School completed. The Mini-Medal would use the Wilson Award Medallion with a Silver Oak leaf Cluster, a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and a Star for the highest USAF School completed on the Medal Drape.

Prior Service USAF Officers who join CAP can wear the appropriate level Star for their highest USAF School completed on the PDEA Ribbon. So it would be possible to wear a PDEA Ribbon for Levels 1 thru 3 with a Star on it, unlike the current Wilson/Garber Awards limitations.

The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

The current Certificates for the Professional Development levels and the Aerospace Education Awards will continued to be used until current stocks are exhausted. New Certificates will be ordered to reflect the new terminology and single Ribbon/Medal Drape color scheme.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.



Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 17, 2018, 09:56:46 AM
My suggestion would to merge all of the Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system.

The Ribbon/Medal Drape of the Membership Award would be used as the primary Ribbon of my proposed Professional Development and Education Award (PDEA):


Level 1 - PDEA Ribbon only, no Device. Mini-Medal - Current Membership Award Medallion.

Level 2 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Leadership Award Medallion Becomes the Level 2 Medallion.

Crossfield Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Crossfield Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.
 
Yeager Award - (Normally earned after achieving Level 2) PDEA Ribbon with numeral "2" Device and Silver Oak Leaf Cluster. Mini-Medal - Current Yeager Award Medallion and numeral "2" Device will be worn on the Medal Drape.

[If both the Crossfield and Yeager Awards have been earned, the PDEA Ribbon will have Numeral "2" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster and Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster. The Mini-Medal will use the Yeager Award Medallion and a numeral "2" Device and a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster will be worn on the Medal Drape.]

Level 3 - PDEA Ribbon with numeral "3" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Loening Award Medallion.

Level 4 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "4" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Garber Award Medallion.

Level 5 - PDEA Ribbon with a numeral "5" Device. Mini-Medal - Current Wilson Award Medallion.

Bronze, Silver and Gold Stars for Squadron Officer School, Air Command & Staff College or Air War College respectively will also be added to the PDEA Ribbon and Medal Drape.

A maximum of four devices may be worn on a PDEA Ribbon so if a CAP member was to complete all of the above, the PDEA Ribbon would have a numeral "5" Device, Silver Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and one Star for the highest USAF School completed. The Mini-Medal would use the Wilson Award Medallion with a Silver Oak leaf Cluster, a Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster and a Star for the highest USAF School completed on the Medal Drape.

Prior Service USAF Officers who join CAP can wear the appropriate level Star for their highest USAF School completed on the PDEA Ribbon. So it would be possible to wear a PDEA Ribbon for Levels 1 thru 3 with a Star on it, unlike the current Wilson/Garber Awards limitations.

The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

The current Certificates for the Professional Development levels and the Aerospace Education Awards will continued to be used until current stocks are exhausted. New Certificates will be ordered to reflect the new terminology and single Ribbon/Medal Drape color scheme.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.

Very comprehensive indeed. For the purposes of a short list item, what do we call this? "Merge of Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system?"

Trying to keep the list more of a bullet type format.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: supertigerCH on October 17, 2018, 06:43:03 PM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2IHHW5ujMsm7zwKc34iwCA&q=polish+air+force+service+uniform&oq=polish+air+force+service+uniform&gs_l=img.3...86419.90092..90477...0.0..0.152.1025.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0CKb5tDyY2Y#imgrc=bzB9EfDZdreVTM:)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: shuman14 on October 17, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
Very comprehensive indeed. For the purposes of a short list item, what do we call this? "Merge of Professional Development Program and Aerospace Education Award Ribbons/Medals into ONE comprehensive Medal system?"

Trying to keep the list more of a bullet type format.

That works fine for me.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 17, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2IHHW5ujMsm7zwKc34iwCA&q=polish+air+force+service+uniform&oq=polish+air+force+service+uniform&gs_l=img.3...86419.90092..90477...0.0..0.152.1025.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0CKb5tDyY2Y#imgrc=bzB9EfDZdreVTM:)

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on October 17, 2018, 07:06:04 PM
Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

^ All of this.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 17, 2018, 07:15:02 PM
The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

Not all Specialty tracks have badges.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.

Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 17, 2018, 09:06:02 PM
Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform.

If I'm reading you correctly here, you're stating the standards make it pretty clear that members decide which uniform they should buy falls directly on where they fall upon the height/weight chart? This gives the USAF-style uniform a higher presence over the corporate uniform for those capable of wearing both. If that's what you're saying, I'm afraid I don't agree.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 17, 2018, 10:01:47 PM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2IHHW5ujMsm7zwKc34iwCA&q=polish+air+force+service+uniform&oq=polish+air+force+service+uniform&gs_l=img.3...86419.90092..90477...0.0..0.152.1025.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0CKb5tDyY2Y#imgrc=bzB9EfDZdreVTM:)

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: shuman14 on October 17, 2018, 11:21:55 PM
Quote
Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.

And they still will earn PD Awards, it will just be one Medal/Ribbon now. Very much in line with the USAF and US Army NCO Professional Development Ribbons.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 12:24:16 AM
50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.

Your "area" is California and you meet on a military base.

Most of the real CAP meets in the lounge of FBOs and goes to McDonald's for the after-meeting mixer.

All you need to do is look around at most activities, or spend a little time on Flicker, Smug Mug, and
Commercial Media.  It's easily 50%, and probably higher.

That's especially true when members acknowledge that the weight standards are a number, not a "feeling".
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: francisderosa16 on October 18, 2018, 12:28:02 AM
Have our name tapes be Velcro so we don't have to sew them on, and once again, green boots are a desire, [or tan boots, anything but black]
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 12:31:58 AM
Quote
Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.

And they still will earn PD Awards, it will just be one Medal/Ribbon now. Very much in line with the USAF and US Army NCO Professional Development Ribbons.

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 18, 2018, 03:24:24 AM
50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.

Your "area" is California and you meet on a military base.

Most of the real CAP meets in the lounge of FBOs and goes to McDonald's for the after-meeting mixer.

All you need to do is look around at most activities, or spend a little time on Flicker, Smug Mug, and
Commercial Media.  It's easily 50%, and probably higher.

That's especially true when members acknowledge that the weight standards are a number, not a "feeling".


A "military" base that has exactly 6 Active Duty Navy personnel and a thousand or so Department of the Navy civilians and contractors.
Not exactly a target rich environment for seeing really fit people!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 03:31:54 AM
A "military" base that has exactly 6 Active Duty Navy personnel and a thousand or so Department of the Navy civilians and contractors.
Not exactly a target rich environment for seeing really fit people!

Fair enough.

With that said, you know I am correct, and if it turns out it's 48.76%, or 42.9647726256% the point stands.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: shuman14 on October 18, 2018, 05:22:27 AM
Quote
And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 18, 2018, 05:38:01 AM
Quote
And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?


You do realize that the people who post here on CAP Talk are not your typical CAP member, right?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Alaric on October 18, 2018, 12:37:32 PM
Quote
And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?

I read CAPTalk and very few people are complaining about the Third World Dictator look.  Also, they can short stack if its an issue
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 18, 2018, 05:53:37 PM
Quote
From Shuman

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.


Moot point. You are not obligated to buy one every time you complete an Education either. You choose to do so.


Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: jb512 on October 18, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Quote
And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?


You do realize that the people who post here on CAP Talk are not your typical CAP member, right?

The typical CAP member usually lasts though their first 5 to 10 posts here before they are shamed away.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 06:58:22 PM
The typical CAP member usually lasts though their first 5 to 10 posts here before they are shamed away.

Shamed away?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Dwight Dutton on October 18, 2018, 07:05:25 PM
Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

^ All of this.
They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 18, 2018, 07:32:46 PM
They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.

Well that's the thing about the chain of command, just because your idea gets presented to the leadership doesn't mean they'll do anything with it. Sometimes the leadership won't agree with you or they decide there are more important matters to work on.

The competency of our leaders always seems to be judged on the criteria of how often they accept our ideas.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 09:16:14 PM
They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.

Well that's the thing about the chain of command, just because your idea gets presented to the leadership doesn't mean they'll do anything with it. Sometimes the leadership won't agree with you or they decide there are more important matters to work on.

The competency of our leaders always seems to be judged on the criteria of how often they accept our ideas.

Fair enough, however in a volunteer paradigm, the appearance of transparency and considering
new ideas is at least as important as actually considering them, doubly so when those opinions and
ideas are explicitly solicited, and then clearly ignored.

It's one thing to say "this is our track, lead or follow, but we go here", and another when you can't even be bothered
to review documents for spelling, grammar, and accuracy, which is the case with the last release of 39-1,
which was published broken, even though any number of members sent in the corrections, and has now sat for
over 4 years as-is with no indication of any upcoming fixes.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: francisderosa16 on October 18, 2018, 09:31:22 PM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.

I disagree. I think having our senior wear USAF style uniforms are good especially in emergency situations, [SAR, disaster relief, etc.] That way wee all look like we are on the same team.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2018, 10:46:54 PM
I disagree. I think having our senior wear USAF style uniforms are good especially in emergency situations, [SAR, disaster relief, etc.] That way wee all look like we are on the same team.

Except seniors aren't in the same uniform, there are actually five (5) field uniform variants right now, and most of the
world performs SAR in golfs shirts these days.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: hamburgee on October 18, 2018, 11:49:10 PM
I don't know if other people posted this already, however:

- Removal of (the majority of) patches from ABUs (and in turn BBDUs), such as organizational patches & NCSA patches, IMO it should be kept to a minimum. The Air Force never permitted the wear of patches on ABUs (save for about 2, 4 counting Fire Protection and Security badges), and it's just silly that they were authorized on our uniform.

- This probably will not happen, but allow wear of earned military awards on corporate uniforms, same as AF-style uniforms. Or, at the least, badges, such as parachutist badges, AF occupational badges, et cetera.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on October 19, 2018, 02:25:57 PM
I disagree. I think having our senior wear USAF style uniforms are good especially in emergency situations, [SAR, disaster relief, etc.] That way wee all look like we are on the same team.

Except seniors aren't in the same uniform, there are actually five (5) field uniform variants right now, and most of the
world performs SAR in golfs shirts these days.

I think there's an issue in breaking down what "SAR" is---SAR is a mission, not a functional task.

The person driving the van is most likely going to be in a golf shirt. The person out in the woods should be in fatigues. You should be in an appropriate tactical-style uniform that protects you from the elements of the environment in which you operate.

Having a number of uniform options isn't inappropriate. But they should be worn dependent on the conditions of the task. The one thing for certain is that a common set of fatigues is equally appropriate to field use and "office wear." But a short-sleeved polo really isn't appropriate in woodland or 'back country' which may require you to be able to clip things onto your blouse, utilize those fancy pockets, add an extra-thick layer of clothing, and keep your sleeves down.


All that said, this topic has turned into the usual 5 pages of challenging points.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GroundHawg on October 19, 2018, 03:07:17 PM
I disagree. I think having our senior wear USAF style uniforms are good especially in emergency situations, [SAR, disaster relief, etc.] That way wee all look like we are on the same team.

Except seniors aren't in the same uniform, there are actually five (5) field uniform variants right now, and most of the
world performs SAR in golfs shirts these days.

I have not found that to be the case, and honestly couldn't tell you the last time I saw someone in a polo outside of CAP.  Most ES, Police, Fire, SAR, DR, etc... teams that I have come in contact with wear some type of brightly colored top with cargo pants. Usually a tshirt in summer and a bdu or similar top in spring and fall with a coat or turnout gear in winter. Many of the smaller fire departments and generally the more rural and less well funded, will wear jeans. I have seen some wearing a coverall/flight suit, but they are a minority. All wear a helmet of some type, the more professional units wearing teamwendy, petzl, etc.. and fire units usually wearing their bullard wildfire helmets on double duty.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: GroundHawg on October 19, 2018, 03:13:31 PM
A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2IHHW5ujMsm7zwKc34iwCA&q=polish+air+force+service+uniform&oq=polish+air+force+service+uniform&gs_l=img.3...86419.90092..90477...0.0..0.152.1025.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0CKb5tDyY2Y#imgrc=bzB9EfDZdreVTM:)

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.


Could not agree with this more.  :clap:
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 19, 2018, 03:41:07 PM
I have not found that to be the case, and honestly couldn't tell you the last time I saw someone in a polo outside of CAP.  Most ES, Police, Fire, SAR, DR, etc... teams that I have come in contact with wear some type of brightly colored top with cargo pants. Usually a tshirt in summer and a bdu or similar top in spring and fall with a coat or turnout gear in winter. Many of the smaller fire departments and generally the more rural and less well funded, will wear jeans. I have seen some wearing a coverall/flight suit, but they are a minority. All wear a helmet of some type, the more professional units wearing teamwendy, petzl, etc.. and fire units usually wearing their bullard wildfire helmets on double duty.

In what context, and are you talking urban or rural.

Because in my parts, in the ICP, it's nothing but golf shirts and t-shirts on fire guys, and golf shirts or typical daily PD uniforms on the LEOs.
EMA managers and government officials are all golf, all the time unless they have a suit on for the cameras.

Even in the field it's mostly golf shirts or t-shirts.  Yes, tac pants and robust shoes if you're in the woods, but for the typical
day-to-day ops, it's golfs and t's.

CAP invests a lot of time and effort in equipping and training its members for missions for that it gets on a statistically zero
basis, while ignoring the day-to-reality of what it really does.

Members don't need battle-rattle to man a POD, or tromp in the woods for a few hours looking for a lost child.

In the few places those missions are more common, then use common sense.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on October 19, 2018, 06:27:19 PM
In response to the original post re: "Looking for the ideas. What would you change? Add? Remove?"

The aviator shirt uniform, in my opinion, should include a cover, such as the senior member flight cap worn by those eligible to wear the USAF-style uniform.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 20, 2018, 07:50:52 AM
The aviator shirt uniform, in my opinion, should include a cover, such as the senior member flight cap worn by those eligible to wear the USAF-style uniform.

I assume by "cover" you mean a cap or headgear. Currently our rules prohibit mixing USAF-style uniform parts with corporate uniform parts (not that our current rules should impact what you'd like to see). For whatever reason, the USAF is being persnickety on which volunteers in CAP can wear uniform parts styled after their uniforms.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 20, 2018, 08:22:38 AM
I'd like to see the requirement to spend hard earned money on a uniform I don't want or need removed from the rules. Have members purchase uniforms they need based upon the work they do.

Unenforceable rules that waste people's money should be the easiest low-hanging fruit to pick.

For the field where you're *actually* in the field, our BBDU uniform with some sort of bright ANSI undershirt and bright ANSI stripes built into the BBDU jacket, along with some sort of reflective headgear would seem the most appropriate for search and rescue work. It certainly would align us with other SAR agencies across the country. Camouflage with a ANSI vest over it is a ridiculous example of military intelligence.

The corporate working uniform is actually pretty good. It's flexible (dress pants for formal meetings, tactical pants for missions and such). My only complaint has been durability, which seems to have been solved with the new material. Nothing really to change there.

Flight suits for our type of flying is for appearances only as they don't provide any real safety value (especially on their own without gloves, helmets, and so forth). But they're also universal in professional flying, from military, law enforcement, medical, and even the war birds guys. Keeping the patch count minimal is important, let's not look like NASCAR. The USAF also needs to acknowledge that they don't own the market on sage green bags.

As for the formal uniform stuff, the only change I'd like to see is everyone in the same uniform. If we can't get the USAF to treat everyone in CAP the same, then it's time to say thanks, but we'll do something on our own that's more inclusive. The USAF has to stop telling us how awesome we are as volunteers, but not awesome enough to wear a uniform based on theirs.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on October 20, 2018, 02:39:33 PM
The aviator shirt uniform, in my opinion, should include a cover, such as the senior member flight cap worn by those eligible to wear the USAF-style uniform.

I assume by "cover" you mean a cap or headgear. Currently our rules prohibit mixing USAF-style uniform parts with corporate uniform parts (not that our current rules should impact what you'd like to see). For whatever reason, the USAF is being persnickety on which volunteers in CAP can wear uniform parts styled after their uniforms.

Yes, "cover" is common parlance for "hat" in miliary-type settings and references.

As far as your point re: "USAF-style uniform parts with corporate uniform parts", I don't see how that would apply to a particular style of cover when you consider that the aviator shirt contains epaulets, also used on the USAF-style uniform.  Not to mention that flight caps (ala the USAF, USN, USMC) have been used by non-military entities as part of their uniforms as well.

In my opinion, the aviator shirt uniform looks and feels incomplete without a cover.  I'd be interested to know if this was ever discussed among the powers that be who decide on CAP uniforms and why the flight cap was done away with for senior members.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on October 20, 2018, 02:41:34 PM
The USAF has to stop telling us how awesome we are as volunteers, but not awesome enough to wear a uniform based on theirs.

Agree 100%.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on October 20, 2018, 02:43:44 PM
I'd like to see the requirement to spend hard earned money on a uniform I don't want or need removed from the rules. Have members purchase uniforms they need based upon the work they do.

Unenforceable rules that waste people's money should be the easiest low-hanging fruit to pick.

For the field where you're *actually* in the field, our BBDU uniform with some sort of bright ANSI undershirt and bright ANSI stripes built into the BBDU jacket, along with some sort of reflective headgear would seem the most appropriate for search and rescue work. It certainly would align us with other SAR agencies across the country. Camouflage with a ANSI vest over it is a ridiculous example of military intelligence.

The corporate working uniform is actually pretty good. It's flexible (dress pants for formal meetings, tactical pants for missions and such). My only complaint has been durability, which seems to have been solved with the new material. Nothing really to change there.

Flight suits for our type of flying is for appearances only as they don't provide any real safety value (especially on their own without gloves, helmets, and so forth). But they're also universal in professional flying, from military, law enforcement, medical, and even the war birds guys. Keeping the patch count minimal is important, let's not look like NASCAR. The USAF also needs to acknowledge that they don't own the market on sage green bags.

As for the formal uniform stuff, the only change I'd like to see is everyone in the same uniform. If we can't get the USAF to treat everyone in CAP the same, then it's time to say thanks, but we'll do something on our own that's more inclusive. The USAF has to stop telling us how awesome we are as volunteers, but not awesome enough to wear a uniform based on theirs.

You've got a few things in there.

To reduce it to bullet statements, I'm thinking the following:

1. Eliminate the "minimum basic uniform" requirement, and allow members to obtain a uniform appropriate to their job functions.
2. Develop a field based uniform with high visibility markings.
3. Allow the sage green flightsuit for all members. (Eliminate blue, perhaps?)
4. Allow the wear of the Air Force variant (blues) by all members.

Would that be fairly representative of what you're trying to say?
Title: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms? Endgame
Post by: Hawk200 on October 20, 2018, 02:53:57 PM
It's been a week, and I'll probably start compiling a list tonight, and post it in a day or so. I'm considering tonight the "closeout."

The list will be in the order that things were posted in this thread, and numbered based on that.

If there are any other ideas that people would like to add, today is the time.

I'm compiling everything that was in this thread, agreed with or not, or even things that probably won't fly because the Air Force wouldn't approve. But, since it was placed here, it will be included. 
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: etodd on October 20, 2018, 03:55:51 PM


..... most of the world performs SAR in golfs shirts these days.


Thats certainly what I see in my Wing at Mission Base, most pilots, and then camo for ground teams.

It seems to all be so regional (Wings).  Some are more "casual" than others with the uniform issue.  Hence the options.  If you took away options and made it all limited by National ... then yes, you'll have half the members ticked off.

Incident Commanders already have the power to say "wear this or don't show".  But they'd rather have a full turnout.

Bottom line, its always going to be contentious no matter what gets proposed and implemented.

Give folks choices, so they can wear what they are comfortable wearing for the tasks.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: supertigerCH on October 20, 2018, 06:43:59 PM

Here's my original posting... with the picture that I originally intended to add to it (as an example) =

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Force#/media/File:Wreczenie_sztandaru_9_plm.jpg)



A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.


Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2IHHW5ujMsm7zwKc34iwCA&q=polish+air+force+service+uniform&oq=polish+air+force+service+uniform&gs_l=img.3...86419.90092..90477...0.0..0.152.1025.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.0CKb5tDyY2Y#imgrc=bzB9EfDZdreVTM:)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 20, 2018, 06:50:44 PM
To reduce it to bullet statements, I'm thinking the following:

1. Eliminate the "minimum basic uniform" requirement, and allow members to obtain a uniform appropriate to their job functions.
2. Develop a field based uniform with high visibility markings.
3. Allow the sage green flightsuit for all members. (Eliminate blue, perhaps?)
4. Allow the wear of the Air Force variant (blues) by all members.

Would that be fairly representative of what you're trying to say?

I think it would be a bit more nuanced for #4 to say one (optional) fancy uniform for everyone. I don't particularly care if it's the USAF-Style uniform or a in-house uniform, just pick one.

But thanks for demonstrating I'm clearly too long winded :D
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 20, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Yes, "cover" is common parlance for "hat" in miliary-type settings and references.

It's not a CAP term (at least it doesn't exist in any of our documentation), so you may want to consider using CAP terminology when speaking to a CAP audience.

In my opinion, the aviator shirt uniform looks and feels incomplete without a cover.

Maybe I misunderstood you, I thought you were suggesting you simply wanted to wear the flight cap currently worn with the USAF-style uniform with the aviator shirt uniform. That we can't do, but I suppose in theory a flight cap of a different color with different markings would be allowed. To that, I'd ask why? A flight cap is just a useful as a beret when it comes to headgear, if I'm going to wear a hat it's going to be useful (shade me from the sun).

Just for completeness, headgear is authorized for the aviator shirt uniform:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
Headgear. Headgear is not required with this uniform combination. However, the CAP baseball cap may be worn. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. Appropriate civilian headgear may be worn during inclement weather.

I'd be interested to know if this was ever discussed among the powers that be who decide on CAP uniforms and why the flight cap was done away with for senior members.

Senior members can't wear flight caps? When did that happen?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 20, 2018, 07:10:12 PM
Incident Commanders already have the power to say "wear this or don't show".  But they'd rather have a full turnout.

A smart commander knows just how far their influence goes. Twice in my CAP career I've seen a leader try to implement "uniformity" at an activity only to issue a retraction when it became clear the majority of needed people weren't going to show.

Quote
Bottom line, its always going to be contentious no matter what gets proposed and implemented.
Give folks choices, so they can wear what they are comfortable wearing for the tasks.

Good fashion, like good comedy, is such a personal reaction there's no way everyone will be happy. But giving people options will help in keeping more people happy and I'd argue CAP actually does a decent job with that when it comes to corporate uniforms.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 20, 2018, 08:33:13 PM
Headgear other than the baseball cap when using the Aviator shirt. In my opinion, the baseball cap is not professionally looking enough to be combined with the Aviator shirt.

I would prefer the service cap, or a Kepi, to the baseball cap. The service cap is more distinguished than the baseball cap! Also protection is the same whether using a service cap or a baseball cap.



Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: foo on October 20, 2018, 09:30:51 PM
For corporate uniforms that currently allow the Black Fleece, also allow CAP rank tabs to be worn on any commercially available black ECWCS parka.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on October 21, 2018, 03:28:40 AM
It's not a CAP term (at least it doesn't exist in any of our documentation), so you may want to consider using CAP terminology when speaking to a CAP audience.

I like using "cover", thanks.

Maybe I misunderstood you, I thought you were suggesting you simply wanted to wear the flight cap currently worn with the USAF-style uniform with the aviator shirt uniform. That we can't do, but I suppose in theory a flight cap of a different color with different markings would be allowed.

Yes, you misunderstood.  I was talking about the style, not the same item.  It would be nice if that type of cover were allowed as part of the aviator shirt uniform.

Just for completeness, headgear is authorized for the aviator shirt uniform

Yes, I'm aware of what 39-1 says in regard to headgear with the aviator shirt uniform.  A ball cap looks crappy and unprofessional with a dressier uniform.  Everyone wears ball caps today.  Wearing a flight cap would set us apart and have a dressier, more professional look.

Senior members can't wear flight caps? When did that happen?

There's no flight cap available for senior members unless you are wearing the USAF uniform.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CFToaster on October 22, 2018, 03:30:36 PM
For corporate uniforms that currently allow the Black Fleece, also allow CAP rank tabs to be worn on any commercially available black ECWCS parka.

Any uniform combination for which the Black Fleece is authorized, so are, "Appropriate civilian outergarments." Your Black ECWCS parka is already in regs, mate!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 22, 2018, 06:53:39 PM
Wearing a flight cap would set us apart and have a dressier, more professional look.

Well it would certainly set us apart. I doubt the USAF will ever sign off on it though, the whole point of the corporate uniform is for it to not look like the USAF style uniforms. We can't just make our own corporate uniform that "borrows" a number of USAF and military designs and declare it good. We tried that about 10 years ago and it caused.... issues.

I agree ball caps are not great for dressier uniforms, I'm not sure what would be appropriate with the blazer. As a society, we don't seem to be into formal headgear anymore. A nice fedora?  Otherwise plenty of police, fire, and ems organizations wear ball caps with their uniforms and nobody seems to accuse them of being unprofessional. But they tend to be more worried about function than CAP does.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 22, 2018, 07:30:33 PM
How about a Stetson?

Many Sheriff deputies and state police wear one, and they look distinguished!

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: THRAWN on October 22, 2018, 08:21:15 PM
Worked for Kilgore....

How about a Stetson?

Many Sheriff deputies and state police wear one, and they look distinguished!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on October 22, 2018, 09:13:32 PM
How about a Stetson?

Many Sheriff deputies and state police wear one, and they look distinguished!

Do you have any idea at all how much a Stetson costs?  Hint, they're not cheap!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 22, 2018, 09:20:01 PM
Yeah.

El Presidente would make us look really, really distinguished!


Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: francisderosa16 on October 22, 2018, 10:04:35 PM
Also, me and my friends in CAP agree with this, we need Velcro name tapes, we hate sewing them on. Often times the thread will undo as well, so once again, Velcro.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2018, 10:07:54 PM
Also, me and my friends in CAP agree with this, we need Velcro name tapes, we hate sewing them on. Often times the thread will undo as well, so once again, Velcro.

It's already been pointed out that using velcro for nametapes actually doubles the amount of sewing you have to do.

If your thread is coming undone, learn how to sew better or have it done by the nice lady on the corner.

And seriously, how often do you and your CAP friends actually have to change your nametapes?  The average cadet
has one set of field uniforms, and in many cases leave the organization before they outgrow the uniforms.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: francisderosa16 on October 22, 2018, 10:17:31 PM
We re-sew them a lot, we have problems with the name tapes staying on. They just are thick material. The thread breaks randomly. So, I tried stronger thread, AND IT BROKE MORE???? [BTW too hard for my sewing machine and my needles brake every time we do it with our hands.]
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 22, 2018, 10:28:15 PM
We re-sew them a lot, we have problems with the name tapes staying on. They just are thick material. The thread breaks randomly. So, I tried stronger thread, AND IT BROKE MORE???? [BTW too hard for my sewing machine and my needles brake every time we do it with our hands.]

CAP nametapes, especially the cloth ones (vs. the olde school webbed ones), should not be breaking needles.
Take this from someone who has essentially become the tailor for anyone who is willing to come to my house.

I can assure you sewing the nametape onto the velcro is >not< easier (in fact it's considerably more difficult),
and if your tapes won't stay on now, the first time you would pull a tape off, you're likely to just pull it off the velcro.

You need to adjust your machine, have it serviced, or practice more, and if they are coming undone, either your stitch
is too wide, or there's something else wrong with your technique.  It's sounds like your thread tension might be too high,
or the bobbin case is broken.

There's no reason you should be breaking needles.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on October 22, 2018, 10:40:54 PM
Second that. I have been sewing stuff on uniforms since I was 15, and it's all mostly a matter of technique. Breaking needles is frequently caused by hurrying the material through the machine. Let the machine do the work.

Sent using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on October 23, 2018, 12:51:13 AM
To add to this, I had a cadet actually do this once because he thought he was told it was ok by a high-ranking senior member.

I can tell you, having seen it in person, it looks like trash on BDUs, provable more so on ABUs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: foo on October 23, 2018, 12:59:42 AM
For corporate uniforms that currently allow the Black Fleece, also allow CAP rank tabs to be worn on any commercially available black ECWCS parka.

Any uniform combination for which the Black Fleece is authorized, so are, "Appropriate civilian outergarments." Your Black ECWCS parka is already in regs, mate!

You missed the point: I want to wear CAP rank on my black ECWCS parka, which is not currently authorized.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Stonewall on October 23, 2018, 01:37:56 AM
For corporate uniforms that currently allow the Black Fleece, also allow CAP rank tabs to be worn on any commercially available black ECWCS parka.

Any uniform combination for which the Black Fleece is authorized, so are, "Appropriate civilian outergarments." Your Black ECWCS parka is already in regs, mate!

You missed the point: I want to wear CAP rank on my black ECWCS parka, which is not currently authorized.

Didn't stop a couple people from doing it this past weekend. First time I had seen it and thought maybe it was now allowed and I missed the memo.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on October 23, 2018, 07:21:49 AM
Didn't stop a couple people from doing it this past weekend. First time I had seen it and thought maybe it was now allowed and I missed the memo.

If ya'll (not Stonewall) are gonna make me purchase a uniform I'll never wear, then ya'll (not Stonewall) are gonna have to wear your uniforms within the rules.

Otherwise that just ain't fair.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: foo on October 23, 2018, 02:52:48 PM
Didn't stop a couple people from doing it this past weekend. First time I had seen it and thought maybe it was now allowed and I missed the memo.

If ya'll (not Stonewall) are gonna make me purchase a uniform I'll never wear, then ya'll (not Stonewall) are gonna have to wear your uniforms within the rules.

Otherwise that just ain't fair.

If only that were a compelling argument for folks unconcerned with following rules, or for commanders unwilling to enforce them...
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: supertigerCH on October 25, 2018, 11:56:02 PM

Did this thread get locked already? 

I can't see anything that says it's locked... but I can't make edits to any of my previous posts.


(then again, a new/second thread on this same topic has already been opened... so maybe that's why?  still not sure why i can't edit here though...)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on October 25, 2018, 11:58:00 PM
It's not locked.

After a certain period of time you can't modify a post.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPLTC on October 26, 2018, 12:16:59 AM
How about a Stetson?
Many Sheriff deputies and state police wear one, and they look distinguished!

And riding boots?
And spurs?
Now you're speaking my language.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: supertigerCH on October 26, 2018, 11:14:07 PM
It's not locked.

After a certain period of time you can't modify a post.


well darn.  thanks for clearing that up.

ya... once I hit "post" on that message, and it posted... i thought, well it doesn't seem locked.  i never realized there was a time limit on edits before.  guess i don't edit enough.   :)

oh well.  thanks.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: ZigZag911 on October 31, 2018, 04:03:42 AM
Second the motion!
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: francisderosa16 on November 03, 2018, 11:04:00 PM
What would be nice for CAP uniforms are green tapers with white letters, instead of blue. And having all patches be in 2 colors, [like how the USAF did with the ABU's insignia]. Also any color boot but black. Many have said that Senior Members should have Polos, but I think uniforms are nicer.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: etodd on November 04, 2018, 01:43:57 AM

Many have said that Senior Members should have Polos, but I think uniforms are nicer.

The polo is a uniform.  ;D

I spent most of today at the airport giving O-Rides. I don't care about "looking nice". I like to be comfortable, and the polo looks just fine.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: supertigerCH on November 04, 2018, 06:08:45 PM
What would be nice for CAP uniforms are green tapers with white letters, instead of blue.

green tapers?  ;D
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on November 05, 2018, 02:59:19 AM
Pulled from Cadet Shoulderboards in the Marketplace...

If you've been to a Uniform store. $32.80 is reasonable. Military Officers can pay up $40-80 for a pair of boards with embroidered grade. Cadet shoulder boards do cost a lot. I wouldn't be disappointed if CAP changed to cadet hard rank worn on the epaulet.

How about a soft board, keeping the same design, but eliminate the pointy tip and button (make the start of the pointed part the top of the slide)? Slide onto (or velcro around) the service coat epaulet and put full size grade insignia through the blue part. Of course, this would require cadet officers to get the officer style service coat...
In the 80's, a pair of shoulder boards cost $7.50. Now they are what, $32? What is that, like a 400% increase? CAP really needs to open up the market on uniform items an release the chokehold Vanguard has on the membership.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on November 05, 2018, 03:15:55 AM
Then you run into an Economy of Scale issue. If two companies are making them, the price will likely rise, because each company will sell fewer items. Generally, the more you make of something, the cheaper they get. Most CAP uniform items are a limited market, and do not lend themselves well to multiple manufacturers.

Sent using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on November 05, 2018, 03:22:03 AM
How much of the profits go to CAP?

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on November 05, 2018, 03:33:27 AM
I don't know the exact percentage, but the deal would likely end if two companies were involved.

Sent using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Blanding on November 05, 2018, 10:32:44 PM
In the 80's, a pair of shoulder boards cost $7.50. Now they are what, $32? What is that, like a 400% increase? CAP really needs to open up the market on uniform items an release the chokehold Vanguard has on the membership.

I have no idea if these prices are legit or not but,

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70yearsofpricechange.html

1980s price / 2013 price / % increase

New Home
$68,700 / $289,500 / 421%

New Car
$7,200 / $31,352 / 435%

Gallon of Gas
$1.19 / $3.80 / 319%

Loaf of Bread
$0.5 / $1.98 / 396%

1lb of Hamburger Meat
$0.99 / $4.68 / 473%

I guess my point is: the price of shoulder boards also went up... so what?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on November 05, 2018, 11:02:06 PM
In the 80's, a pair of shoulder boards cost $7.50. Now they are what, $32? What is that, like a 400% increase? CAP really needs to open up the market on uniform items an release the chokehold Vanguard has on the membership.

I have no idea if these prices are legit or not but,

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70yearsofpricechange.html

1980s price / 2013 price / % increase

New Home
$68,700 / $289,500 / 421%

New Car
$7,200 / $31,352 / 435%

Gallon of Gas
$1.19 / $3.80 / 319%

Loaf of Bread
$0.5 / $1.98 / 396%

1lb of Hamburger Meat
$0.99 / $4.68 / 473%

I guess my point is: the price of shoulder boards also went up... so what?
To $32? For a piece of cardboard wrapped in nylon? And why did CAP change from one insignia and a cutout to two? Because the cost went from $1.40 to over $11 per pair. Doubling their money. The cost of this crap is way to high. At least with Air Force uniforms you can get them really cheap. I got 3 blues shirts for $1 each at the surplus store, new in the bag. Vanguard wants over $40 for one.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on November 06, 2018, 01:23:21 AM
Nylon is a petrochemical. Have you checked the price of oil lately?

That said, I'm guessing that the majority of the cost is not materials, but labor and overhead, just like most businesses.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: etodd on November 06, 2018, 05:10:18 AM
(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45455322_519990798464584_307223404434423808_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=9dda4748427528fda3fdd434fabe57f8&oe=5C465097)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Blanding on November 06, 2018, 01:32:45 PM
The cost of this crap is way to high. At least with Air Force uniforms you can get them really cheap.

Air Force Personnel:
321,673 Active duty

CAP Members:
61,741

Difference:
571%

Why is it surprising that CAP specific uniform items cost more than those produced for military members, when there are significantly more military members than CAP members?
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Paul Creed III on November 06, 2018, 02:25:36 PM
(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45455322_519990798464584_307223404434423808_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=9dda4748427528fda3fdd434fabe57f8&oe=5C465097)

Snazzy.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on November 07, 2018, 01:40:45 AM
The cost of this crap is way to high. At least with Air Force uniforms you can get them really cheap.

Air Force Personnel:
321,673 Active duty

CAP Members:
61,741

Difference:
571%

Why is it surprising that CAP specific uniform items cost more than those produced for military members, when there are significantly more military members than CAP members?

The items are lower cost items, the difference is pretty significant. Of course, there are some things that we probably don't really need.

I understand that cadet officer ranks are a very respectable achievement, but do we really need shoulder boards that cost $32?

There's something to be said for just pinning the rank on the service coat epaulets like an officer would do. And save $32 in the process.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Blanding on November 07, 2018, 02:32:54 PM
...Of course, there are some things that we probably don't really need.

I understand that cadet officer ranks are a very respectable achievement, but do we really need shoulder boards that cost $32?

There's something to be said for just pinning the rank on the service coat epaulets like an officer would do. And save $32 in the process.

Apparently, CAP cadet officers have been wearing the same shoulder board on their service coat since 1964[1].
As this is one distinctive element of our uniforms that has stood the test of time, would you concede that it's worth preserving as a monument to our organization's history?

[1] http://www.capchistoryproject.org/grade-insignia.html (near the bottom of the page)
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: THRAWN on November 07, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
...Of course, there are some things that we probably don't really need.

I understand that cadet officer ranks are a very respectable achievement, but do we really need shoulder boards that cost $32?

There's something to be said for just pinning the rank on the service coat epaulets like an officer would do. And save $32 in the process.

Apparently, CAP cadet officers have been wearing the same shoulder board on their service coat since 1964[1].
As this is one distinctive element of our uniforms that has stood the test of time, would you concede that it's worth preserving as a monument to our organization's history?

[1] http://www.capchistoryproject.org/grade-insignia.html (near the bottom of the page)

And they've been wearing the rank insignia and the cap badges since 1949. They have already stood the test of time.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on November 07, 2018, 05:59:00 PM
As this is one distinctive element of our uniforms that has stood the test of time, would you concede that it's worth preserving as a monument to our organization's history?

Not if the cost to the cadet becomes excessive, which it appears it has. The burden of preserving monuments to our organization's history should not fall on the pocketbook of our cadets.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Blanding on November 07, 2018, 06:20:29 PM
As this is one distinctive element of our uniforms that has stood the test of time, would you concede that it's worth preserving as a monument to our organization's history?

Not if the cost to the cadet becomes excessive, which it appears it has. The burden of preserving monuments to our organization's history should not fall on the pocketbook of our cadets.

Well, that's a pretty subjective measure: "excessive" - but ignoring that, the shoulder board and service coat is not a required uniform. Therefore, the organization is not taxing the pocketbook of cadets unless they voluntarily opt to spend.

Additionally, many units maintain funding for uniform supplies and offer assistance to cadets in need.

I guess I just don't see your perspective that shoulder boards are a problem (despite their difficulty to wear). Sure; if they were removed from the uniform it would be easier to wear a service coat, yet the same can be said for any of the other adornments on there.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on November 07, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
Allow shoulder boards to be worn on the epaulets of the USAF cardigan with the aviator shirt uniform.  Otherwise, it just looks like a blue sweater over a white shirt and the individual isn't even a CAP member.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on November 07, 2018, 10:03:30 PM
Allow shoulder boards to be worn on the USAF epaulets with the aviator shirt uniform.  Otherwise, it just looks like a blue sweater over a white shirt and the individual isn't even a CAP member.

The blue pullover isn't authorized with the whites.

The cardigan is, and grade sleeves were worn on that sweater until the last revision of 39-1 in 2014.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Fubar on November 07, 2018, 10:57:15 PM
Well, that's a pretty subjective measure: "excessive" - but ignoring that, the shoulder board and service coat is not a required uniform. Therefore, the organization is not taxing the pocketbook of cadets unless they voluntarily opt to spend.

Both are good points, but I'd still prefer to make the cadet program as affordable as possible, even for optional items.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: CAPDepCom on November 07, 2018, 11:21:12 PM
Allow shoulder boards to be worn on the USAF epaulets with the aviator shirt uniform.  Otherwise, it just looks like a blue sweater over a white shirt and the individual isn't even a CAP member.

The blue pullover isn't authorized with the whites.

The cardigan is, and grade sleeves were worn on that sweater until the last revision of 39-1 in 2014.

I'm not sure what your point is.  You bring up the pullover, but no one mentioned the pullover.  The thread is about what we would like to see done differently with uniforms.  My comment was specifically about that: shoulder boards on the cardigan.  Doesn't matter if they were once allowed, they aren't now and I think they should be (hence, my suggestion).
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Hawk200 on November 07, 2018, 11:29:38 PM
Not if the cost to the cadet becomes excessive, which it appears it has. The burden of preserving monuments to our organization's history should not fall on the pocketbook of our cadets.

Kind of the way I'm considering it. Just for giggles, I bought a set of those, "re-clothed" them in gray, with the idea of proposing a Senior Member shoulder board. (I don't care for the sleeves on the service coat epaulets.)

It took a while to do, but in the end I managed to make them look like they were commercially produced. In doing this, I learned why they're so expensive. They're a pain to make. The materials would probably be fairly inexpensive, but the assembly was a little complex. So, the reasons for the cost became evident.

Maybe if the production process was somehow streamlined, the cost could be reduced. But, eliminating them would be a lot less expensive in the long term. Considering that rank could be pinned on, they're non-essential flair. They don't add anything.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Lakeshore-CAP-Ret on November 15, 2018, 05:18:15 PM
Actually have a uniform.


I'd like to continue to follow USAF guidelines, including going back to the blue senior rank sleeves, but have much stronger disciplinary guidelines for seniors who abuse the uniform, such as not keeping with weight standards, or requiring USAF enlisted to salute them, etc.  I'd also like to see more use of the dark blue BDU coast guard uniform, including allowing us to wear their blue winter jacket.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Jim Lahaie on December 02, 2018, 09:26:34 PM
Allow all cadets of CAP to wear full-sized rank insignia on shirt sleeves as the air force does.
Just make sure they aren't confusable with actual USAF rank insignia and make the insignia subdued.
Have cadets wear green subdued CAP cutouts on their collar.
Allow the usage of green USAF boots with the ABU uniform.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on December 02, 2018, 10:47:54 PM
Allow all cadets of CAP to wear full-sized rank insignia on shirt sleeves as the air force does. Just make sure they aren't confusable with actual USAF rank insignia and make the insignia subdued.
Have cadets wear green subdued CAP cutouts on their collar.

Allow the usage of green USAF boots with the ABU uniform.

Really? At the rate cadets promote? It was bad enough WIWAC having to change them every four to six months. All that sewing activity takes its toll on the sleeve fabric. It's not too much fun for whomever is doing the sewing, either. At the rate dress uniforms seem to be worn, a typical cadet might wear a particular insignia three times before needing to change. The shirt would spend more time in the sewing basket than being worn.

Pin-on grade insignia was one of the best thing to ever happen to the cadet program.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: hamburgee on December 03, 2018, 03:21:19 AM
Pin-on grade insignia was one of the best thing to ever happen to the cadet program.
Agreed... Easy and quick to switch between uniforms, folk like myself who don't have the money nor the time to sew appreciate it much.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on December 03, 2018, 03:33:32 AM
Back in the olde days when we wore the 1505 Tan Uniform we had sew on grade insignia for cadet enlisted. It was a major pain, especially in the fingers...
When we switched over to the current light blue shirts we wear now it was discovered very quickly that the much thinner material didn't take to having insignia sewn on and removed over and over. There were a lot of shirts ruined. The metal pin on insignia was the answer to that problem and it still is.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on December 03, 2018, 03:45:29 AM
^The result of that would simply be a lot of cadets wearing the incorrect grade.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on December 03, 2018, 04:44:22 AM
^The result of that would simply be a lot of cadets wearing the incorrect grade.

Actually, no. Everybody wore their correct grade. It was a big thing then just like it is a big thing now.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: SarDragon on December 03, 2018, 07:11:26 AM
^The result of that would simply be a lot of cadets wearing the incorrect grade.

Actually, no. Everybody wore their correct grade. It was a big thing then just like it is a big thing now.

Indeed it was. Maybe an even bigger thing, since promotion intervals were less frequent, requirements were different, and processing was more complicated.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 03, 2018, 04:13:27 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: MHC5096 on December 03, 2018, 05:23:03 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on December 03, 2018, 05:45:24 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on December 03, 2018, 05:45:53 PM
A metal pin on cadet officer flight cap device. The old female 'puff' beret did have one that was about the right size.

Sew on version of senior member flight cap device for abu/bdu/cfu patrol cap. Same idea for cadet officers if above is implemented.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 03, 2018, 06:28:49 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.
When I was a cadet, we didn't have senior and chief MSgt's. MSgt was as high as it went and that was 6 stripes down. That pointy insignia is crazy. Also we only used one and had a CAP cutout on the other collar. I'd like to se that again. It would cut the cost of rank insignia in half.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 04, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.

Change the orientation of the insignia to perpendicular to the lower edge instead of parallel (Navy style).
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: PHall on December 04, 2018, 08:13:58 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.

Change the orientation of the insignia to perpendicular to the lower edge instead of parallel (Navy style).

Why change it in the first place? Have you ever heard of a cadet actually hurting themselves with their grade insignia? I know I haven't.
If there was any kind of real hazard the Safety folks at National would have gone crazy about it years ago.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: BraveRifles19D on December 04, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.

Change the orientation of the insignia to perpendicular to the lower edge instead of parallel (Navy style).

Why change it in the first place? Have you ever heard of a cadet actually hurting themselves with their grade insignia? I know I haven't.
If there was any kind of real hazard the Safety folks at National would have gone crazy about it years ago.
I wore pin-on rank all through my time in the Army and never once did I hurt myself. And whoever designed the cadet rank must hav deliberately placed the pins where they would have to go through the collar stiffiners on the blues!

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on December 05, 2018, 05:11:22 AM
What would be nice would be to allow cadet officers to use pin-on rank on the ABUs and patrol caps.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The old argument that cloth insignia is used instead of pin-on for safety reasons is a moot point when the majority of the cadet corps wears pin-on insignia.

There was literally discussion a few years ago about changing the orientation of the metal insignia on the
collar because the point of the larger insignia (like Chief), could puncture a jugular vein.

Where was this discussion held? Who participated? How did it come up?

I’ve got visions of 5-6 people sitting around, where one person brings it up. Then, after hearing a chorus of “Nah, nothing to worry about,” it got dropped off and they moved on. To frost that cake, my vision has none of them discussing it because it was their assignment to do so, just some guys.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Eclipse on December 05, 2018, 05:40:56 AM
Where was this discussion held? Who participated? How did it come up?

As I recall, there was actually a 78 on a cadet getting poked, which prompted the proposal for the last rev of 39-1.

Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Lakeshore-CAP-Ret on December 11, 2018, 02:35:40 AM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.


Back in the day, I would of thought you'd be crazy to take away the USAF style for seniors, until I actually retired from the AF after 25 years while simultaneously belonging to CAP.  Now that I've seen seniors wear the AF uniform without oversight (Lt Cols, or sqdrn CCs actually enforcing weight and cleanliness of the uniforms CAP seniors wear). 


The last four years I was active in CAP, I was overweight. Rather than just ignore the regs that prohibit overweight seniors and cadets over 18 fm wearing the USAF, I decided integrity was more important and I stopped wearing the Air Force uniform.  Personally and surprisingly, I felt a freedom I never had before.  I enjoyed wearing the alternate uniform.  Still wore the alt uniform pressed, and shoes shinned, but I didn't have to wear all the 'bling' which I have several.


Your comments about cadets, I believe letting cadets wear blues is appropriate, but perhaps wearing the security guard dark blue BDUs would be a great uniform for everyone.  Just my thoughst.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 11, 2018, 05:18:23 PM
Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.


Back in the day, I would of thought you'd be crazy to take away the USAF style for seniors, until I actually retired from the AF after 25 years while simultaneously belonging to CAP.  Now that I've seen seniors wear the AF uniform without oversight (Lt Cols, or sqdrn CCs actually enforcing weight and cleanliness of the uniforms CAP seniors wear). 


The last four years I was active in CAP, I was overweight. Rather than just ignore the regs that prohibit overweight seniors and cadets over 18 fm wearing the USAF, I decided integrity was more important and I stopped wearing the Air Force uniform.  Personally and surprisingly, I felt a freedom I never had before.  I enjoyed wearing the alternate uniform.  Still wore the alt uniform pressed, and shoes shinned, but I didn't have to wear all the 'bling' which I have several.


Your comments about cadets, I believe letting cadets wear blues is appropriate, but perhaps wearing the security guard dark blue BDUs would be a great uniform for everyone.  Just my thoughst.

I don't get why Blues would be considered appropriate but not ABUs, or vice versa. I see, from time to time, comments like "Cadets should be permitted to wear the USAF-style uniform but not seniors." What's the difference?

Clearly, the issue isn't who's wearing what; it's how it's being worn.

The 19-year-old cadet who is 5'6 and weights 220 shouldn't be in the uniform; it's that simple. That cadet should be pulled aside and, in a polite and professional manner, be explained why they are not allowed to wear the uniform.

I know of a cadet who was an obese 16-year-old that was allowed to promote despite never being able to pass PT. The unit passed him because he was "trying." I don't recall "trying" in the testing standards for a satisfactory pass. He's over 18 now; still wears the USAF uniform.

So the problem isn't what they're allowed to wear or not allowed to wear. The problem is definitely the fact that nobody is enforcing existing standards. Rather than removing the standards or making new ones, how about we enforce what's on the table today? Because whatever we change the standards to be, someone is going to screw it up---they don't care now; they won't care tomorrow.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Jester on December 12, 2018, 04:48:48 PM
Another thread just reminded me:

-  Get rid of the old service uniform items (coat, lighter colored trousers and flight cap).  It's been 19 years since the old coat was completely phased out in the AF.  Streamline the reg a bit and get rid of the 4-pocket configuration.  If we ever get lucky enough for a similar uniform to come back, dust off the old standard and paste them into the reg (for another 20 years or so until we finally decide to get rid of the current coat).
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 12, 2018, 08:39:36 PM
Another thread just reminded me:

-  Get rid of the old service uniform items (coat, lighter colored trousers and flight cap).  It's been 19 years since the old coat was completely phased out in the AF.  Streamline the reg a bit and get rid of the 4-pocket configuration.  If we ever get lucky enough for a similar uniform to come back, dust off the old standard and paste them into the reg (for another 20 years or so until we finally decide to get rid of the current coat).

Now this will just stir up the people that want the Air Force (and CAP) to ditch the new "business suit" for the old-style coat.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: arajca on December 12, 2018, 10:50:50 PM
Another thread just reminded me:

-  Get rid of the old service uniform items (coat, lighter colored trousers and flight cap).  It's been 19 years since the old coat was completely phased out in the AF.  Streamline the reg a bit and get rid of the 4-pocket configuration.  If we ever get lucky enough for a similar uniform to come back, dust off the old standard and paste them into the reg (for another 20 years or so until we finally decide to get rid of the current coat).

Now this will just stir up the people that want the Air Force (and CAP) to ditch the new "business suit" for the old-style coat.
Even if the AF adopts a new 4 pocket service coat, it won't match the old one in either color or material. Also, given that almost no one wears the old service coat properly IAW CAPM 39-1, it should go away.
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: bd5av8r on January 21, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Since Congress has mandated a common uniform: OCP.
Dress uniform: the tony Pineda uniform.

There. That should stir the pot a bit lol

Oh: Beret and same usaf boots and sage brown as the AF on the ocp :D lol
Title: Re: What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?
Post by: Jim Lahaie on May 08, 2019, 03:15:02 PM
The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

Not all Specialty tracks have badges.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.
I have been the Recruiting NCO for months now, and have NEVER found a badge for my specialty.

Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.