CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: Eclipse on February 14, 2017, 10:36:25 PM

Title: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on February 14, 2017, 10:36:25 PM
It might be time to let Chewie drive...


"Actor Harrison Ford was involved in a potentially serious incident on Monday as he was piloting his private plane, a single engine Husky, NBC News has learned.

Ford, an experienced pilot who collects vintage planes, had been instructed to land on runway 20-L at John Wayne Airport in Orange County, California but
mistakenly aimed for a taxiway instead. His plane passed over the top of an American Airlines 737 loaded with 110 passengers and a six-person crew.

The passenger plane, AA flight 1546, managed to depart safely for Dallas just minutes after the incident.
Ford, 74, was captured on air traffic control recordings asking, "Was that airliner meant to be underneath me?"


http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/harrison-ford-has-incident-passenger-plane-airport-n720826

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4225082/Harrison-Ford-74-nearly-crashes-plane-AGAIN.html

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/02/14/21/3D35BFEE00000578-4225082-He_was_captured_on_air_traffic_control_recordings_asking_Was_tha-a-37_1487109029334.jpg)
Also the tires on your plane are comically large.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: MSG Mac on February 15, 2017, 12:58:22 AM
I see fines and a flight physical in his future.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Shawn W. on February 15, 2017, 04:07:14 AM
Chewie get us out of here!
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Ozzy on February 15, 2017, 02:14:32 PM
Wasn't he also in some incident a year or two ago?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on February 15, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19790.msg365189#msg365189
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: TheSkyHornet on February 15, 2017, 04:10:58 PM
Wasn't he also in some incident a year or two ago?

That was an engine failure, not a perceptual error.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: jhighman on February 15, 2017, 04:19:21 PM
Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on February 15, 2017, 04:28:51 PM
Maybe he thought he could hide on the side of the airliner until they dumped their garbage.

(http://starwarsvisualizer.ff0000.com/media//images/600px/ep5/EP5_ILM_119.jpg)

(http://s21.postimg.org/xk9ep7dpj/hanhiding.jpg)
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: NIN on February 15, 2017, 07:30:26 PM
Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?

^^^ This right here is the real answer.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on February 15, 2017, 08:42:51 PM

Also the tires on your plane are comically large.


I'm starting to see a pattern between you and airplane tires...perhaps they should be a color other than black?  >:D
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on February 15, 2017, 08:44:09 PM
^ Seriously.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on February 15, 2017, 08:46:08 PM
^ Seriously.


Meant to add " >:D " to the last post. Done now.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Live2Learn on February 16, 2017, 12:09:27 AM
Let he (or she) who is totally blameless and innocent of ever a momentary lapse of attention cast stones.  I'm pretty sure some forum members know of one or more of CAP pilots who thoroughly screwed up (without witnesses who were willing to take it to the front page of national media).  IMHO, this is a 'teachable moment', not a rationale for pile on.  HF will likely have some conversations with the FAA, as he should.  And the lesson from his momentary inattention is...?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: PHall on February 16, 2017, 01:29:28 AM

Also the tires on your plane are comically large.


I'm starting to see a pattern between you and airplane tires...perhaps they should be a color other than black?  >:D

Those are the standard "Tundra Tires" that this aircraft normally has. Nothing funny about them.
Unless you don't know what you're talking about.....
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on February 16, 2017, 02:09:20 AM
Knowing what they are doesn't make then not comically large.

(http://www.flyingmag.com/sites/flyingmag.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/import/2005/sites/all/files/_images/200509/9212005174658.jpg)
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Live2Learn on February 16, 2017, 04:32:47 AM
This is a very thoughtful analysis of HF's mishap.  It might be a good read for those of us who are unfamiliar with that airport, or other recent incidents of a similar nature involving multi-pilot crewed transport category aircraft who mistook a taxiway for the runway at other airports.

http://www.mastery-flight-training.com/20170216-flying-lessons.pdf (http://www.mastery-flight-training.com/20170216-flying-lessons.pdf)

Several useful and insightful observations are offered by this highly regarded Master CFII.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: PHall on February 16, 2017, 04:39:34 AM
Yeah, Mr Ford is going to be having a not so fun discussion over at the FSDO.
If he's lucky it will only be a 90 or 180 day suspension.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: ♠SARKID♠ on February 16, 2017, 06:26:19 PM
Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?

I lol'ed.
(http://i.imgur.com/M29um82.gif)
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Starbux on February 19, 2017, 05:01:41 AM
Let he (or she) who is totally blameless and innocent of ever a momentary lapse of attention cast stones.  I'm pretty sure some forum members know of one or more of CAP pilots who thoroughly screwed up (without witnesses who were willing to take it to the front page of national media).  IMHO, this is a 'teachable moment', not a rationale for pile on.  HF will likely have some conversations with the FAA, as he should.  And the lesson from his momentary inattention is...?

You seem to be only one on here with the voice of reason.  I would echo your comments in this sense.  Mistakes happen and its not that there have not been our pilots who have not had their fair share of aviation incidents and mishaps.  We don't know all of the factors.  Like the article you posted we have no idea if of the causal factors.  Poor visibility and the runway losing contrast it is real easy to see where if the taxiway sticks out enough one could inadvertently line up with it.  At my main airport there are times when the taxi actually sticks out more than one of our main runways.  I always try to back up a visual with a precision approach if available.  This aircraft probably has no ILS.  Based off of the information the only thing I see him doing wrong was not initiating go around when there was an aircraft on what he would have perceived to be protruding on the active runway.  Of course where was the tower?  They did not happen notice an aircraft approaching the taxiway vs the runway? 

There are lot things people take for granted in human factors and flying.  We are creatures of habit, we know what we know.  Its things like this that affect maybe the fact that this airport with a lacking visible markings that make the runway discernible.  So yeah there are several factors and since none of us were there we can't really armchair quarterback this completely until there is more information.  As responsible aviators we should do what you said and take these as a learning point so we do not end up doing the same some day.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: UWONGO2 on February 23, 2017, 11:17:34 PM
A lot of outlets have posted this video of Ford's oops:



Not quite the "scare" that a lot of media outlets are continuing to report, but definitely a mistake for the veteran pilot.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: NIN on February 23, 2017, 11:23:39 PM
I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Live2Learn on February 24, 2017, 03:34:01 AM
I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."

Good question.  "See what we expect to see..."?  Or???  Regardless, there are lessons herein for all.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on February 24, 2017, 03:49:53 AM
Easy...

Mistook the runway for the taxiway, and the taxiway for the runway... A very wide taxiway beside a narrow runway...

 >:D
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: PHall on February 24, 2017, 05:47:30 AM
There are two runways at Orange County-John Wayne Airport (SNA), 19L which is 2887 x 75 feet and is normally the General Aviation runway and 19R which is 5700 x 150 feet and is the runway used by the airliners. Taxiway Charlie is located between 19L and the ramp.
Now, which runway was Mr Ford cleared to land on?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on February 24, 2017, 06:03:53 AM
Eclipse's message states it was 20-L.

See the airport diagram here. https://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/current/SW-3/sna_airport_diagram.pdf?_ga=1.61378988.1491826351.1487915680

I am not sure what map are you reading that from, but 20-L and 20-R run Northeast-Southwest on this map dated Feb 2017 to March 2017. There is no mention of a 19-L or 19-R. The runway lengths do conform to the lengths you mention. Since the differences are about 10 degrees, could it be possible the source you are using is outdated, and the runways as reported in your source were using an older designation?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on February 24, 2017, 06:20:52 AM
This article on The Orange County Register states the airport had to renumber runways in 2013 because of a shift in the Earth's magnetic north. They were originally numbered in 1965.

See http://www.ocregister.com/articles/airport-537855-runway-degrees.html
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on February 24, 2017, 06:36:19 AM
In retrospect I think that maybe I should have sent my last two messages on this thread as a PM so I apologize to all.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: EMT-83 on February 24, 2017, 01:47:28 PM
One of the news reports showed video of the approach and the runway markings were not clear on 20L, as in the paint was seriously faded away. With the right lighting conditions, who knows what the pilot thought he was looking at.

Anyone here familiar with that approach?
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: FlyNavy on February 24, 2017, 11:22:45 PM
Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Live2Learn on February 25, 2017, 05:13:01 AM
Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: PHall on February 26, 2017, 01:39:52 AM
Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.

Mr Ford is not the first person landing at John Wayne to do this and he sure isn't the last person to do it.
But because he's a celeb and TMZ made a big deal about it, we're talking about it here.
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Live2Learn on February 26, 2017, 05:29:51 PM
In September 2007 the FAA/DOT published TEchnical Note TN07/54, titled "Identification Techniques to Reduce Confusion Between Taxiways and Adjacent Runways".  Appebdix B is very interesting.  It provides dates and numbers of incedents where aircraft landed on taxiways for 110 towered US airports.  In all, 267 incidents are recorded.  Most were likely in crewed aircraft.  A brief Google exercise revealed quite a few airliners crewed by professional pilots, employing state of the art navigation equipment and CRM that none-the-less failed to differentiate runways from taxiways.  See: 

http://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/DesktopModules/FlexNews/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=f49f5132-11f1-47ff-9f5b-68246581b4c5&f=TN07-54.pdf (http://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/DesktopModules/FlexNews/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=f49f5132-11f1-47ff-9f5b-68246581b4c5&f=TN07-54.pdf)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/29/plane-lands-taxiway-instead-runway-seattle/78056520/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3378645/Passenger-plane-lands-TAXIWAY-instead-runway-fourth-incident-kind-Seattle-airport.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3378645/Passenger-plane-lands-TAXIWAY-instead-runway-fourth-incident-kind-Seattle-airport.html)

http://www.statesboroherald.com/archives/762/ (http://www.statesboroherald.com/archives/762/)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125816841453048137 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125816841453048137)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_1883 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_1883)

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10393744/korean-air-captain-admits-to-error-when-landing-on-taxiway (http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10393744/korean-air-captain-admits-to-error-when-landing-on-taxiway)

http://airlinegeeks.com/2016/01/05/how-is-it-possible-to-land-an-airliner-on-a-taxiway/ (http://airlinegeeks.com/2016/01/05/how-is-it-possible-to-land-an-airliner-on-a-taxiway/)

The FAA/DOT report doesn't absolve pilots, however it concludes that the root cause of the problem is "... that airport geometry is a major causal factor in all these incidents and should be eliminated in the early design phases of the airport."
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: Eclipse on April 04, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Harrison Ford won't face discipline in landing mishap.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ford-taxiway-agreement-20170331-story.html

"A Federal Aviation Administration investigation concluded that no enforcement action was warranted in the incident.
The agency required only “awareness training,” which Ford has already completed."
Title: Re: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
Post by: PHall on April 05, 2017, 01:22:09 AM
I think the fact that he immediately owned up to his mistake, on the tower frequency no less, may have helped his case.