CAP Talk

Operations => Safety => Topic started by: SarDragon on September 11, 2016, 07:48:21 PM

Title: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on September 11, 2016, 07:48:21 PM
OK, we're going to give this a try.

Health items may be posted here, with the following rules:

1. Information only. No opinions, no politics. Polite discussion is encouraged.
2. If you don't like it, drive on.
3. If you disagree, or think it's incorrect, report it, and drive on. Leave the flaming in the flame locker. The mods will sort it out.

 I will move older posts here as I have time.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: NIN on September 11, 2016, 08:00:15 PM
Is there any way to request that such posts at least have a tangential relationship to CAP (apart from "this concerns humans, and humans are in CAP") in some way?

Title: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spam on September 11, 2016, 08:25:00 PM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.


V/R
Spam


Excerpt of 60-3 provided:
"the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf (http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf) or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings".

Title: How much calcium do you need and what's the best source?
Post by: SarDragon on September 15, 2016, 05:23:15 AM
We all need calcium and Vitamin D for strong bones but how much do we need and where should we get it from?

Good guidelines:

    1,000 milligrams/day for those age 19 to 50
    1,200 milligrams/day for those age 50 or over
    1,000 milligrams/day for pregnant or lactating adult women

Most people immediately think of milk as the best source of calcium. Milk is a good source however too much may lead to health problems, especially ovarian and prostate cancer. In addition whole milk has saturated fat and all milk has Vitamin A, which at high levels can, paradoxically, weaken bones. This may be the reason that some studies show increased bone fractures in those elderly who drink lots of milk.

Calcium can also be obtained from dark leafy green vegetables and some types of legumes. A variety of calcium-fortified foods, such as orange juice and soy milk, are now on the market.

The body needs Vitamin D to process calcium. Almost all milk sold in the US is fortified with this Vitamin and the body produces it from sunlight on the skin.

Note that most people in the world become lactose intolerant after infanthood. For them, eating or drinking dairy products causes problems like cramping, bloating, gas, and diarrhea. These symptoms can range from mild to severe. Certain groups are much more likely to have lactose intolerance.For example, 90 percent of Asians, 70 percent of blacks and Native Americans, and 50 percent of Hispanics are lactose intolerant, compared to only about 15 percent of people of Northern European descent. This appear to be an evolutionary adaption.

In addition, people, including people of Northern European descent, can become less lactose tolerant as they age.

One alternative for those who are lactose intolerant but who still enjoy consuming dairy products is to take a pill containing enzymes that digest milk sugar along with the dairy product, or to consume milk that has the lactase enzyme added to it. Alternatively, calcium can be obtained from non-dairy products previous noted.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/ (https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/)
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: RNOfficer on September 16, 2016, 03:01:26 AM
OK, we're going to give this a try.

Health items may be posted here, with the following rules:


I'm confused as to what "here" refers to. Is it the Safety forum or this thread?
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on September 16, 2016, 03:26:22 AM
This thread, with a new title on a post with new subject.

Sent from my phone.

Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on September 16, 2016, 03:54:36 PM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.


V/R
Spam


Excerpt of 60-3 provided:
"the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf (http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf) or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings".

As an CAP-USAF guy, I dont know how to push this thru, but am willing to look into it.  I dont see why CAP member would/could not be eligible to not only participate in but self manage (at which ever level seems most appropriate...usually the Wing Level for USAF) for the self aid an buddy care program.   The biggest stumbling block is it involves an online program coupled with a "practical" skills session.  There is no reason the online part couldnt be migrated to e-services, all CAP members complete it and it shows the training record then the "trainer" sign off in the SQTR approval block once the practical part is completed. 

as far as the
Quote
research, compare, evaluate, and recommend
, I think this would be the place for a working group to start.  It is at least cost effective, and added bonus is in-line with the total force concept, though there are parts that are geared towards the deployed environment, the bulk is applicable to the everyday working environment.  Personally, short of developing something entirely owned by CAP, any other course is going to be paid for at some level by the organization/member.  (unless someone negotiates into the ARC MOU "free training")

mk
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Brad on September 18, 2016, 02:16:21 AM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.


V/R
Spam


Excerpt of 60-3 provided:
"the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf (http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf) or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings".

Try this as a starting point: http://cpr.heart.org/AHAECC/CPRAndECC/Training/HeartsaverCourses/HeartsaverFirstAidCPRAED/UCM_473177_Heartsaver-First-Aid-CPR-AED.jsp

(or without the CPR & AED): http://cpr.heart.org/AHAECC/CPRAndECC/Training/HeartsaverCourses/HeartsaverFirstAid/UCM_476846_Heartsaver-First-Aid.jsp
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spam on September 18, 2016, 04:04:22 AM
Thanks, Brad. I do appreciate your interest in the topic. I actually took this course a few years ago (not bad).

On the positive side:  this is a first data point. I would love to see our "Health Services Officer" community take this topic and run with it, spending their apparent available energy to do a comparative study between options out there, to include paid courses like this, as well as perhaps an off the shelf CBT plus a local skills test, or even a CAP developed LMS module plus a "check ride" skills test administered at Wing level (or something like that).

On the not so positive side, commercial courses like this one (which runs at 75 bucks per head) are certainly not "of nominal cost", as I'd phrased it... I'd love to see our HSO experts out there do the research and make considered recommendations of sets of options for us to consider, with costs/benefits/strengths and weaknesses of each option.

Can Do, you HSOs out there?


V/R
Spam


Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Brad on September 19, 2016, 03:31:19 AM
I remember years ago my Squadron arranged for that course for free. Complete classroom first aid and CPR + AED with our county EMS. I would suggest that as a starting point, as they likely have instructors on staff, or can at least help liaison with surrounding larger counties to get things going at the local level.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2016, 04:16:25 AM
Complete classroom first aid and CPR + AED with our county EMS.

Then they almost certainly violated their provider agreement.

That's the issue with the instructors who can provide training that meets CAP mandate, they
aren't allowed to offer the training for free.  At a minimum they have to purchase the books, etc.,
and register the participants with the provider.

BTDT in a circle, for a decade.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: AirAux on September 19, 2016, 03:57:28 PM
Problem is, most instructors do it for a living.

On the other hand, if you are lactose intolerant, you can drink raw milk and it won't bother you.  Pasteurization cooks the lactase enzyme out of the milk causing some people to have a hard time digesting milk, AKA, Lactose Intolerance..  (Lactose is the sugar in milk)
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Problem is, most instructors do it for a living.

It's certainly part of the challenge.

I received several classes from a member who was an AHA instructor.  He could give his time away free, but
participates still had to pay for the materials.  If he just taught the class on his own, there was no
back from AHA and he could get kicked as an instructor. 

Same goes for ARC, Green Cross, or any of the other for-profit schools.  Without the backing of the
teaching organizaiton, you might as well get it from the local FD (which IMHO, we should be able to).
Title: CDC Updates Guidance for Travel and Testing of Pregnant Women and Women
Post by: RNOfficer on September 20, 2016, 11:00:42 PM
https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/han00396.asp
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 20, 2016, 11:17:01 PM

Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.


I agree with other posters that the ARC First Aid course is too superficial to be of much use.You might consider an "Emergency Medical Responder" course

from Wikipedia

The U.S. Department of Transportation (D.O.T.) recognized a gap between the typical eight hours training required for providing advanced first aid (as taught by the Red Cross) and the 180 hours typical of an EMT-Basic program. Also, some rural communities could not afford the comprehensive training and highly experienced instructors required for a full EMT-Basic course. The First Responder training program began in 1979 as an outgrowth of the "Crash Injury Management" course.

In 1995 the D.O.T. issued a manual for an intermediate level of training called "First Responder." This training can be completed in twenty-four to sixty hours.

Importantly, this training can be conducted by an EMT-Basic with some field experience


The certification "First Responder" has been largely replaced by "Emergency Medical Responder"

http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/preview-kits/emergency-medical-response

http://www.nsc.org/learn/Safety-Training/Pages/Courses/emergency-medical-response.aspx

https://www.nremt.org/nremt/about/reg_1st_history.asp
Title: New Low-Dose of Weight Loss Drug Approved
Post by: RNOfficer on September 20, 2016, 11:40:50 PM
http://kvktech.com/LomairaPressRelease.pdf

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/expert-answers/phentermine/faq-20057940

This is a drug for short term (maximum 12 weeks) but even small weight loss can improve health.

The new low dose (but taken several times a day) may mitigate some of the side effects which include

    Increased blood pressure
    Dizziness
    Dry mouth
    Sleeplessness
    Nervousness
    Constipation

Phentermine isn't a good option if you have heart disease, high blood pressure, an overactive thyroid gland or glaucoma. It also isn't for women who are pregnant, may become pregnant or are breast-feeding.

A better alternative is life-style and diet changes. The American Heart Association has a new, easy-to-follow plan, "Life's Simple 7"

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/My-Life-Check---Lifes-Simple-7_UCM_471453_Article.jsp#.V-HJtjU83tR
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: etodd on September 21, 2016, 10:53:38 PM
This is going to be a wild thread. Many different topics in a single thread where replies and comments get jumbled amongst all the others. Once it gets to a few pages, it'll be next to impossible to read a singular topic and its replies(?)
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 21, 2016, 11:09:08 PM
That's why quoting exists.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: etodd on September 22, 2016, 12:25:17 AM
That's why quoting exists.

Yes. But when someone a few weeks from now replies to a post on page 3 and the reply goes on page 27 .... and they only quote a snippet ...
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on September 22, 2016, 12:47:00 AM
Hey, we can do what we need to make it work, or we can just whine about it, and get it shut off. The admins have allowed what we have. There will not be a separate forum/topic/section for this, so it's as good as it gets.

There are two ways to post to this:

Quote a post with the desired title, delete what you don't need, add your material, and select Post.

or

Start a new post, and change the title as appropriate, add your material, and select Post.

I've been reviewing posts, and changing titles, but I don't always have the time to do this.

Ball's in y'all's court.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 22, 2016, 05:48:03 AM

Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.

....


In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).

However, as I've stated previously, IMO, the 8 hour ARC course is very nearly worthless for providing actual care in an emergency. The CPR portion of the ARC course is very abbreviated . So as a practical matter, I would not bother with that certification unless there is some specific need.

The recommended compression only CPR is so simple that it takes only minutes to learn. What I do instead is borrow CPR dummies from our local ARC chapter and have interested members practice it a AT LEAST TWICE a year.. IMO PRACTICE is key to maintaining CPR skills.

The American Heart Association offers "CPR for health care providers" which is what EMT-B must take. It's a very complete and useful course but not free.

Title: Re: Health information
Post by: 754837 on September 22, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 22, 2016, 03:53:37 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: CAPDCCMOM on September 22, 2016, 04:16:35 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: PHall on September 22, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: CAPDCCMOM on September 22, 2016, 05:32:58 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Thonawit on September 22, 2016, 10:47:15 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: CAPDCCMOM on September 22, 2016, 10:48:46 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: THRAWN on September 22, 2016, 11:08:14 PM
Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on September 22, 2016, 11:28:51 PM
 I'm trying to strike a happy medium here, and y'all don't seem to want to cooperate. We can go one of two ways on this.

We can either:

Keep it serious and on topic, and continue the thread.

or

Click it off, and we're done with the whole business.

Someone is offering up information that you can choose to either use, or ignore. If you don't like it, move on.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 23, 2016, 01:10:04 AM
I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Holding Pattern on September 23, 2016, 02:48:27 AM
I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.

So as an example, me in WA state with a CPR card, what benefit would the EMR course net me? What further things could I do? Are there things I would be obligated to do?
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 23, 2016, 03:35:48 AM
I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.

So as an example, me in WA state with a CPR card, what benefit would the EMR course net me? What further things could I do? Are there things I would be obligated to do?

An EMR is trained to provide basic life support until more highly qualified responders arrive. There's lots to do however it depends on how your state agency define the "scope of practice". Too much to list here.

I have a pdf copy of the most common EMR textbook; Emergency Medical Responder A Skills Approach that I can send you (or anyone else) if you PM me. It's not the current edition (it's the 3rd Canadian; the current edition is the fourth) so it can't be used as a text for the course but it will tell you the skills an EMR learns.

As to what you are REQUIRED to do; the basic principle of American law is you are required to do NOTHING unless you are in a position of responsibility over the victim Eg: Your child is injured, you have a duty to do what ever you are competent to do.  Similarly, you are supervising cadets on the flight line; you are obligated to provide care to the victim up to the limits of your training or your scope of practice, whichever is more restrictive.

However, If a member of the public wanders onto the flightline and is beheaded by a propeller, you are not required to do anything because you have no duty of responsibility toward this person (assuming you have not been assigned and accepted a position of providing emergency care on the flight line).

If you are providing the help gratuitously, you are protected from a lawsuit (unless you are grossly negligent) by the state Good Samaritan law,which varies somewhat from state to state so you should be familiar with your state's even if you just render CPR.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=4.24.300

BTW, if you are in a "Civil Law" jurisdiction such as France and almost all countries in the world that were not British colonies you probably have an affirmative duty to help anyone.

You might recall the two episode of the Seinfeld Finale where fictitiously Massachusetts.has adopted the "Civil Law" rule of duty toward anyone. Consequently, the Seinfeld quartet are convicted of this offense for failing to aid a man whose car is stolen. They are sentenced to a year in jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Finale_(Seinfeld)

Also, BTW, when using "Civil Law" in this sense it has nothing to do with what Americans call civil law, the law between individual such as contracts. The US, the UK and most former British and American colonies Have "Common Law". Most of the rest of the world is modeled on French law which is called "Civil Law".
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 05:37:40 AM
And again I will quote the overriding CAP regulation (CAPR 160-1), emphasis mine:

Quote
1-6. Medical Care Policy.
a. CAP is not a health care provider, and CAP members are not permitted to act in the role of health care providers during the performance of official CAP duties. Consequently, CAP members are not permitted to function as pharmacists, physicians, nurses, or in any other role that would permit the administration and dispensing of drugs under various federal and state laws and regulations.
b. Medical care within CAP is limited to emergency first aid and may be provided only by members with appropriate training and experience. Such care shall continue only until professional medical care can be obtained.
c. Any member can assist another member in distress in order to save the life of the member. Members are encouraged to inform activity leadership, health service officers, those in direct contact with the member of their condition, and critical information for support that may be needed. Should any CAP member be required by law to render aid by virtue of his or her professional credential or state license (such as a paramedic or emergency medical technician, for example), such CAP member in complying with his or her legal obligations shall be deemed to be doing so either as the agent of his or her employer or as an agent of the state agency that issued his or her license, but in no event as the agent of CAP.
d. CAP members providing emergency first aid will inform first responders, like emergency medical services, what they have done so that further care is not hindered. All occurrences must be documented in accordance with CAPR 62-2, Mishap Reporting and Review.

You keep proposing that CAP members provide various levels of medical assistance, as a function of their CAP membership. The reg above specifically prohibits such action. How can we make it more clear?
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: DakRadz on September 23, 2016, 12:09:30 PM
Dave, it is a BIG stretch to call most of what an EMR is trained for, anything other than "emergency first aid."

While the course would be rather lengthy, it does go over many basic, appropriate skills you generally wouldn't need a doctor or state permission to perform as a civilian.

Bleeding control, CPR, airway (mostly positioning, opening, clearing- all able to be done without specialized equipment at this level).


I'd argue that the EMR course would be very beneficial for ground teams out of all the available options- but it's usually 3 months long.

I don't recall much, if anything, an EMR can do that would contradict our regulations, provided it was an emergency situation.

Now, as a paramedic, I often have supplies, skills, or knowledge that would be inappropriate to utilize in a CAP context. But that's literally the top of the pyramid, with EMR being the bottom.


ETA: bold/italics/et al don't show up on Tapatalk, but I believe we are still on the same wavelength.

1st Lt Raduenz
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 23, 2016, 02:24:15 PM
ETA: bold/italics/et al don't show up on Tapatalk, but I believe we are still on the same wavelength.

1st Lt Raduenz


Why, whatever do you mean?
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 08:31:28 PM
The point of contention here is this statement:

Should any CAP member be required by law to render aid by virtue of his or her professional credential or state license (such as a paramedic or emergency medical technician, for example), such CAP member in complying with his or her legal obligations shall be deemed to be doing so either as the agent of his or her employer or as an agent of the state agency that issued his or her license, but in no event as the agent of CAP.

Particular emphasis is placed on the final part: but in no event as the agent of CAP.

You can do anything you are trained, and in some cases required, to do, but NOT as a representative of CAP. That's what it seems like the OP is advocating.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spam on September 23, 2016, 08:57:03 PM
Wait/wot?

I was the OP for the First Aid subtopic, within this Health Information thread (if I have your terms right). ALL I WAS AFTER, was to channel the energy of the chowder and marching society away from political debates and... unusual... health topics, towards providing a useful menu of options for local units to choose from to meet the quote, "First Aid", unquote, training requirement for the Ground Team 3 SQTR signoff. I provided the reg requirement.

There have been a couple of good point solutions so far, and then it seems to have veered off into debates about legalities.  I'd like to suggest that we stick to providing concrete training course options of use to local Commanders. If people want to debate levels of care, how about a new thread?

FIRST AID COURSES ONLY - PER THE REGS - PER THAT STANDARD LISTED (ONLY!)


Thanks, y'all.

V/R
Spam
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: DakRadz on September 23, 2016, 09:02:31 PM
I understand that. What I was trying to communicate is that you would be covered under "emergency first aid" for a vast majority of what an EMR is taught. Now, things like a bag valve mask (used to breathe for someone who isn't, for those who may not know) or probably a C-collar are different, but those also require you to actively carry additional gear with you, despite a responsibility to know CAP regulations.

I am too ADHD sometimes, and on a cell phone tend to ramble or meander. Hopefully that was more concise.

1st Lt Raduenz

Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: SarDragon on September 23, 2016, 09:06:01 PM
Wait/wot?

I was the OP for the First Aid subtopic, within this Health Information thread (if I have your terms right). ALL I WAS AFTER, was to channel the energy of the chowder and marching society away from political debates and... unusual... health topics, towards providing a useful menu of options for local units to choose from to meet the quote, "First Aid", unquote, training requirement for the Ground Team 3 SQTR signoff. I provided the reg requirement.

There have been a couple of good point solutions so far, and then it seems to have veered off into debates about legalities.  I'd like to suggest that we stick to providing concrete training course options of use to local Commanders. If people want to debate levels of care, how about a new thread?

FIRST AID COURSES ONLY - PER THE REGS - PER THAT STANDARD LISTED (ONLY!)


Thanks, y'all.

V/R
Spam

Oops. Sorry. Really. You are absolutely correct.

Your channeling effort is appreciated. One of the follow-on replies was my actual focus.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on September 24, 2016, 12:11:57 AM
I have put it out before but appropriate to the conversation
Emergency Care and Safety Institute (Jones and Bartlett..the publisher that sells the books)
No cost to establish an Education Center (there are actually a number of CAP units and wings that are listed)
instructors can be grandfathered without taking their instructor course with existing or past credentials, and that grandfathering is usually up to the education center to determine (ie a CAP member who is an EMT/Paramedic/Nurse/Doctor who has taken the CAP instructor course would be appropriate to teach), there is also an instructor trainer course available
You pay for the cost of books per student (they do also have in the past allowed certain organizations to library their books, and just purchase cards)
You must have at least one purchase by someone affiliated with the ed center of the instructor tool kit package for any course you are teaching

Courses that may appropriate to CAP:
CPR
Proffessional Rescuer CPR
Basic First Aid (the instructor tool kit disk is basic first aid and CPR in one) ie $15.95 per book, and the instructor tool kit is $150
Advanced First Aid
Wilderness First Aid (this one actually has 8/16/32 hour content options)
Emergency Medical Responder

Any other cost is what you as an education center choose to charge

MK
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: DakRadz on September 24, 2016, 12:28:20 AM
~snip~

Thanks Mark!
I can use this for CA (a lot, if I find the time to set it up), though not for work.

1st Lt Raduenz
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 24, 2016, 03:26:12 AM
I have put it out before but appropriate to the conversation
Emergency Care and Safety Institute (Jones and Bartlett..the publisher that sells the books)


While ECSI books, like all textboofs are expensive, used copies of the previous edition are available on the web

Here's the "Advanced First Aid, Cpr and Aed" 6th edition for $1.72

http://www.ecampus.com/advanced-first-aid-cpr-aed-6th-aaos/bk/9781449609467

and there are numerous listings on eBay.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 24, 2016, 03:43:50 AM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spam on September 24, 2016, 04:59:08 AM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf


It sounds like the ECSI option is a packaged, stand alone course (as described with the instructor kit).  While the ARC First Aid text might be available, that does not sound like a complete course package. Are you implying that it is, or do you have a follow up to make this a complete option?

I appreciate the provision of a free reference, but we are in need of complete, viable, affordable options.


Thanks, though - keep them coming - next?
Spam


Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 26, 2016, 04:30:01 AM
Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf


It sounds like the ECSI option is a packaged, stand alone course (as described with the instructor kit).  While the ARC First Aid text might be available, that does not sound like a complete course package. Are you implying that it is, or do you have a follow up to make this a complete option?

I appreciate the provision of a free reference, but we are in need of complete, viable, affordable options.


Thanks, though - keep them coming - next?
Spam

Because the ARC text is free while the ECSI's is $15 for each copy,

http://www.ecsinstitute.org/courses/detail.aspx/9781284131109

 it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on September 26, 2016, 04:46:57 AM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on September 26, 2016, 05:11:21 AM
... snip...

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.

Dont get me wrong I dont think those courses adequately prepare members for the potential issues that may be encountered in an ES operation, but CAP thinks otherwise; they dont even care if you are certified, they just want trained.   I think getting them a card of some kind from an accredited organization (even if the course is very "basic".) is better than nothing (there also is a hard play to fall back on "training from Dave at the Fire Department"  no matter how well trained or good meaning Dave and the local FD may have been)

I think that everyone that does SAR should be at minimum an EMR.  But thats just opinion and I am enough of a realist to know that is not a thing that is ever going to happen w/o federal mandate or associated funding.  We cant even figure out how to fund a course that is in essence $20 per member, taught by our own people.  What is the adequate level of training for CAP members?

MK
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: THRAWN on September 26, 2016, 01:48:50 PM
... snip...

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.

Dont get me wrong I dont think those courses adequately prepare members for the potential issues that may be encountered in an ES operation, but CAP thinks otherwise; they dont even care if you are certified, they just want trained.   I think getting them a card of some kind from an accredited organization (even if the course is very "basic".) is better than nothing (there also is a hard play to fall back on "training from Dave at the Fire Department"  no matter how well trained or good meaning Dave and the local FD may have been)

I think that everyone that does SAR should be at minimum an EMR.  But thats just opinion and I am enough of a realist to know that is not a thing that is ever going to happen w/o federal mandate or associated funding.  We cant even figure out how to fund a course that is in essence $20 per member, taught by our own people.  What is the adequate level of training for CAP members?

MK

Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Spaceman3750 on September 26, 2016, 05:05:50 PM
I do not recommend becoming ARC instructor certified to teach for CAP. Teaching outside of a chapter or company with an authorized provider agreement is almost impossible.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RogueLeader on September 26, 2016, 08:36:05 PM
Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....

I'm just curious as to how many other SAR Groups have EMR as a prerequisite.  For the SAR Groups around here don't ave it as far as I know.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: THRAWN on September 26, 2016, 09:35:39 PM
Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....

I'm just curious as to how many other SAR Groups have EMR as a prerequisite.  For the SAR Groups around here don't ave it as far as I know.

I'd have to say more of them than fewer of them. Keep in mind, this is akin to the old "first responder" designator which was less than an EMT but more than the guy that got his first aid card from his job. It's probably required at a minimum. There are around 700 SAR/ES/EMS outfits in NJ alone. I'm sure it varies by state.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spam on September 26, 2016, 10:22:27 PM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.


Eclipse, I think you've stated that more concisely than I did above - we're looking for a complete training package (which might consist of an online course, PLUS a hands on element, or an entirely in person course, which meets the listed content requirements.

Folks, we may all have a hundred different options of "What If"/"What Should Be", all of which should be the topic of a new Health Services (or whatever) thread and debate.  For this topic, though, I was looking for "What Meets The Current Requirement".  So far, we have a couple of good options - any more?


Thanks
Spam


Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 29, 2016, 04:31:07 AM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Spaceman3750 on September 29, 2016, 02:25:50 PM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.

Which part? Eclipse is 100% accurate on the ARC part - in order to submit a course report and certify people, the instructor has to name each individual passing and then has to supply a credit card number to pay the fee charged by ARC for each person. Source: I was an ARC instructor until I lapsed.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: DakRadz on September 29, 2016, 02:48:26 PM
Okay, we all wandered a lot, so maybe I missed this, but-

We are only required to Complete Basic First Aid Training.

While it would be nice to have a card stating the same, we only have to provide our members with competent, effective first aid training - yes?

Technically, then, we can just hold the class as someone who has completed the training before (much like instructors are chosen for conferences or anything else) despite not having a teaching certificate.

I get that a card is best for many reasons, but at the level we are allowed to perform, many underfunded squadrons would do well to research their home state Good Samaritan law (Ohio- no pay or expectation of pay) and do the training with "Dave at the FD/VFD" or "Brian at the EMS company" especially if Dave or Brian is in CAP and understands what needs taught.


If you want to argue course specifics, you are addressing Spam.

I believe RN was asking why "free" is unacceptable for CAP- where does is say we need a card? (And to address what I saw on the SQTR just now, every single task asks for a certificate number, even though not all of them have one- so that's not relevant to me)

1st Lt Raduenz
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: GrandMoffClark on September 29, 2016, 03:01:19 PM
If that's the case that you don't need a card, why not just spend the $4.99 for the Boy Scout First Aid Merit Badge pamphlet and teach that?
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on September 29, 2016, 03:07:20 PM
Because the above is not the case. 

There is a very specific standard of training that must be met, certified by an outside, non-CAP body, that is
unambiguous in the regulations.

There is no way for a member to self-certify meeting the standard without the backing of the instructor
credentials of a training company, and those companies do not provide the certification unless you pay their fees.

Like it or not, just as with pilot training, CAP does not want to self-certify for First Aid, they want disinterested
3rd parties (presumably with their own deep pockets) to provide that training, again, presumably,  that way if
you put a tourniquet around someone's neck and say "that's what I was taught", there's someone else on the hook.

There's no other conclusion to come to on this if you actually read the CAP regs, the OSHA standard, and other related
docs, not to mention any number of us have had these direct conversations with the Ops directorate over and over and over and over.
(yeah, appeals to a higher authority).

Until the mandate, standard, and regulations are changed, that is the state of CAP as of today, it hasn't changed for
over a decade, and isn't going to change anytime soon.

Also, consider this, which is nontrivial...

When you see the levels of corners that many members, even CCs will cut for "field expediency", do you really
want people internally saying "yeah, he's good" about First Aid training?  At least a 3rd party has no vested interest
in the student passing "because he needs a GTL next week for the eval" (etc.).
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Holding Pattern on September 29, 2016, 05:32:34 PM
Okay, we all wandered a lot, so maybe I missed this, but-

We are only required to Complete Basic First Aid Training.

While it would be nice to have a card stating the same, we only have to provide our members with competent, effective first aid training - yes?

Technically, then, we can just hold the class as someone who has completed the training before (much like instructors are chosen for conferences or anything else) despite not having a teaching certificate.


Nope.

CAPR 60-3:

Quote
When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf (http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf) or ASTM F 2171-
02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational
Settings

You will find that both documents include language like:

Quote
First Aid Program Development
The ultimate liability for standardized instructional programs rests with the producer.23 An
organization promoting a standardized instructional system designed and tested by a
professional body, drawing on the talent and experience of recognized experts in the field and
outside consultants should be willing and able to easily identify and document not only their
source for appropriate medical treatment guidelines, but also be readily capable of producing
reasonably acceptable criteria for:
• Course curriculum and lesson format.
• Successful completion of the course by learners.
Instructor certification measures, including revocation procedures with due process.
• Administration and course record management.
• Ongoing quality assurance.
Medical oversight is paramount in ensuring the highest quality out-of-hospital care. Program
developers should work with medical professionals to review first aid training program curriculum
in order to achieve a sound method of continuous quality improvement.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: DakRadz on September 29, 2016, 05:56:07 PM
Starfleet- fair enough.

Currently juggling 3 jobs for 4 employers as I transition to new FT work, haven't been able to look at those manuals- thank you.

So it does cost money. Question answered. Now, back to Spam's "best and cheapest option" discussion.

1st Lt Raduenz
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on September 29, 2016, 06:34:44 PM
Hey, folks, don't forget to change the subject lines to reflect the specific area of discussion. Clicking Reply grabs the thread subject; clicking quote grabs the subject of the post you are quoting.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on September 30, 2016, 02:47:09 AM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.

Which part? Eclipse is 100% accurate on the ARC part - in order to submit a course report and certify people, the instructor has to name each individual passing and then has to supply a credit card number to pay the fee charged by ARC for each person. Source: I was an ARC instructor until I lapsed.

Thanks for your input but I think you omitted important information and ignore part of Eclipse's assertions.

First, how much is the fee that the ARC requires to issue the card? Recall that we are assuming that the instructor, a CAP member, is donating his time so there would be no instructor fee. Also there would be no venue fee, Given these conditions, what would the card cost?

 Or does the ARC expressly forbid an instructor from donating his efforts in a class that will lead to certification.

The ARC has posted their basic first aid handbook online for free download. Will the ARC  still require the purchase of the same handbook for completing the class?

BTW, how current is your information  since you admittedly are no longer an instructor?

Title: Health information
Post by: Spaceman3750 on September 30, 2016, 03:05:02 AM
it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.

Which part? Eclipse is 100% accurate on the ARC part - in order to submit a course report and certify people, the instructor has to name each individual passing and then has to supply a credit card number to pay the fee charged by ARC for each person. Source: I was an ARC instructor until I lapsed.

Thanks for your input but I think you omitted important information and ignore part of Eclipse's assertions.

First, how much is the fee that the ARC requires to issue the card? Recall that we are assuming that the instructor, a CAP member, is donating his time so there would be no instructor fee. Also there would be no venue fee, Given these conditions, what would the card cost?

 Or does the ARC expressly forbid an instructor from donating his efforts in a class that will lead to certification.

The ARC has posted their basic first aid handbook online for free download. Will the ARC  still require the purchase of the same handbook for completing the class?

BTW, how current is your information  since you admittedly are no longer an instructor?

Recent enough. While I was told by another instructor that the curriculum was recently revised, under the big overhaul of the last revision students only needed a ready reference card, which could be printed. This was a big change when it came out circa-2011. I have strong reasons to believe this is still the case.

Prices vary based on AP agreement, and that's the kicker. ARC has made it extremely difficult for instructors to teach outside of the chapter. The terminology has changed a bit, but essentially you must be teaching either for the chapter at a chapter-scheduled class, or an authorized provider, under whatever rules the contract lays out.

That is why I didn't renew with ARC - the hurdles to teach to anyone but a $90 each ARC sponsored class are very high.

Eclipse's statements are generally true. There is no free training that produces a certificate from ARC. Any instructor who does is on their own - you literally can't submit the students for certificates without paying up. The instructor can donate all the time he wants, they're still getting their fee. In my experience, everyone doesn't have to buy the book individually, but chapters and APs may have their own policies so that may be his experience. I also don't believe that is what he was saying.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: RNOfficer on September 30, 2016, 03:39:09 AM


Quote
Eclipse's statements are generally true. There is no free training that produces a certificate from ARC. Any instructor who does is on their own - you literally can't submit the students for certificates without paying up. The instructor can donate all the time he wants, they're still getting their fee. In my experience, everyone doesn't have to buy the book individually, but chapters and APs may have their own policies so that may be his experience. I also don't believe that is what he was saying.

No one on this thread has claimed that an ARC certification would be free. The question is if the CAP provided its own instructor and venue, how much would the ARC charge for issuing the card? Maybe no one knows. Maybe CAP would have to become an "authorized provider" for this to happen.

My point is that no one here knows the answers to these questions. It should be addressed at the NHQ level by the medical or health services.
Title: Updated information about mosquito repellent and Zika
Post by: RNOfficer on September 30, 2016, 03:52:29 AM
Updated information about mosquito repellent and Zika

http://www.consumerreports.org/insect-repellents/mosquito-repellents-that-best-protect-against-zika/

Pregnant Women with Lab Evidence of Zika Virus Infection*
US States and DC: 808
US Territories: 1,490

Zika Virus Disease Cases Reported to ArboNET*
US States and DC: 3,625
US Territories: 22,069


Aedes mosquitoes range

http://www.cdc.gov/zika/pdfs/zika-mosquito-maps.pdf

Note that the above maps do not show areas where Zika virus has been found. They show the potential range given the range of its vector.

Protection against Zika

http://www.cdc.gov/zika/prevention/protect-yourself-and-others.html

Because humans are the only known reservoir  for Zika and the symptoms are often very mild  coupled with the extensive range of the Aedes mosquitoe, the potential for Zika's spread is high.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on September 30, 2016, 04:28:54 AM
My point is that no one here knows the answers to these questions. It should be addressed at the NHQ level by the medical or health services.

Several people here know the answer, you just don't want to hear it.

ASHI charges $10 per student for materials and registration when the instructor provides their services pro-bono.
The last time I checked the ARC was more (their classes are generally more expensive on the mean.  I won't quote a number
but you could get one with a phone call to ARC instead of waiting for NHQ to "discuss it").  You will also likely be told "we don't allow that".

The ARC and similar groups may be "non-profit" (from a legal perspective), but they are not, and never have been, "non-revenue",
they have a huge machine of employees and services to fuel, and as-such, they and other such groups strongly discourage
pro-bono instruction.

You may also recall that CAP recently signed an MOU with the ARC and the sum total of the "agreement" was essentially
each one recognized the other had a right to exist, and it "encouraged cooperation".  However I can tell you from direct
experience that while the ARC is very excited to mine our membership for volunteers, they are not particularity interested, especially at the local
level, in members providing assistance in uniform, and as soon as assistance or activities start costing them revenue, that
"cooperation" begins to fade.

Could CAP fund the training for a member(s) to become First Aid instructors who then provide that training to other members?
Sure can, BTDT, to the tune of about $1000 from my Group's funds (when you include the CPR dummies and other materials).
The member taught a couple of classes in his home squadron, quit less then a year later, and out the door went that money.
I seem to recall he took the dummies with him.

For any such plan to be effective would take 2-3 members (at least) per wing, probably more, since there would be no funding for travel. So you're looking at somewhere between $78k to $150K, with no guarantee those people stay members 1 day after the training ends.

That's why it's not a good idea, and NHQ isn't interested in "discussing it".
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 30, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
I have stated on similar forums before the actual pricing from the American Heart Association.

The current pricing is $15 for the card and $15 for the book.

I am still a current AHA instructor, have my own business but do not teach under my own company since I have another full time job so I am too busy to push my company. I do teach Basic Life Support to health care providers and Heartsaver First Aid CPR AED to non-healthcare providers part-time for another company.

The basic pricing is this:

Class costs to the general public is about $75. Of this, $30 covers the card and book. $45 would cover other costs like gauze, lungs, valves for the masks, and profit for the instructor.

As part of my instructor agreement, I have to follow the AHA protocol. These state that every student has to have a book during and after class, a card, and we have to be supervised by a training center, AHA training faculty reserve the right to show unannounced at a training to make sure that the AHA policies are being held to.

Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on October 01, 2016, 11:58:36 AM
...snip...

For any such plan to be effective would take 2-3 members (at least) per wing, probably more, since there would be no funding for travel. So you're looking at somewhere between $78k to $150K, with no guarantee those people stay members 1 day after the training ends.

That's why it's not a good idea, and NHQ isn't interested in "discussing it".

I dont mean to sound like a doubting Thomas, but would you mind breaking that cost down, because it seems a little high; I am just curious where that cost comes from. (or do you mean for the whole organization?)

mk
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on October 01, 2016, 12:57:47 PM
...snip...

For any such plan to be effective would take 2-3 members (at least) per wing, probably more, since there would be no funding for travel. So you're looking at somewhere between $78k to $150K, with no guarantee those people stay members 1 day after the training ends.

That's why it's not a good idea, and NHQ isn't interested in "discussing it".

I dont mean to sound like a doubting Thomas, but would you mind breaking that cost down, because it seems a little high; I am just curious where that cost comes from. (or do you mean for the whole organization?)

mk

That's just based on my personal experience, and why the range is so wide - it cost my group ~$1000 for training and equipment for one instructor, which included
adult and infant dummies, etc.  The result was "one guy" in the NE corner of the state with no interest in venturing out beyond his local area (he was happy enough
to do it for people that came to him, but that's a typical CAP situation for just about anything, and winds up being harder then 1-person doing outcall).

My wing would need at least 3, probably better to have 5 instructors to cover the area, most wings would need that many.

So 52 wings x $1000 = $52k x 3 = ~156K

Some wings would do with less, some would need more, and costs might vary, but looking quickly online I see that the
basic cost is about the same, maybe a little higher depending on what you consider "equipment", and of course CAP
should be able to leverage it's .gov status for better pricing.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 01, 2016, 01:08:22 PM
Eclipse was the one that came with those numbers, but I can imagine where the costs come from.

Mostly equipment.

The American Heart Association instructor manual and video cost is about $150.

Then the Instructor Agreement states that "there should be enough manikins for every student to practice. You need one manikin for every three students. You cannot have more than 9 students in each class."

Although there is a wide selection of manikins available, some are cheaper, others are pricier, that is a huge investment. What I bought for my company were Baby Annes (infant), Little Juniors (child), and Little Annes (adult).

Baby Anne price, $116
Little Junior price, $210
Little Anne price, $234
AED trainer price estimate, $100

So you need three stations per instructor to teach 9 students, each station with 1 AED trainer, 1 adult or child, and 1 infant at a cost of $1,272 per station or $3,816 

100x3=300
210x3=630
116x3=342

Let us not forget disposables and items to keep the training sanitary. Adding training masks and disposable valves, you need 10 masks adult and 10 masks infant with 10 disposable valves, you now have $72.50

Pocket mask adult, $30
Pocket mask infant, $30
Training valves 10 at $1.25, $12.50

Just to start training, I would need three stations at $1,980 ea, or $3,888 for the three stations. And the instructor manual, another $150. Most of these costs are one time. But I need 9 valves per station each time I hold a class.

This is a cost of $4,038 per instructor to start giving classes. I did not include airways for each, the airways would have to be changed to a new one per class, and they are sold in packages of about $50 for about 24. Although you may be able to get cheaper manikins like the Sani Man and Sani Baby at about $100 each. And I have not factored in there the cost of giving First Aid classes...

The prices quoted are from Channing Bete. Don't believe it? Find for yourself!

 ;)
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on October 01, 2016, 01:59:01 PM
Yowsa - that's $200k for one per wing. $600k for three.  There was also upftont cost for the certification itself,
which was about $4-500 at the time, no idea what that is today, certainly not less.

For whatever reason only one of each dummy was purchased, I think because CPR isn't required in CAP (nor AED).

For the record, I was not the person who thought this was a good idea, nor approved the expense at the time.


Also consider that the operational budget of many (most?) wings is under $25k per year, and you're looking
at $4-12k+ on first aid instructors?  Further to that, only probably less then 1/2 the membership is involved in ES to need it to start with.

CAP would be much better off just funding private training for those who need it (though that ain't cheap, either). My wing would probably
cost about $12k a year for that (at $50 per person).

Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 01, 2016, 03:21:10 PM
Since I am working full time and have a part-time job, I can offer classes to CAP members at $30 per person. $15 for the book, and $15 for the certificate. I "eat" the $2 or $3 per student above that.

If I would not be working full time, I would have to charge $33 or $35 per person instead.

You are probably right in that the reason for 1 manikin is that there is a requirement for First Aid but not CPR. When I teach these classes to CAP personnel, I see CPR as an added bonus.

If it is expected the Wing to fund these classes, it may be best to fund individuals.

Is there a way to find out how many CAP members are currently certified as Ground Team 3? A total amount? I would like to estimate how much would it have cost all of them to take the First Aid class.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Eclipse on October 01, 2016, 03:38:37 PM
Is there a way to find out how many CAP members are currently certified as Ground Team 3? A total amount? I would like to estimate how much would it have cost all of them to take the First Aid class.

You should be able to run reports within your wing, nationally would need someone at that level.
Title: Re: basic first Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on October 01, 2016, 04:22:17 PM
Not to endorse any organization more than another, this is why I shy away from the ARC for training.  Its money that needs to go into their pocket first, and training people is second, even for a partner/supporting organization like CAP.

I still think that the USAF SABC concept would be fine for CAP's first aid requirement.  Other than cost of supplies (which again the USAF may be able to supply the training kits at least 1 to a CAP wing) the training is free.  I suppose the only catch is you need to find a USAF level Wing SABC coordinator that would do the trainer course and monitor instructors at a class (USAF or CAP). 
"Someone" would have to migrate the USAF CBT to the CAP online training section of E-services.
"Someone"  would have to interact between CAP and USAF to make sure updated CBT or other SABC program changes are communicated/updated to CAP (National HSO level)

As far as the desire for CPR, the military also runs its own CPR training center Military Training Network which provide AHA affiliated courses and certification to all the services.  Free (again would have to fall under the "...commanders may provide support training..." line of the AFI.) Down side is that not everywhere in the civilian world will take an MTN card the same as an AHA card

MK
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 01, 2016, 05:12:28 PM
The information about the American Red Cross posted here so far seems to be putting the Red Cross in a bad light because they charge for their classes and these are not provided free of charge.

Before I certified as an AHA instructor I was an ARC instructor.

I think it would be highly relevant to illustrate the complete mission of the ARC, so to speak, paint the entire picture.

When there is a fire or other emergency, the ARC has crew to provide assistance. This crew has to be paid for the 24-hr coverage. This crew finds 1) shelter for those burned out of their homes and pays for it; 2) gives a little money to start them on the recovery. They have other programs like providing blood banks.

Some of this is paid by donations, some is provided by volunteers. But not enough to be able to do all. Sounds familiar? Wow! Just like CAP! We do not charge for our Search and Rescue since the Air Force sends us money and we have volunteers! The ARC needs another source to be able to provide all the services they do. These are 24 times 7. That is where their classes come into the program. These classes also need funding to develop and pay for them.

The ARC military program is another animal. The US Congress assigns funds to the Red Cross to work with the military. That is why... the ARC does not charge the military, since they have been paid to provide these services, so any other funds the ARC receives are not used for this program.

The American Heart Association works in a similar manner. They offer services like scanning for heart attack and stroke causes. They do not charge too much for this if at all, since the classes pay for part of that cost.


 :)
Title: Re: Health information and The American Red Cross Handbook
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 01, 2016, 07:56:31 PM
Some people have expressed on this venue that the American Red Cross has posted their handbook online.

If you are talking about this one, http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf, this handbook is old.

Every 5 years or so, there is a meeting of all agencies teaching CPR to come to an agreement on changes in the field of CPR and First Aid. After that, each of them make changes and publish their version of these agreements.

The handbook listed here reflects -- and it clearly states -- in page iii "This manual reflects the 2010 Consensus on Science for CPR and Emergency Cardiovascular Care (ECC) and the Guidelines 2010 for First Aid."

However there was a consensus in 2015. This became known as the "2015 International Consensus on First Aid Science With Treatment Recommendations." See http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/132/16_suppl_1.

This convention happened in October 2015.

If you want the latest handbooks, look for handbooks that state they conform to the 2015 Consensus on CPR Science.

I had to throw out several DVDs and manuals. I threw out and replaced my BLS instructor DVD, my Heartsaver First Aid CPR AED DVD, and will have to throw out my copy of the Heartsaver Pediatric First Aid CPR AED DVD. At the tune of about $150 each. As well as several copies of student handbooks. At the tune of $15 each.
Title: Reduce sodium to lower blood pressure
Post by: RNOfficer on October 08, 2016, 01:22:39 AM
Ninety percent of Americans consume more sodium than recommended by the CDC and the American Heart Association.

Excess sodium can contribute  to high blood pressure, a cause of heart disease and stroke. One-third of American adults have high blood pressure. And 90 percent of American adults are expected to develop high blood pressure over their lifetimes.

For reasons not well understood,  not only is high blood pressure more prevalent in blacks than whites, but it also develops earlier in life.More than 40 percent of non-Hispanic black adults have high blood pressure.

Reducing sodium in your diet is the easiest way to reduce high blood pressure

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/HealthyLiving/HealthyEating/Nutrition/Sodium-and-Salt_UCM_303290_Article.jsp#.V_hHPsmeLtR

Manufactures of processed and prepared foods add sodium both because it is a preservative and because the public demands food with a salty taste

For example Campbell's Bean and Bacon soup has 36% of the RDA in a half-cup serving. Of course the typical "serving" is, at least, a full cup.

There is disagreement in research findings about the impact of very low sodium intake but because almost everyone consumes too much sodium, it wouldn't be discussed here.

How to reduce sodium in your diet,

https://sodiumbreakup.heart.org/how_to_reduce_sodium?utm_source=SRI&utm_medium=HeartOrg&utm_term=Website&utm_content=SodiumAndSalt&utm_campaign=SodiumBreakupis

As always, this post is only general medical information. See your PCP for health information specific to you.

Title: Time for flu shots
Post by: RNOfficer on October 08, 2016, 02:23:44 AM
Something else that's new for 2016-2017 is that CDC only recommends people get injectable flu vaccines (flu shots) this season. Live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV) – or the nasal spray vaccine – is not recommended for use during the 2016-2017 season because of concerns about its effectiveness. There are still many different vaccine options this season. Some flu shots protect against three flu viruses and some protect against four flu viruses.

Also new: Higher dosage for older than 65

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm

Egg Free Flu vaccine

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_flublok-vaccine.htm

Flu Vaccine With Adjuvant

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/adjuvant.htm

Everyone 6 months and older should get a flu vaccine every year by the end of October, if possible. However, getting vaccinated later can still be protective since flu viruses can circulate into May during some seasons. For this reason, vaccination should continue throughout the flu season, even in January or later. Some young children might need two doses of vaccine. A health care provider can advise on how many doses a child should get.

There are some people who should not get a flu vaccine. A person who has previously experienced a severe allergic reaction to flu vaccine, regardless of the component suspected of being responsible for the reaction, should not get a flu vaccine again.

http://www.cdc.gov/features/flu/index.html

As always, this post is general health information. See your PCP for information specific to you.
Title: Re: Time for flu shots
Post by: etodd on October 08, 2016, 03:18:09 AM

There are some people who should not get a flu vaccine.

How do first timers react? I'm 60 years old and have never in my life had a flu shot, or experienced the flu. At this point I hate the idea of having it injected into me. Might mess up my seemingly natural immunity(?)
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: RNOfficer on October 08, 2016, 04:18:50 AM
This is something you should discuss with your PCP.

In general however, it should not make a difference if it's your first time. The injected vaccine is de-activated virus so it cannot cause you to get the flu.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Spam on October 08, 2016, 07:35:39 AM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam







Title: Re: basic first Aid
Post by: Spam on October 08, 2016, 07:40:07 AM
Not to endorse any organization more than another, this is why I shy away from the ARC for training.  Its money that needs to go into their pocket first, and training people is second, even for a partner/supporting organization like CAP.

I still think that the USAF SABC concept would be fine for CAP's first aid requirement.  Other than cost of supplies (which again the USAF may be able to supply the training kits at least 1 to a CAP wing) the training is free.  I suppose the only catch is you need to find a USAF level Wing SABC coordinator that would do the trainer course and monitor instructors at a class (USAF or CAP). 
"Someone" would have to migrate the USAF CBT to the CAP online training section of E-services.
"Someone"  would have to interact between CAP and USAF to make sure updated CBT or other SABC program changes are communicated/updated to CAP (National HSO level)

As far as the desire for CPR, the military also runs its own CPR training center Military Training Network which provide AHA affiliated courses and certification to all the services.  Free (again would have to fall under the "...commanders may provide support training..." line of the AFI.) Down side is that not everywhere in the civilian world will take an MTN card the same as an AHA card

MK

An example of a helpful, specific, constructive, post which answers the mission need.

Thanks!



Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Thonawit on October 08, 2016, 01:56:05 PM
I am Diabetic, I just finished 2 doughnuts...
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Thonawit on October 08, 2016, 02:35:35 PM
A great avenue for first aid training is via CERT (Community emergency Response Team). Last Fall as a Squadron, we went through CERT training, CERT did cover a variety of topics including First Aid. The cost for the course... Free.

Check with your County Emergency Manager for more information.

For those "internet parrots" that re-post (mis)information from the internet, you need to really read and research what you are parroting if you want to be helpful.

Like I said, I am diabetic (type 2) and I did have 2 doughnuts this morning. Is it going to kill me, NO. Am I going to have a reaction to the sugar load, NO. Do I eat Doughnuts all the time, NO. I work up this morning with my blood sugar lower than normal (78, on the low side in general). There were doughnuts in the house so I had 2, what will happen is my blood sugar will climb to about 195, and within an hour will drop to some where between 85 and 100. Coffee and 2 doughnuts is not the most nutritious meal, but it tasted good. 90% of the time my diet is great, 5% of the time it's ok (dining out), 5% of the time it's not the best (Doughnuts once every couple of weeks, or a lunch that comes from a drive thru bag).

Oh and I chased my High Blood Pressure and Diabetes meds with coffee...
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: stillamarine on October 08, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam

That was the reason this thread was created BY the admins. So RN could post health information that he felt was helpful to members. Don't like it don't click the thread. I don't read it every time but sometimes I feel like it.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: stillamarine on October 08, 2016, 02:54:30 PM
I haven't gotten a flu shot in years, I generally get sick as heck when I do. I do however arrange flu shot clinics for my department for people that do want it.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: PHall on October 08, 2016, 03:26:27 PM
Get my flu shot every year. Standard precaution is to take two Aspirin about a half hour prior to getting harpooned.
Keeps me from getting the post flu shot crud.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Holding Pattern on October 08, 2016, 10:14:54 PM
Get my flu shot every year. Standard precaution is to take two Aspirin about a half hour prior to getting harpooned.
Keeps me from getting the post flu shot crud.

Bad news, you may be mitigating the effect of the shot.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/2675/common-pain-relievers-may-dilute-power-of-flu-shots.aspx
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: PHall on October 08, 2016, 10:55:35 PM
Get my flu shot every year. Standard precaution is to take two Aspirin about a half hour prior to getting harpooned.
Keeps me from getting the post flu shot crud.

Bad news, you may be mitigating the effect of the shot.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/2675/common-pain-relievers-may-dilute-power-of-flu-shots.aspx

Badder news, I haven't had the flu for years now. So I guess the shot is still working.

Now my almost yearly case of "Winter Crud", (head cold that migrates to my chest and hangs on for 10-14 days), haven't found anything better then rest, fluids, tylonol and chicken soup.
Title: Re: Updated information about mosquito repellent and Zika- some good news
Post by: RNOfficer on October 09, 2016, 09:35:17 PM
Culex Mosquitoes Unlikely to be Zika Vectors

The Culex mosquito, which is common throughout North America, may not susceptible to transmitting the Zika virus, researchers found. There had been reports of Zika virus isolates from Culex mosquitoes, raising the question as to whether they could potentially act as secondary vectors for Zika.

But a study published in Vector-Borne and Zoonotic Diseases suggested otherwise. Researchers fed Culex mosquitoes blood meals containing Zika, but found a high degree of refractoriness, or insensitivity to stimulation to the virus -- even when the mosquitoes were exposed to high-titer blood meals.

The authors concluded that because of their findings, Florida should concentrate mosquito control efforts on both the Aedes aegypti and Aedes albopictus as sources of local transmission of Zika virus.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vbz.2016.2058?journalCode=vbz
Title: Re: Flu shots
Post by: RNOfficer on October 09, 2016, 09:45:02 PM
I haven't gotten a flu shot in years, I generally get sick as heck when I do. I do however arrange flu shot clinics for my department for people that do want it.


I heard lots of members say this.

If I were you I would discuss with your PCP why you get sick after a flu shot. It's scientifically  impossible to get the flu from a flu shot because the virus in the shot is inactivated. The nasal flu spray (Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine [LAIV])  does contains active but weakened virus. (As noted above, the LAIVI is NOT recommended by the CDC this year.)

http://www.livescience.com/55176-flu-nasal-spray-not-working.html

Maybe your reaction is to preservative in the vaccine or the eggs it was cultured in. Both mercury free and egg free vaccines available though you might have to search for a provider who has either of them.
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: grunt82abn on October 09, 2016, 10:20:41 PM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: stillamarine on October 10, 2016, 11:13:42 PM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I'm in the process of trying to get blow out kits for every officer in our department. Problem is we have almost 900 sworn personnel. City isn't going to pay for it. Trying to find some corporate help. I personally have 4 tourniquets within arms reach when in my unmarked car. But I may be crazy. All I know is I've seen them save lives and if it's mine or my brothers and sisters life it saves I guess I won't be that crazy.
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: grunt82abn on October 10, 2016, 11:34:31 PM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I'm in the process of trying to get blow out kits for every officer in our department. Problem is we have almost 900 sworn personnel. City isn't going to pay for it. Trying to find some corporate help. I personally have 4 tourniquets within arms reach when in my unmarked car. But I may be crazy. All I know is I've seen them save lives and if it's mine or my brothers and sisters life it saves I guess I won't be that crazy.
A lot of departments here are having the same issue, too big and not enough funding for the simplest life devices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: stillamarine on October 10, 2016, 11:51:59 PM
Don't give a rodents ass about these (reposted) health issues, where I can find them in a hundred other sites.

Do care about health specific info if it helps me qualify my members to execute the ES mission.

I have challenged you "alleged" Health Service Officers to provide a set of mission-relevant First Aid training options for local units in accordance with current CAP regs. This is an outstanding, real world, mission focused need that is of far more immediate relevance to CAP missions than reposted about vaccines. We need affordable, easy options to get people signed off IAW current regs (disagree with them or not).

Can you deliver, or just spout more reposted BS about blood pressure and the salt in a half cup of soup?

Holding out hope,
Spam

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I'm in the process of trying to get blow out kits for every officer in our department. Problem is we have almost 900 sworn personnel. City isn't going to pay for it. Trying to find some corporate help. I personally have 4 tourniquets within arms reach when in my unmarked car. But I may be crazy. All I know is I've seen them save lives and if it's mine or my brothers and sisters life it saves I guess I won't be that crazy.
A lot of departments here are having the same issue, too big and not enough funding for the simplest life devices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A friend owns a company, Blaze Defense Systems, that does all that kinda stuff. We came together with a vehicle visor mounted kit for about $135. I may be able to do that as we'd need about 400 kits. Patrol has shared cars with most of the specialty units having take homes. I'm looking at grants and corporate benefactors. Luckily my assignment puts me out in the community quite a bit with outreach projects. Unfortunately I'm slammed with projects that this is on a back burner.
Title: Psychological First Aid
Post by: RNOfficer on October 11, 2016, 12:05:02 AM
It's World Mental Health Day so I'm posting this FREE course on Psychological First Aid

http://learn.nctsn.org/enrol/index.php?id=38
Title: Cold Weather is Approaching
Post by: grunt82abn on October 11, 2016, 12:38:41 AM
With winter and cold weather just around the corner, thought I would post something to get us in the right mind set. The following is from both CAP and USAF. Stay Warm my friends!!!

www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_808680090841177761.ppt

http://hprc-online.org/environment/files/air-force-guidance-memorandum-to-afpam-48-151-thermal-injury
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: RNOfficer on October 11, 2016, 01:51:09 AM

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I completely agree that knowing how to stop bleeding is a critical skill. Sometimes direct pressure does not work and I've only seen pressure points used effectively one time. I carry QuikClot in my bag but I would only use it if the above methods fail. QuikClot is not easy to clean from a wound when the victim gets to the ER although the newer version on a gauze pad is significantly easier,
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: grunt82abn on October 11, 2016, 02:24:19 AM

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I completely agree that knowing how to stop bleeding is a critical skill. Sometimes direct pressure does not work and I've only seen pressure points used effectively one time. I carry QuikClot in my bag but I would only use it if the above methods fail. QuikClot is not easy to clean from a wound when the victim gets to the ER although the newer version on a gauze pad is significantly easier,

QuikClot is another awesome tool
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: stillamarine on October 12, 2016, 12:45:17 AM

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I completely agree that knowing how to stop bleeding is a critical skill. Sometimes direct pressure does not work and I've only seen pressure points used effectively one time. I carry QuikClot in my bag but I would only use it if the above methods fail. QuikClot is not easy to clean from a wound when the victim gets to the ER although the newer version on a gauze pad is significantly easier,

From what I've seen quikclot granules are pretty much frowned on. I know when it first came out and we were overseas they were quick to say don't use it unless it was life or death because it played hell on the wound. I understand the gauze is much much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: stillamarine on October 12, 2016, 12:46:17 AM
With winter and cold weather just around the corner, thought I would post something to get us in the right mind set. The following is from both CAP and USAF. Stay Warm my friends!!!

www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_808680090841177761.ppt

http://hprc-online.org/environment/files/air-force-guidance-memorandum-to-afpam-48-151-thermal-injury

Eh it's subjective. It's been so hot in Bama I think winter ain't never coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: grunt82abn on October 12, 2016, 01:04:42 AM

I am not an HSO, but after a crazy weekend at the department, my biggest take away this week after bi-lateral lateral arm trauma with deep wounds: Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control, Bleeding Control!!! Used 6 Israeli dressings and 2 Combat Action Tourniquets to stop the bleeding. This a national campaign right now with National Registry. Hope this is what you were referring to!

http://www.bleedingcontrol.org (http://www.bleedingcontrol.org)

I completely agree that knowing how to stop bleeding is a critical skill. Sometimes direct pressure does not work and I've only seen pressure points used effectively one time. I carry QuikClot in my bag but I would only use it if the above methods fail. QuikClot is not easy to clean from a wound when the victim gets to the ER although the newer version on a gauze pad is significantly easier,

From what I've seen quikclot granules are pretty much frowned on. I know when it first came out and we were overseas they were quick to say don't use it unless it was life or death because it played hell on the wound. I understand the gauze is much much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A change in recipe a couple of years back has made it safer, and no endothermic properties. It has been now been approved for use in Fedfire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: grunt82abn on October 12, 2016, 01:06:09 AM
With winter and cold weather just around the corner, thought I would post something to get us in the right mind set. The following is from both CAP and USAF. Stay Warm my friends!!!

www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_808680090841177761.ppt

http://hprc-online.org/environment/files/air-force-guidance-memorandum-to-afpam-48-151-thermal-injury

Eh it's subjective. It's been so hot in Bama I think winter ain't never coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right!!! Our weather dude in Milwaukee says we are pretty much in Go a good ole stomping the year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: stillamarine on October 12, 2016, 01:15:34 AM
It has not rained in central Alabama in 23 days. None in sight either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: sarmed1 on October 12, 2016, 02:37:52 AM
The current change in C-TECC recommendations moves to any of the accepted hemostatic agent gauze types for wound packing vs the other agent types.  TQ's are still the preference for severe extremity bleeding.  There are a large number of types on the market, all with advantages and disadvantages.  One source for funding I would look to is the local trauma center.  They usually have money available and or know how to find medical specific grants.  The way to hook it is the money spent will go toward decreasing the risk of mortality in trauma.  They dont even have to do the research, its already there.  The next trick is getting the officers to carry the kits, because most already have 8 bazillion things on the duty belt.

mk

Title: Re: Health information
Post by: stillamarine on October 12, 2016, 01:52:59 PM
The current change in C-TECC recommendations moves to any of the accepted hemostatic agent gauze types for wound packing vs the other agent types.  TQ's are still the preference for severe extremity bleeding.  There are a large number of types on the market, all with advantages and disadvantages.  One source for funding I would look to is the local trauma center.  They usually have money available and or know how to find medical specific grants.  The way to hook it is the money spent will go toward decreasing the risk of mortality in trauma.  They dont even have to do the research, its already there.  The next trick is getting the officers to carry the kits, because most already have 8 bazillion things on the duty belt.

mk

Thanks! I didn't even think about that!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: HandsomeWalt_USMC on October 12, 2016, 05:29:50 PM
I keep two packets of combat gauze in my trauma plate pocket on my internal vest and a CAT TQ in my sap pocket when wearing class A/B uniform. In our class C "soft" uniform (Polo or sweater) I wear an external vest carrier that has a trauma kit pocket next to the radio pocket. That has 2x combat gauze, izzy dressing, TQ, and my narcan kit.
I'll try to find the link for it, but one of the TC3 companies is marketing a vest mounted slim IFAK that is velcro covered and attaches where the lower vest straps attach. Another company has a vacuum packed bleeder kit designed to fit in the trauma plate pocket. Ankle rigs are another option for carrying a basic bleeder lot on duty. There's plenty of options on the market now to keep a bleeder kit on your person on duty. I won't even work a detail without my vest and a bleeder kit.
Title: Bleeding Injuries
Post by: stillamarine on October 12, 2016, 10:24:45 PM
I keep two packets of combat gauze in my trauma plate pocket on my internal vest and a CAT TQ in my sap pocket when wearing class A/B uniform. In our class C "soft" uniform (Polo or sweater) I wear an external vest carrier that has a trauma kit pocket next to the radio pocket. That has 2x combat gauze, izzy dressing, TQ, and my narcan kit.
I'll try to find the link for it, but one of the TC3 companies is marketing a vest mounted slim IFAK that is velcro covered and attaches where the lower vest straps attach. Another company has a vacuum packed bleeder kit designed to fit in the trauma plate pocket. Ankle rigs are another option for carrying a basic bleeder lot on duty. There's plenty of options on the market now to keep a bleeder kit on your person on duty. I won't even work a detail without my vest and a bleeder kit.

 My buddy's company does the vest one. I'm plain clothes and still have them in ready reach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: Jaison009 on October 13, 2016, 01:32:35 AM
I have been both an ARC and AHA Instructor. The ARC Instructor would likely be an authorized provider or licensed training provided (AP/LTP) and they would be allowed to charge whatever they want but they have to pay ARC an administrative fee of around $32 per student (increases possible). It is just like the AHA allowing instructors to use their name and charge whatever; however they have to pay their Training Center (TC) an admin fee and for cards.

Here is my biggest challenge. I am a Paramedic. I became an Emergency Trauma Technician (AK equiv. of a First Responder) at 15, VFF at 17, NREMT at 18. I cannot do Paramedic skills in CAP nor do I want to. Doing assessment, calling 911, treating life threats with basic first aid skills, compressions, airway, breathing are the skills that matter. CPR can be taught to cadets with compressions only. There is not a lot of training that needs to be done and we don't really need to be teaching EMR, FR, or EMT level training to our cadets. In this day and age of improved medicine, improved SAR training, number of professional SAR organizations, and EMS (live in AR and worked in AR and OK. In Arkansas we run primarily Paramedic level EMS so if we can do it in one of the most rural states...), the likelihood of CAP packaging and transporting a victim is almost zero. There is no reason for the typical unit to spend the time and money on EMR training. Basic first aid and a solid wilderness self care class is all that the largest majority of our members need.

I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.
Title: Re: Time for flu shots
Post by: RNOfficer on October 14, 2016, 09:20:45 PM
Something else that's new for 2016-2017 is that CDC only recommends people get injectable flu vaccines (flu shots) this season. Live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV) – or the nasal spray vaccine – is not recommended for use during the 2016-2017 season because of concerns about its effectiveness. There are still many different vaccine options this season. Some flu shots protect against three flu viruses and some protect against four flu viruses.

Also new: Higher dosage for older than 65

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm

Egg Free Flu vaccine

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_flublok-vaccine.htm

Flu Vaccine With Adjuvant

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/adjuvant.htm

Everyone 6 months and older should get a flu vaccine every year by the end of October, if possible. However, getting vaccinated later can still be protective since flu viruses can circulate into May during some seasons. For this reason, vaccination should continue throughout the flu season, even in January or later. Some young children might need two doses of vaccine. A health care provider can advise on how many doses a child should get.

There are some people who should not get a flu vaccine. A person who has previously experienced a severe allergic reaction to flu vaccine, regardless of the component suspected of being responsible for the reaction, should not get a flu vaccine again.

http://www.cdc.gov/features/flu/index.html

As always, this post is general health information. See your PCP for information specific to you.

My HMO told me today that there is a nationwide shortage of the higher dosage of flu vaccine designed for those older than 65 (Fluzone High-Dose Seasonal Influenza Vaccine)

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm

and when it becomes available only those 80 and older will be eligible to get it.

If you are over 64 and want to get this shot that is designed for older folks weaker immune system, you might wish to act now while there may still be a limited supply in your area.

The manufacturer, Fluzone, told me that they are now shipping this vaccine so that additional quantities should be available.
Title: National Handwashing Day!
Post by: RNOfficer on October 14, 2016, 11:02:15 PM
http://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/when-how-handwashing.html

Oct 15th is National Handwashing Day. Many communicable disease can be spread through hand contact with a virus or bacteria, followed by touching one's mouth, nose or eyes.

The CDC recommends handwashing much more frequently and more thoroughly than most people do. If soap and water are not available, use an alcohol-based hand rub.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on October 16, 2016, 07:53:19 PM
...There is not a lot of training that needs to be done and we don't really need to be teaching EMR, FR, or EMT level training to our cadets. In this day and age of improved medicine, improved SAR training, number of professional SAR organizations, and EMS (live in AR and worked in AR and OK. In Arkansas we run primarily Paramedic level EMS so if we can do it in one of the most rural states...), the likelihood of CAP packaging and transporting a victim is almost zero. There is no reason for the typical unit to spend the time and money on EMR training. Basic first aid and a solid wilderness self care class is all that the largest majority of our members need.

...

That may depend on local or wing unit mission types.  There are some CAP wings that are active participants in their state for ground SAR.  As in deploy to the field participate in GSAR for missing persons or aircraft, more than once every 10 years.  These elements do have the chance of coming upon an actual victim and would potentially benefit from more than a basic workplace first aid type check box marking course.  Everyone in CAP, no, every GTM member, also not likely, but maybe at a certain level be it the GTM 1 or the GTL lever, maybe.  Just my past experience as a both a CAP member and a Civilian SAR guy.

MK

Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: PHall on October 16, 2016, 08:11:51 PM
...There is not a lot of training that needs to be done and we don't really need to be teaching EMR, FR, or EMT level training to our cadets. In this day and age of improved medicine, improved SAR training, number of professional SAR organizations, and EMS (live in AR and worked in AR and OK. In Arkansas we run primarily Paramedic level EMS so if we can do it in one of the most rural states...), the likelihood of CAP packaging and transporting a victim is almost zero. There is no reason for the typical unit to spend the time and money on EMR training. Basic first aid and a solid wilderness self care class is all that the largest majority of our members need.

...

That may depend on local or wing unit mission types.  There are some CAP wings that are active participants in their state for ground SAR.  As in deploy to the field participate in GSAR for missing persons or aircraft, more than once every 10 years.  These elements do have the chance of coming upon an actual victim and would potentially benefit from more than a basic workplace first aid type check box marking course.  Everyone in CAP, no, every GTM member, also not likely, but maybe at a certain level be it the GTM 1 or the GTL lever, maybe.  Just my past experience as a both a CAP member and a Civilian SAR guy.

MK

We probably need to train on what to do for automobile accidents since most of us are far more likely to encounter a car accident then a bent Cessna.
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: sarmed1 on October 16, 2016, 10:32:19 PM
...There is not a lot of training that needs to be done and we don't really need to be teaching EMR, FR, or EMT level training to our cadets. In this day and age of improved medicine, improved SAR training, number of professional SAR organizations, and EMS (live in AR and worked in AR and OK. In Arkansas we run primarily Paramedic level EMS so if we can do it in one of the most rural states...), the likelihood of CAP packaging and transporting a victim is almost zero. There is no reason for the typical unit to spend the time and money on EMR training. Basic first aid and a solid wilderness self care class is all that the largest majority of our members need.

...

That may depend on local or wing unit mission types.  There are some CAP wings that are active participants in their state for ground SAR.  As in deploy to the field participate in GSAR for missing persons or aircraft, more than once every 10 years.  These elements do have the chance of coming upon an actual victim and would potentially benefit from more than a basic workplace first aid type check box marking course.  Everyone in CAP, no, every GTM member, also not likely, but maybe at a certain level be it the GTM 1 or the GTL lever, maybe.  Just my past experience as a both a CAP member and a Civilian SAR guy.

MK

We probably need to train on what to do for automobile accidents since most of us are far more likely to encounter a car accident then a bent Cessna.

Also more likely to find people who require first aid care in a vehicle crash than a Cessna crash, statistically speaking (frequency of crash and frequency of survival wise)

mk
Title: Re: Basic First Aid
Post by: PHall on October 16, 2016, 11:27:22 PM
...There is not a lot of training that needs to be done and we don't really need to be teaching EMR, FR, or EMT level training to our cadets. In this day and age of improved medicine, improved SAR training, number of professional SAR organizations, and EMS (live in AR and worked in AR and OK. In Arkansas we run primarily Paramedic level EMS so if we can do it in one of the most rural states...), the likelihood of CAP packaging and transporting a victim is almost zero. There is no reason for the typical unit to spend the time and money on EMR training. Basic first aid and a solid wilderness self care class is all that the largest majority of our members need.

...

That may depend on local or wing unit mission types.  There are some CAP wings that are active participants in their state for ground SAR.  As in deploy to the field participate in GSAR for missing persons or aircraft, more than once every 10 years.  These elements do have the chance of coming upon an actual victim and would potentially benefit from more than a basic workplace first aid type check box marking course.  Everyone in CAP, no, every GTM member, also not likely, but maybe at a certain level be it the GTM 1 or the GTL lever, maybe.  Just my past experience as a both a CAP member and a Civilian SAR guy.

MK

We probably need to train on what to do for automobile accidents since most of us are far more likely to encounter a car accident then a bent Cessna.

Also more likely to find people who require first aid care in a vehicle crash than a Cessna crash, statistically speaking (frequency of crash and frequency of survival wise)

mk

So there you are. An area to focus our training on.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Eclipse on October 16, 2016, 11:29:34 PM
And for those cases, the "community-level" FA classes mandated for GT3 are wholly appropriate.
Title: Chiropractors and the neck.
Post by: RNOfficer on October 21, 2016, 12:22:26 AM
Chiropractors and the neck.

There's general agreement the Chiropractic can be helpful in lower back pain but there have long been warnings about chiropractic manipulation of the neck.

Recent tragedy

Model Katie May died after chiropractic visit, father says

http://abc7ny.com/news/model-katie-may-died-after-chiropractic-visit-father-says/1564689/

How safe are the vigorous neck manipulations done by chiropractors?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/how-safe-are-the-vigorous-neck-manipulations-done-by-chiropractors/2014/01/06/26870726-5cf7-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html

Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

Neck Manipulation: Risk vs. Benefit « Science-Based Medicine

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/neck-manipulation-risk-vs-benefit/

Chiropractor Breaks Baby’s Neck – A Risk vs Benefit Analysis

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractor-breaks-babys-neck-a-risk-vs-benefit-analysis/
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: AirAux on October 21, 2016, 04:37:57 PM
Well, well, did you really need to go there?  Care to share the fact that many, many more deaths are caused through nursing mistakes, accidents, neglect, and actual murder?  The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe.  Shall we begin, or?  Don't want none, don't start none.
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: CAPDCCMOM on October 21, 2016, 04:51:23 PM
I will weigh in on this one. One RN dies every day from a drug overdose. What are the numbers of nurses that are on probationary license due to substance abuse? The numbers would frighten you. In the ER you can very well be treated by a physician that is on hour 30 of a 36 hour shift, very sleep deprived, and possibly not able to make the best decisions.

And medical professionals have some of the highest rates of suicide.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 21, 2016, 06:42:31 PM
I saw here a jump that I am not sure how it connects to us.

So I will make another jump.

Since NHQ has already stated we cannot treat any victims we find nor we are to be seen as a health care organization, anyone we find in an accident we are to leave him or her to the professionals.

If one of us gets sick, we cannot treat ourselves, either.

But wait!

Physicians are tired, they will make mistakes.

Nurses make medical mistakes.

So our survivors we are taking to... Death Row!

And us... to NOWHERE!

...if we want to survive...

...what to do, where to go...? WHERE DO WE GO?

 >:D
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck.
Post by: RNOfficer on October 21, 2016, 10:14:39 PM
Well, well, did you really need to go there?  Care to share the fact that many, many more deaths are caused through nursing mistakes, accidents, neglect, and actual murder?  The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe.  Shall we begin, or?  Don't want none, don't start none.

As I pointed out there is an area where chiropractic has a recognized role in medicine, the treatment of lower back pain. Unfortunately some irresponsible  chiropractors use. manipulation in the treatment of neck pain despite the fact that it has been shown in many studies that this treatment is both ineffective and unsafe.

You claim that "The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe.
" Please provide a source for this incredible claim.

To my knowledge the AMA does not "endorse" particular treatments. Actually what the AMA did was permit individual physicians to refer patients for chiropractic treatment and allowed physicians to "associate" (form a practice with) chiropractics. As noted there have been several articles in JAMA that state chiropractic has been shown to be useful in the treatment of lower back pain". The AMA  has never, to my knowledge, stated that chiropractics is "safe".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349822/?page=1

Of course, I don't claim to know everything and if you have evidence that "The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe", please supply it.

There is abundant evidence that chiropractic manipulation of the neck is dangerous. Note that it was a coroner that expressly found that model Katie May's death was caused by chiropractic manipulation.

I sincerely hope that my original post will preserve at least one CAP member from death or serious harm..
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: abdsp51 on October 21, 2016, 10:34:51 PM
If you don't like the responses then don't post.  Honestly this goes to show half of what you post are things that need to be discussed between a PCM and patient.  Plus you dodged the statements and questions about other medical proffesionals...
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on October 22, 2016, 03:24:40 AM
OK, folks, this is the last warning. We are not in a fourth grade playground.

I agree two-thirds with abdsp51's last post. The first two-thirds. The final sentence was a little overboard.

The rules:

1. Information only. No opinions, no politics. Polite discussion is encouraged. Let's try to have some specific relevance to CAP.
2. If you don't like it, drive on. Snarky comments are unnecessary.
3. If you think it's incorrect, report it, and drive on. Leave the flaming in the flame locker. The mods will sort it out. If you disagree, explain why, and present facts. See #1.

New one - 4: Change the post title to reflect the post you are responding to. Either quote the post, and delete unneeded text, or directly edit the title. I've been doing this, but it's time for y'all to be handling this. It's not hard.

I think there's value in this post, as long as we play nicely. The next time it gets out of hand, it gets clicked.

Got it? Good. Chive on.
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: AirAux on October 22, 2016, 03:44:37 AM
“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993
Title: Re: Chiropractors and the neck.
Post by: Live2Learn on October 22, 2016, 05:07:20 AM
Chiropractors and the neck.


RN:

Please consider the "sources" you cite!  None of the "sources" report research, none are peer reviewed studies.  Each of your internet sources are hearsay, cherry picked, and of little or no value in 'proving' anything.  I am disappointed in your foray into innuendo and accusation that is better left to media outlets that specialize is such fare. 
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: grunt82abn on October 22, 2016, 11:02:53 AM
“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993

Very nice citation and great post!!!
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: RNOfficer on October 22, 2016, 10:26:28 PM
“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993

Thanks for your interest in this. Usually I do not cite academic journals because most users do not have access to them nor would not benefit much from reading them. I have access to a major university's library and the library of our osteopathic college. In the future it would be courteous to provide links to the sources you quote.

 As for the sources you cite

“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke" 

This was a "study" conducted by chiropractors at a chiropractic college and published in a chiropractic journal. The biases are obvious and chiropractors are not trained in research. This thirty-five year old article is not available online nor even at our local osteopathic college so it's hard to believe you actually read this article. If you have the article please send me a copy.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low."

No one has claimed that the risk of serious side effect is other than low. Of course that does not matter to Katie May.

Also BTW, these two articles you quote were not done in the USA. Chiropractic is very different in other countries  - - in fact it varies very considerably with the US. Even if if these studies were unbiased and well-conducted, there's no reason to believe that foreign chiropractic is the same an that practiced in the USA.

Your other references are irrelevant. This thread is about chiropractic neck manipulation not lower-back. And in the op I stated that chiropractic was found to be helpful in lower back pain.

I'm looking forward to you sending me a copy of the relevant article about this 35 year old study from Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19 so it can be evaluated as a whole and not a single cut-n-paste sentence. Thanks
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: AirAux on October 23, 2016, 02:55:22 AM
Nurses kill patients:

Charles Cullen, Suspected to have killed up to 300 patients during his 16-year stint as a nurse, Charles Cullen may be the most prolific killer in America. Cullen injected his patients with lethal amounts of digoxin, which helped his crimes go undetected. He claimed that he only killed them out of mercy. Despite being helpful in the investigation, Cullen was sentenced to 11 consecutive life sentences with no chance for parole. I could go on and on.  Chiropractic is safe and effective.  Chiropractors work in military hospitals, returning patients to duty quickly and without the downsides of pain medication.  I have seen children that were told they would never walk again by medical doctors returned to a normal life under chiropractic care.  I have seen patients unable to work due to migraines that could not be helped by medical doctors return to work after chiropractic care.  You took an isolated incident and tried to present it as a common occurrence.  Shame on you.  Malpractice insurance for chiropractors is the lowest of any medical practitioner.  That would not be true if your story had any truth in it.  You are way out of line in this matter.
Title: Re:Chiropractors and the neck
Post by: AirAux on October 23, 2016, 03:00:54 AM
Department of Defense (DOD)

In recent years, in recognition of the value and benefits of chiropractic care, Congress has passed, and the President has signed into law, legislation establishing a permanent chiropractic care benefit for both active duty military personnel and veterans. Furthermore, a doctor of chiropractic is now stationed in the U.S. Capitol to provide necessary care to members of Congress

To date, there is a doctor of chiropractic at 60 military bases around the country; however, according to a 2005 Government Accountability Office report, only 54 percent of servicemen and women eligible for chiropractic care can reasonably access the benefit. It is still necessary more is done to increase chiropractic access and availability.
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: PA Guy on October 23, 2016, 07:02:12 PM
We get it already!

RN doesn't approve of chiropractic manipulation of the neck.
Aux is an enthusiastic supporter of chiropractic care.

Now why don't the two of you take this to PM if you want to continue this conversation?
Title: Re: Health information
Post by: SarDragon on October 23, 2016, 08:22:11 PM
Well, sports fans, it's been six weeks, and 130 posts. IMHO, 69 of the posts provided some sort of usable information, and the remainder were commentary about the 69.

The most useful set of posts seems to be the ones about first aid. The rest were mostly contentious. There was questionable specific relevance to CAP, and the overall popularity of the thread seemed low.

It's pretty obvious that many of you don't want to play nice, or follow directions, so we're done, both with this thread, and the "health information" posts in general.

(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/lock.gif)