CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: slimshady on May 22, 2015, 05:22:05 PM

Title: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: slimshady on May 22, 2015, 05:22:05 PM
Hello everyone i was not sure where to post this question but here seems like a good choice, i have been a member of civil air patrol since high school and have seen a few different types of id cards, they seem to be getting cheaper and less believable as a respectable id for civil air patrol then i came across a story from 2011,  when they were debating what the new card should be and the first proposed one looked like a standard DOD CAC Card and it got me to thinking why don't they just issue at least senior members only the CAC Card since were supposedly part of the Air Force family and we go through FBI background checks and they hand them out to civilian contractors and other civilians but not the Auxiliary of Air Force ? also we should have commissary privileges since we volunteer our service we don't even get paid like the regular military or civilian employees and in world war 2 they trusted us to bomb German submarines but now don't trust us to go on our own bases. can anyone help with explaining the contradictions please.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: CapTalk on May 22, 2015, 06:41:36 PM
Wait. Are you referring to common access card cards?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 22, 2015, 07:06:52 PM
That is what he asks.

Common Access Card card. He typed CAC card.

Not more than one week ago there was a very spirited debate here. Is this person a troll, resurrecting a thread?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 22, 2015, 08:44:06 PM
OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: SarDragon on May 22, 2015, 10:00:13 PM
DeCA (Defense Commissary Agency) is an appropriated funds activity, and your chances, as just a CAP member, of getting commissary privileges, are miniscule, at best. Exchange privileges (non-appropriated funds activity) are more easily attainable, but don't hold your breath on that either.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 22, 2015, 10:13:09 PM
I thought we are were ignoring these guys.

Okay....Seriously.

If you think CAP members ought to have expanded AAFES and Commissary (and hell why not MWR, billeting, and AMC Space A) access.

It is simple.

Contact your local congress critter.   Tell them you think it should happen and let them change the law.

Access to these facilities are not up to the CAP nor even to the USAF.

As far as do we deserve this access.....I'm not going to even bother with that argument as it is a lose-lose no matter what side you pick.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: ranger0305 on May 22, 2015, 10:21:27 PM
Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: PA Guy on May 22, 2015, 10:48:10 PM
Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

"Someone" told you wrong. Read the regs and quit depending on "someone" for the correct information. The fact you got away with it doesn't mean it was within regulations or the right thing to do. Read CAPR 147-1 and learn.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: PHall on May 23, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

Of course they smiled at you, you were giving them money. AAFES and DeCA are not shy when it comes to taking your money!
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 23, 2015, 01:36:59 AM
Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

CAP can shop at clothing sales only in the bx.  Now AAFES has expanded use of its food court to anyone.  The commissary is open to official DOD ID card holders only.  And depending on the location this may mean contractors as well.  Stateside most contractors and AF civilians do not have access to these facilities. 

The establishments violating their own policies is nothing new.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: THRAWN on May 23, 2015, 02:55:09 AM
I retract my objections to requiring a degree to become a CAP officer.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 23, 2015, 03:46:02 AM
After careful reading of nims credentialing guidelines, the most likely scenario is that we get PIV-I cards someday. But for NGOs it isn't required, so that means a grant or an act of congress.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 23, 2015, 09:28:19 AM
Here's a little gift for you, cdbz20.  I had these in a shoebox, looks like you can put them to use.

,,,,,,, ...... ------ ;;;;;;; ? ? ? ? ? ((((((( )))))))
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: SarDragon on May 23, 2015, 09:54:53 AM
Here's a little gift for you, cdbz20.  I had these in a shoebox, looks like you can put them to use.

,,,,,,, ...... ------ ;;;;;;; ? ? ? ? ? ((((((( )))))))

I think you lost him at the first comma.  >:D
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: AlphaSigOU on May 23, 2015, 01:47:48 PM
What might happen in the future (I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, and I don't have my ear to the wall to glean juicy gossip and speculation from the PTB) :

We'll probably get DBIDS ID cards to get on base; though right now DBIDS cards are issued by the base and only access that installation. The base commander is still the ultimate authority as to who can or cannot get beyond the guard shack, based on the data obtained by the background check. When that will happen? Don't hold your breath.

To clarify and correct what ranger0305 mentioned in his post:

As a DoD contractor with a stateside CAC you can:

Purchase sundries at the Exchange's Express (or whatever the Squiddies/Gyrenes call their equivalent) except for liquor and tobacco
Purchase gasoline
Become a member of the MWR activities (club, craft shop, etc.)

You cannot purchase at the Exchange, commissary or military clothing sales (the exception being CAP authorized use and purchase at the MCSS only). Neither can you access the online exchange store.

CAP members have exchange privileges only when occupying government lodging facilities and then only with a valid military support authorization letter issued by the AF liaison region.

Overseas CACs allow unlimited exchange and commissary use, as well as use of overseas MWR facilities (Dragon Hill Lodge in Korea, for example). When I had an overseas CAC (while stationed at Kwajalein) I had no problem accessing the exchange and commissary while on my stateside leave.

Most exchange and commissary cashiers are not going to be familiar with MSAs, and might give you (wrongly) a pass if you are wearing a military-style (AF style) uniform; remember that the exchange and commissary is a privilege and not a right.


Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Storm Chaser on May 23, 2015, 04:12:02 PM
Quote
...why don't they just issue at least senior members only the CAC Card since were supposedly part of the Air Force family and we go through FBI background checks and they hand them out to civilian contractors and other civilians but not the Auxiliary of Air Force ?

While issuing a Common Access Card (CAC) to CAP members is certainly possible, the process is not as simple as some may think. First, there's a cost associated with the card; much higher than our current CAP ID cards. Second, while CAP members pay their dues each year, many are not necessarily active. Once you get that initial FBI background check, CAP has no process in place for vetting its members. Contractors, on the other hand, are vetted not only by their employers, but by an Air Force official. And that process is not a one time thing. They're also required to take training that CAP members currently are not. When a contractor is no longer working for that company or on that contract, there's a process in place to retrieve the CAC. CAP members come and go and there's no effective way to retrieve a CAC from a member who is now inactive since we don't even have a standard for what inactive means. The list of challenges goes on.

Quote
also we should have commissary privileges since we volunteer our service we don't even get paid like the regular military or civilian employees and in world war 2 they trusted us to bomb German submarines but now don't trust us to go on our own bases. can anyone help with explaining the contradictions please.

First of all, the commissary and exchange services are benefits for service members and certain DoD employees, which we are not. Not even contractors have access to all the facilities that service members and DoD employees do. Second, what CAP did 75 years ago has no relevance with what our members do today. Last I checked, none of us have dropped bombs on anything as part of CAP. We are volunteers. The reward we get is that of serving our communities, states and nation. Anyone needing more than that can join one of the uniformed services or many public safety agencies.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 24, 2015, 05:37:24 AM
All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

At LAX, I issued over 200,000 during a 5-6 year period (including a complete issue, followed by a 100% reissue following 9-11, plus accounting for turnover. Our "unrecovered terminated" percentGe was ridiculously low, maintained by simple audits).

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 24, 2015, 08:20:46 AM
All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

At LAX, I issued over 200,000 during a 5-6 year period (including a complete issue, followed by a 100% reissue following 9-11, plus accounting for turnover. Our "unrecovered terminated" percentGe was ridiculously low, maintained by simple audits).

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.

Who is going to foot the bill for the additional workload and cost for supplies?  It's already a PIA process for AD Mil, Retirees and their dependents to get cards initially issued and reissued.  Are you telling me that all CAP members have the REQUIRED DOCUMENTS for an initial issue of these cards? 

How are we going to determine priority at the issuing offices for these, first come first serve?  There is so much more to this than just saying "Do it" and it's done.  You'll have to work out the issues getting through the gate.

In the event this does happen what do you propose happens to those who are caught misusing the card, or dabbling in shenanigans on the yard?  Are you willing to undergo a more thorough background check to get access to that little piece of plastic? What about the rest of the membership? 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: CAPs1 on May 24, 2015, 09:56:52 AM
Exchange privileges are 'limited' for CAP members - page 24 Tables 7-1/7-2 - see link below, as already outlined by some.

CAP mission is not hindered by its members not having access to retail facilities on bases/posts. Unless that changes things will stay as is, as they should.
Online purchases for folks that have served and have honorable discharge are being considered and even that has met strong resistance.

Concur with Storm, Lordmonar and others.


http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf)
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Storm Chaser on May 24, 2015, 01:44:05 PM
All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

Who said it couldn't be done. I said it wasn't a simple process as some may think and it's not. It also cost money; lots of it. With reduced budgets and funding in recent years, the question could easily be one of CACs vs. encampment financial assistance or cadet uniform vouchers or new airplanes or vehicles. The cost associated with the CAC is not just that of the card itself. It includes the process and infrastructure that needs to be put in place. Before the the Air Force (or DoD) would even consider issuing us CAC, the funds would have to be identified.

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.

I have another question. Do CAP members really need CACs? Not every DoD contractor is issued a CAC; only those who require constant access to military facilities or networks. CAP members require no access to Air Force networks and only some CAP units are located in military bases or close to one. Units who are in military bases can prevent access issues by getting on an approved Entry Access List (EAL).

An improved CAP ID is not a bad idea, but I doubt in needs to be a CAC. Military retirees and dependents are not issued CACs. Why should we? If cost is addressed, I would favored a DoD type ID. But that would require every CAP member to go to a military base to get their ID issued. DoD doesn't just mail these out like CAP does with our CAP ID cards. You see, the process is not that simple, as I stated before.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Nolan Teel on May 24, 2015, 03:09:16 PM
This is all fun and games till someone goes on base and does something stupid to ruin it for all... examples below...

1. Speeding on Base
2. Chewing an enlisted person out for not saluting
3. Parking in the wrong spot
4. being generally stupid with how we act/wear the uniform
5. Trying to get access to MWR/AAFES/Commissary

With that said I just had a meeting last week with our local AFB Wing CC.  He supports limited DBIDS Cards for will call them "trusted CAP Members" and an Entry Access Letter for all others.

Here is a simply flow chart on base access IMO based on historical experience.

We work hard to build relationship----> Get easier access---->someone does something stupid----> that person quits CAP----> access restricted----> work to build relationship.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mustang on May 25, 2015, 07:10:00 AM
DBIDS cards for CAP are coming, according to a little birdy.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 25, 2015, 07:50:18 AM
DBIDS cards for CAP are coming, according to a little birdy.

Care to enlighten us?  Plus who's footing the bill for the supplies and the man hours to issue them?  And whom exactly in the org are going to be getting them?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: NCRblues on May 25, 2015, 02:28:55 PM
DBIDS cards for CAP are coming, according to a little birdy.

Care to enlighten us?  Plus who's footing the bill for the supplies and the man hours to issue them?  And whom exactly in the org are going to be getting them?

This is a recipe for an absolute disaster!

Can you imagine the petty infighting that will come with only certain members getting those?! Holy cow...

And lets be honest with ourselves, we all know that one guy who is in CAP for all the wrong reasons and should never even look at a military base let alone maybe have access to it.

I doubt this is going to happen, but if it does be prepared for the infighting of a lifetime.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: PHall on May 25, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
What infighting?  If you have a need to access a base on a fairly regular basis, then yeah a DBIDS card might be in order.
But if you're only going to the base 2 or 3 times a year for uniforms, then you don't need one.
And the vast majority of CAP members fall into the second category.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: arajca on May 25, 2015, 03:02:49 PM
What infighting?  If you have a need to access a base on a fairly regular basis, then yeah a DBIDS card might be in order.
But if you're only going to the base 2 or 3 times a year for uniforms, then you don't need one.
And the vast majority of CAP members fall into the second category.
As one who falls into the first category, I have two DBIDS cards - one for one base and one that works for two (but will need separate cards next month) I need to access regularly.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 25, 2015, 03:09:24 PM
What infighting?  If you have a need to access a base on a fairly regular basis, then yeah a DBIDS card might be in order.
But if you're only going to the base 2 or 3 times a year for uniforms, then you don't need one.
And the vast majority of CAP members fall into the second category.

Exactly but who is the deciding factor on this?  The unit, group or wing?  And how do you think it will fly when the AF Wing CC says enough off my yard? How you propose getting these cards back when a member quits for changes their membership status to patron?

Will this be for SMs and cadets or just SMs? What about some members who decide they don't want to disclose the information for the background check?  Or how about when they are denied access because of the background check?  How about being able to sponsor visitors as well some installations don't allow it via DBIDS and others do.

Ultimately this is also going to cost money and man hours who's going to pay for it?  Not to mention should this happen will potentially create another means of displeasure for members who won't get a card or are refused issuance of a card.

Granted a lot of this is probably being thought about and worked out but you this all big picture things with getting DBIDs cards.   
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: PHall on May 25, 2015, 06:10:08 PM
What infighting?  If you have a need to access a base on a fairly regular basis, then yeah a DBIDS card might be in order.
But if you're only going to the base 2 or 3 times a year for uniforms, then you don't need one.
And the vast majority of CAP members fall into the second category.

Exactly but who is the deciding factor on this?  The unit, group or wing?  And how do you think it will fly when the AF Wing CC says enough off my yard? How you propose getting these cards back when a member quits for changes their membership status to patron?

Will this be for SMs and cadets or just SMs? What about some members who decide they don't want to disclose the information for the background check?  Or how about when they are denied access because of the background check?  How about being able to sponsor visitors as well some installations don't allow it via DBIDS and others do.

Ultimately this is also going to cost money and man hours who's going to pay for it?  Not to mention should this happen will potentially create another means of displeasure for members who won't get a card or are refused issuance of a card.

Granted a lot of this is probably being thought about and worked out but you this all big picture things with getting DBIDs cards.

As long as we make a "good faith effort" to recover the cards we should be alright. If for nothing else they can be cancelled which means they will be taken if someone tries to use them.

As for what is the deciding factor. Don't you guys have a limit on how many times someone can get on base in a 90 day period without a DBID card?
Sounds like a deciding factor to me
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 25, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
Quote
From ABD:

....What about some members who decide they don't want to disclose the information for the background check?


Simple... No info, ya don't get one!
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 26, 2015, 02:20:44 AM
Silly question of the day: Can the card readers at a military installation read data from a PIV or PIV-I card?

Personally, on the subject of CAC, I always thought that a CAC had data encoded in it that stated the holder's access levels and assumed that the items allowed to CAP could then be presented to anyone with a CAC reader.

If this can be done, and it can also read PIV an PIV-I cards, then we can skip the entire CAC debate and start issuing a PIV or PIV-I compliant smartcard to anyone who requests it and pays an additional fee? It would among other things give us the ability to do certificate based logon to eservices and CAP computers, which considering we now have cyber as a theoretically growing mission, this would not be a bad idea.

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Panache on May 26, 2015, 07:39:39 AM
Why does CAP members need CAC cards?

I will be the first to admit that our current ID cards look a little cheesy.  But... so what?  My CAP ID card is in my wallet 99.99% of the time.  The only time I take it out is when I'm going to the meeting and to show to the guard at the gate, who gives it a half-glance as we are, obviously, authorized by the base commander to enter.

If we have a need or reason to enter another military facility, we call ahead and ask (a) can we gain entry and (b) what forms of ID do we need to provide.  If (a) is "yes", (b) has always been "oh, a driver's license and your CAP ID card is fine."

The base commander is, for all intents and purposes, god when it comes to deciding what we can and can not due on his or her base.  If he or she says "CAP can do x", then the standard-issue flimsy CAP ID card should be good enough for establishing our identity.

DBIDS cards for CAP are coming, according to a little birdy.

I'll believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Angus on May 26, 2015, 12:56:44 PM
Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

Of course they smiled at you, you were giving them money. AAFES and DeCA are not shy when it comes to taking your money!

Not always true.  I have been on base for meetings and tried to purchase just some basic items and was told that I couldn't because CAP was not authorized for purchases from the main part of AAFES.  I do believe though that some AAFES branches are much more lax because yes you are giving them business.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on May 26, 2015, 01:06:47 PM
Noticed something over the last week or so.  Upon entering the local Air National Guard Facility for gas, for the first time the security guys had a scanner and read the bar code on the back of my ID Card.  (Using a Military Retired ID Card, not a CAP membership card).
This weekend using both the commissary and the PX, again my and my wife's ID cards were scanned before we were cleared onto the base, and were scanned again in both the PX and the Commissary before any purchases were rung up.  Seems there are more and more card scanner/readers and they are being used more.  As I no longer carry a CAP Membership Card I really do not have a dog in the fight but as a military retiree I can see the fences being pulled in a bit tighter.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 03:23:38 AM
Wouldn't have anything to do with the FPCON change, would it?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 03:27:27 AM
I think there is some confusion here between a CAC and DBIDS.

Technically speaking, the CAC itself has nothing to do with "base access".

I think the right answer, which has been mentioned before, is DBIDS on the CAP ID (if base access is necessary).

What about a limited number of access opportunities?  Your DBIDS ID is "preloaded" with 3 visits on a calendar year, so you can access for AAFES or whatnot at those times. Any other time it would be the same process as now.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 03:27:51 AM
Wouldn't have anything to do with the FPCON change, would it?

No.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 03:36:49 AM

Wouldn't have anything to do with the FPCON change, would it?

No.

Oh, ok
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 03:41:23 AM
I think there is some confusion here between a CAC and DBIDS.

Technically speaking, the CAC itself has nothing to do with "base access".

I think the right answer, which has been mentioned before, is DBIDS on the CAP ID (if base access is necessary).

What about a limited number of access opportunities?  Your DBIDS ID is "preloaded" with 3 visits on a calendar year, so you can access for AAFES or whatnot at those times. Any other time it would be the same process as now.

Not that simple and who's going to fund the manhours and cost to implement such a thing.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 03:44:14 AM
CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 03:49:31 AM
CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.

your talking about a barcode for a system we do not control.  This is not a simple proceds by any means.  You can add anything you want all day and the DoD is not going toballow CAP to put DBIDS on its ID cards. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 03:50:38 AM
Noted
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: SarDragon on May 27, 2015, 03:53:02 AM
CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.

OK, add a bar code. Now what? What's going to read it? What data will it contain? What is the data going to be matched to? Where is the matching data going to reside? And, my favorite question of all time - Who's going to pay for all this?

OK, five real Qs. Got real answers for all of them?

And, finally, what's the plan to put all this together?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 03:57:03 AM
CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.

OK, add a bar code. Now what? What's going to read it? What data will it contain? What is the data going to be matched to? Where is the matching data going to reside? And, my favorite question of all time - Who's going to pay for all this?

OK, five real Qs. Got real answers for all of them?

And, finally, what's the plan to put all this together?

Winner winner, chicken dinner.....

Plus DBIDS contains major PII as well so no way is it going to be accessed by us for our own coding.
Title: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 04:00:31 AM
I'm obviously not a DBIDS pro, but in my limited experience I'm aware that they can read barcodes.

1) add barcodes to ID (not too tech savvy, but I'm assuming this wouldn't be too difficult)
2) if base access is required, register on base with DBIDS scanner. Member info would be loaded into the system.
3-4) see 2
5) not sure how much it would cost, so no idea?

You guys are real quick to start an argument.  If we are playing the "what if" game, that's how I would see it happen.

Once again, not an expert.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: SarDragon on May 27, 2015, 04:07:44 AM
I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 04:14:05 AM
I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: coudano on May 27, 2015, 04:30:49 AM
OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.

It's not as hard as all that...
you could become an employee, vendor, or contractor on base,
which would get you access, sometimes a CAC, and in some cases even access to shop.


The commissaries i've been in lately, require you to scan your 'privilege card' which is your CAC in some cases, but a military dependent id works too, as well as some other options.  I'm not really sure if different cards are allowed to buy different things, but that technology certainly exists, if you look at wic and foodstamp programs...  Given the financial situation of DECA and AAFES, I would think they would be open to any and every revenue source they could get their hands on (including giving CAP members access to shop at their online outlets).



Now, I mean...

How far is the gulf between the private contractor masseus that sells massage therapy at the base wellness center two days a week, and members of a CAP squadron that meet in a base facility (which they mostly permanently occupy) one night a week, in addition to special activities?

Sure, one is providing services for pay, to military members and their families.
And the other is...   well, sort of doing the same thing, in a very round about way...

I duno, it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to me.




//Also apart from our current id cards being a little flimsier than they used to be, whatever.  When I joined, we had the blue and white ones that were REALLY flimsy.  That was -NOT- more professional.  That's not a comment on the profesionality or not of our current card...


//Also, CAC does short to common access card, but in the bigger picture and the longer run, CAC should be thought of more as common access credential.    Doesn't have to be a card, and eventually, it probably won't be.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 04:34:09 AM
I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 27, 2015, 04:36:21 AM
I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

It's easier than it seems. It's cheaper than it seems. If USAF wanted it, it would happen. It hasn't happened, so...
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 04:37:30 AM
OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.

It's not as hard as all that...
you could become an employee, vendor, or contractor on base,
which would get you access, sometimes a CAC, and in some cases even access to shop.


The commissaries i've been in lately, require you to scan your 'privilege card' which is your CAC in some cases, but a military dependent id works too, as well as some other options.  I'm not really sure if different cards are allowed to buy different things, but that technology certainly exists, if you look at wic and foodstamp programs...  Given the financial situation of DECA and AAFES, I would think they would be open to any and every revenue source they could get their hands on (including giving CAP members access to shop at their online outlets).



Now, I mean...

How far is the gulf between the private contractor masseus that sells massage therapy at the base wellness center two days a week, and members of a CAP squadron that meet in a base facility (which they mostly permanently occupy) one night a week, in addition to special activities?

Sure, one is providing services for pay, to military members and their families.
And the other is...   well, sort of doing the same thing, in a very round about way...

I duno, it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to me.




//Also apart from our current id cards being a little flimsier than they used to be, whatever.  When I joined, we had the blue and white ones that were REALLY flimsy.  That was -NOT- more professional.  That's not a comment on the profesionality or not of our current card...


//Also, CAC does short to common access card, but in the bigger picture and the longer run, CAC should be thought of more as common access credential.    Doesn't have to be a card, and eventually, it probably won't be.

There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen? 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 04:39:32 AM
I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

It's easier than it seems. It's cheaper than it seems. If USAF wanted it, it would happen. It hasn't happened, so...

Sir its not that simple.  and since we are talking at the min AF wide not that cheap.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: coudano on May 27, 2015, 05:13:22 AM
There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen?

So you're saying the masseus can't buy a bottle of tea from the cooler at the shopette on her way to work?  Or for that matter the person who works behind the counter at the shopette?

--i'm not clear on whether the official rules allow them to do that or not,  but common sense (as well as personal first hand eye witness expereince) tells me it happens all the time and isn't a big deal.

Senior members have already had a background check.
Just sayin.




So it's fifth tuesday fun nite at the local base composite squadron.
Can anybody there (even a nonmember parent) pick up the phone and order pizzas for the whole squadron, delivery from the on-base Marco's Pizza and delivery, delivered to the squadron's meeting facility?  And paid with a personal credit card?

I think common sense says yes.

And once you realize that, where do you draw the line, and why?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 05:28:55 AM
There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen?

So you're saying the masseus can't buy a bottle of tea from the cooler at the shopette on her way to work?  Or for that matter the person who works behind the counter at the shopette?

--i'm not clear on whether the official rules allow them to do that or not,  but common sense (as well as personal first hand eye witness expereince) tells me it happens all the time and isn't a big deal.

Senior members have already had a background check.
Just sayin.




So it's fifth tuesday fun nite at the local base composite squadron.
Can anybody there (even a nonmember parent) pick up the phone and order pizzas for the whole squadron, delivery from the on-base Marco's Pizza and delivery, delivered to the squadron's meeting facility?  And paid with a personal credit card?

I think common sense says yes.

And once you realize that, where do you draw the line, and why?

The background check for that card is much more detailed than what we do. 

And yes by the AFI she should not be buying anything at the Shoppette the AAFES employee has limited purchasing ability with AAFES.

And yes again by AFI non DOD ID card holders are to use facilities without a DOD card holder present.. Which means non member and card holder mommy shouldn't be calling the local on base pizza place for anything. 

Does it happen yes it does.  Is action ever taken likely not. 

Different cards grant different privileges.  And a contractors card does not grant them anyhing extra besides base acces, area access and nipr access without it beig in the contract. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: SarDragon on May 27, 2015, 06:04:12 AM
On-base outlets like Mickey D's, Panda Express, and even Joe's Pizza, are contracted to operate on base, and have no limits on who may buy there. The same has been the case for exchange cafeterias. Shopette rules vary, but many are allowed to sell to folks w/o DOD cards, as long as they aren't buying cigarettes or alcohol.

Exchange employees are permitted to shop there, again minus the cigs and alcohol, and possibly some high-ticket items.

Also, I'm going to reiterate that DeCA and Exchanges operate under two different systems. Exchanges have much more liberal rules. As an appropriated fund agency, commissaries are much more limited on who they may sell to.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 27, 2015, 08:36:09 AM
Ok so rough math for this discussion for just cards alone and not the equipment to print them and input them its 24k (rounded up).  That is just for senior members alone and not including cadets who are 18+.

Labor costs for the year if it was AF SF type SrA is about 8k if that is solely what they are doing daily. This doesn't factor in if there is a civilian who does the badges.  So with that you are looking at a pretty good chunk of change for the org to have DBIDS cards issued to every SM in the US at a local AF installation.  Now if you multiply that by the number of installations and factor in the costs for the background checks as well (Sorry Ma blue is not going to accept but "we had one done by the FBI upon becoming members") the costs go up. 



Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 01:58:34 PM


You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

Ok
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 27, 2015, 07:18:33 PM
I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.
Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.

From the point where an employer provides the required information to the USAF and then that is process usually takes about two weeks (faster for individuals with special needs).

The back ground checks are pretty cursory....looking for any major flags on the major HLS, FBI or Police databases....and they don't cost anything.....at least they don't charge contractors to pay for DBIBs cards or CAC cards.....it is part of the price the USAF sucks up as part doing buisness.

And this I know because A....I'm a contractor and have to deal with this stuff.  B....on of my CAP members own a company where he has a contract with the base and has to do this with his employees all the time.  C....we have been working with the base security manager to try to fit the CAP shaped Peg into a Contractor Shaped Whole in the security regulations.....with little success so far.   We have been using big hammers to for it in.....with a some success  (we are still meeting on base an still getting everyone on every week).

So.....as I said before.   

It seems we are making some head way on this issue.  Incremental....but head way.  I expect once we fall under ACC we will jump forward with a permanant solution.   

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: arajca on May 27, 2015, 09:06:49 PM
I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.
Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.
Except that each base requires its own DBIDS card, which is why I have two, soon to be three.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 27, 2015, 09:36:35 PM
I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.
Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.
Except that each base requires its own DBIDS card, which is why I have two, soon to be three.
That is because you may be servicing three different contracts on three different bases.   It is possible to issue the cards granting access to multiple bases.  That they don't do that is a limitation of policy not a limitation of the system.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 27, 2015, 11:13:51 PM
^ exactly
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Slim on May 28, 2015, 09:06:37 AM
I had a discussion on this topic about two years ago with a friend of mine (former CAP member and) currently an SF NCO at the largest Air Guard base in the state.  This base is home to units from all branches, as well as a large DHS presence.  And by DHS, I don't mean the Coast Guard, though the base is home to a CG air station and CG Aux unit.  No, the Detroit Sector headquarters for US Border Patrol, CBP air wing, a DMAT team, and a DHS joint command center are also located on base.  Some sworn agents, but a lot of non sworn civilian employees also work in those areas.  When DBIDS was rolled out, it created a problem with all of the non military DHS people, until someone noticed that the DHS agency credentials all had bar codes on them.  The solution was to scan the codes, add DBIDS information to them, and send them along.  So, when a DHS employee comes to the gate, they present their agency card, and the contract security guard scans it. 

Sounds to me like the extent of the background check is a federal (NCIC) and state/local (we call it LEIN here) criminal history/warrant/driving record check.  One person at a computer terminal can crank those out in less than 5 minutes per person.

All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Panache on May 28, 2015, 02:28:48 PM
All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.

What's going to happen when that member (the retiree) leaves CAP?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on May 28, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 05:03:51 PM

Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

I don't know how easy it would be for CAP-USAF to sponsor DBIDS Cards for all CAP members. I know that for contractors, the DoD sponsor has to sign the form before someone can request a CAC. While certainly doable, I think the logistics and cost associated with this process are not as simple as you may think.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 05:23:34 PM

Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

I don't know how easy it would be for CAP-USAF to sponsor DBIDS Cards for all CAP members. I know that for contractors, the DoD sponsor has to sign the form before someone can request a CAC. While certainly doable, I think the logistics and cost associated with this process are not as simple as you may think.
NHQ downloads the required data in a format that can be uploaded into the DBIDS database walks it over to Maxwell's Pass and ID Office/and or sends it to DOD DIBDS office at the Pentagon.    CAP reissue CAPIDs that are compatible with the DBIDS.    If we it over a year and/or allowed people to order and pay for new DBIDS compatible CAPIDs....cost to both CAP and USAF would be negligible.   Those who wanted access NOW instead of waiting for the new card to be printed when they renew could pay a replacement fee  (I think it is $10 right now).

If we can't get CAPIDs recognized as official documents...then those that need/want access just go to the base they want/need access to and get a DBIDS card made.   If you want/need access to multiple bases....you repeat as necessary.   Again costs negligible as the costs are already paid for we are just riding their coat tails.....unless everyone showed up on the same day....would not tax the system at all.   And again could be aliviated by passing member dues money to off set the cost of the credentials. 

Title: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 06:33:56 PM
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?
already did.  Had a personal conversation with the commander of CAP-USAF during the national convention.
So....yes I'm doing my part of resolving the issue.  8)
Title: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 06:45:47 PM
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?
already did.  Had a personal conversation with the commander of CAP-USAF during the national convention.
So....yes I'm doing my part of resolving the issue.  8)

Excellent! Did they accepted your proposal? Are they going to act on it? If so, then this discussion may be a moot point.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 08:57:15 PM
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?  How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.

Is CAP-USAF going to send someone to every installation to sign the paperwork and be there in the event a member does something wrong?  How about the other information that is required for DBIDS like the fingerprints and the photo?  So no it's not as simple as a barcode and some data entry.

Cadets will need mom/dads permission for that.  While a move from AETC to ACC may be beneficial and helpful non-ACC bases are not obliged to accept anything from ACC/CC. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 12:53:29 AM
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?  How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.

Is CAP-USAF going to send someone to every installation to sign the paperwork and be there in the event a member does something wrong?  How about the other information that is required for DBIDS like the fingerprints and the photo?  So no it's not as simple as a barcode and some data entry.

Cadets will need mom/dads permission for that.  While a move from AETC to ACC may be beneficial and helpful non-ACC bases are not obliged to accept anything from ACC/CC.
NO PAPER WORK TO SIGN.   Electronics.   Enter the data at NHQ and it appears at the local base.
If some member does something wrong....they get....at the local base level.....flagged in the system and their card confiscated the next time they try to use it.

finger prints are not required for a DBIDS card.  Photos are take at the visitor center when picking up your card.  If the CAPID is modified to be acceptable we just require the picture to be uploaded and validated before the card is issued.  And if we did need to have that type of data...then we would get mom and dad's permission before hand.

You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Slim on May 29, 2015, 07:05:44 AM
All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.

What's going to happen when that member (the retiree) leaves CAP?

Hopefully, a workable solution will have come about by then.  If not, there are other members in the area assigned to guard units on base who are willing to sponsor cards.
Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy. 
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:08:54 AM
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base.

I can name a couple bases where they weren't good enough for base entry. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:14:13 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 07:19:15 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it.
Not disputing that....but that is not the current problem.  The current problem is that the regulation written by the SF Air Staff guys.....from the DOD Force Protection guys.......does not have a CAP shaped hole in it.

CAP-USAF has been slow getting anyone to care.
COMACC may get better traction then AETC.

If the local CAP people have screwed up their welcome....well then they screwed up their welcome.

Of course.....if COMACC pushes the issue... Local AMC/AETC/AFMC Base Commander vs ACC MAJCOM commander.......guess who's gonna lose that one.  :)
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:26:32 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it.
Not disputing that....but that is not the current problem.  The current problem is that the regulation written by the SF Air Staff guys.....from the DOD Force Protection guys.......does not have a CAP shaped hole in it.

CAP-USAF has been slow getting anyone to care.
COMACC may get better traction then AETC.

If the local CAP people have screwed up their welcome....well then they screwed up their welcome.

Of course.....if COMACC pushes the issue... Local AMC/AETC/AFMC Base Commander vs ACC MAJCOM commander.......guess who's gonna lose that one.  :)

You and I both know COMACC can push all he/she wants they do not write policy for other MAJCOMS nor can they dictate policy to them.  AFGSC would carry just as much weight as COMACC given their mission.  Ultimately it will all boil down to the installation CC.  And the regulation for general base access is written at the base level. 

Much of the so-called access issues are easily alleviated by talking to the right people and learning and working with the process instead of against it. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 07:29:20 AM
Been doing that for the last two years and it has only gotten worse.

Because the regulation is not written with CAP in mind.

For things to get better a USAF level change has to take place.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:36:52 AM
Been doing that for the last two years and it has only gotten worse.

Because the regulation is not written with CAP in mind.

For things to get better a USAF level change has to take place.

The first two depends on where you are at.  There are many places where CAP was written into the instruction or has been in there for a significant amount of time.  For things to get better it needs to be understood that simply because of who we are is not and does not grant all inclusive use and access to an installation and it's facilities.  Can a USAF level change help, yes but it has to be on both sides of the fence. 

I can tell you that getting things done within current processes can be done with people who are willing to learn the process and system and work with it rather than against it. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Slim on May 29, 2015, 09:57:00 PM
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base.

I can name a couple bases where they weren't good enough for base entry.

You're right.  The only base I ever had a problem accessing strictly with a CAP ID was a SAC base.  They required me to go to Pass & ID and get a visitor pass with a specific destination (BX/clothing sales) and a time limit (1 hour).  Given the nature of the mission at that particular base, I expected a little extra scrutiny.

Otherwise, I never got a second glance at any of the ANG and ARNG facilities here in Michigan.  Also used it to access Wright-Patterson a few times, Fort Huachuca and D-M a couple of times (in 2004-2005), all with no problems.  Showed the gate guard my ID, they asked where I was headed (clothing sales), and then sent me on my way.

I understand that there are systems and mechanisms in place to get access.  If I really had a need for a DBIDS card for Selfridge, I have 2-3 different people who would sponsor me if I asked.  I just don't have a need to access the base as frequently as I used to.  As infrequently as I use the base nowadays, a little preplanning and getting on an EAL isn't really a problem.  If I was still going out there 2-3 times a month, it would be a different story. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 30, 2015, 08:21:10 AM
I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

It's easier than it seems. It's cheaper than it seems. If USAF wanted it, it would happen. It hasn't happened, so...

Sir its not that simple.  and since we are talking at the min AF wide not that cheap.

But, it is simple. If you climb out of the box.

Difficult = realizing that the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, then trying to design an octagonal peg that will fit the round hole.

Simple = doing a slight shaving of the square peg while also slightly widening the circumference of the hole. Eventually, you'll get a hole that can accommodate either peg without compromising the original round peg.

FWIW - I'VE DONE IT. I still do it. And I get paid handsomely to do it, as I busily go about saving entities money.

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 30, 2015, 01:24:16 PM
But, it is simple. If you climb out of the box.

Difficult = realizing that the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, then trying to design an octagonal peg that will fit the round hole.

Simple = doing a slight shaving of the square peg while also slightly widening the circumference of the hole. Eventually, you'll get a hole that can accommodate either peg without compromising the original round peg.

FWIW - I'VE DONE IT. I still do it. And I get paid handsomely to do it, as I busily go about saving entities money.

Who's going to foot that bill?  These days that money can go to much more important and mission focused areas. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 30, 2015, 01:31:50 PM
But, it is simple. If you climb out of the box.

Difficult = realizing that the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, then trying to design an octagonal peg that will fit the round hole.

Simple = doing a slight shaving of the square peg while also slightly widening the circumference of the hole. Eventually, you'll get a hole that can accommodate either peg without compromising the original round peg.

FWIW - I'VE DONE IT. I still do it. And I get paid handsomely to do it, as I busily go about saving entities money.

Who's going to foot that bill?  These days that money can go to much more important and mission focused areas.

Tell a CAP member that for an extra $20 he can get a smartcard that will facilitate base access and eservices logon?

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 30, 2015, 02:12:45 PM
Tell a CAP member that for an extra $20 he can get a smartcard that will facilitate base access and eservices logon?

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

You gonna write the software update, shell the 20 bucks for a compliant reader and possibly the software?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 30, 2015, 02:38:24 PM
Assuming cap - USAF actually interested, and they will assist with the appropriation of money in developers on the software server side. I already have a complaint reader and software.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 30, 2015, 02:50:04 PM
Assuming cap - USAF actually interested, and they will assist with the appropriation of money in developers on the software server side. I already have a complaint reader and software.

And your assuming that CAP-USAF is willing to foot the 24k plus bill for it all.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: railpig314 on May 30, 2015, 09:20:27 PM
Hey,
Just wanted to put my own two cents in. Slim and I know the same SF NCO. He is a current member of CAP. I talk to him frequently. CAP members cause all kinds of problems at the base. Giving them another ID is going to empower them to to think they have access to things they don't. I agree with the notion that we are treated like second class citizens by "big blue". We still have to realize that we are nothing more then a volunteer club. It even hurts me to say that. The bottom line is that someone is going to have to pay and we are still under sequester. Asking any CAP member to pay anything more is really unacceptable!

And why would anyone want to change our MAJCOM? That makes no sense at all! A move to ACC for what? I really don't understand that one at all. AETC is the only one that makes any sense for CAP......

Again just my opinion!
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: JeffDG on May 30, 2015, 09:32:18 PM
Assuming cap - USAF actually interested, and they will assist with the appropriation of money in developers on the software server side. I already have a complaint reader and software.

Yeah...it'll be as good as WMIRS 2.0.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 30, 2015, 09:36:28 PM

And why would anyone want to change our MAJCOM? That makes no sense at all! A move to ACC for what? I really don't understand that one at all. AETC is the only one that makes any sense for CAP......

Again just my opinion!
Really?  When operationally our ES missions belong to ACC?
The move to ACC is not for CAP's sake but for the USAF's convenience.  When ACC wants to use us for missions outside our normal ES routine....It is a pain the FPOC to get the money moved from one MAJCOM to another.   This way COMACC says get it done...and it gets done....and they can move the money later.    Now....nothing can happen until the money get's moved.

I know of several possible USAF support missions that got dropped because there was not enough lead time to get the money taken care of.   
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: railpig314 on May 30, 2015, 09:42:56 PM
Then I guess the ES mission should be with ACC. Sorry if I misspoke . AE and the Cadet program should be with AETC......
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 30, 2015, 09:54:17 PM
It does not work like that. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: railpig314 on May 30, 2015, 11:30:22 PM
Then I guess we should really consider what our mission is going to be. SAR is not like it used to be. Again, another quasi government organization with an identity crisis.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 30, 2015, 11:35:55 PM
Hey,
Just wanted to put my own two cents in. Slim and I know the same SF NCO. He is a current member of CAP. I talk to him frequently. CAP members cause all kinds of problems at the base.

1st time, educate. 2nd time, 2b. Our place is to help the AF, not "cause all kinds of problems."

Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on May 31, 2015, 12:03:11 AM
Then I guess we should really consider what our mission is going to be. SAR is not like it used to be. Again, another quasi government organization with an identity crisis.
Yes...no more wasteing our time doing ramp checks...now we do SAR for real.  We also do real homeland security missions, and we do real USAF training support missions.

It is the 21st Century....our identity has not changed.   
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: JeffDG on May 31, 2015, 12:56:21 AM
Then I guess we should really consider what our mission is going to be. SAR is not like it used to be. Again, another quasi government organization with an identity crisis.
Yes...no more wasteing our time doing ramp checks...now we do SAR for real.  We also do real homeland security missions, and we do real USAF training support missions.

It is the 21st Century....our identity has not changed.

The ES/DR/HS missions are the ones that pop up on short notice.  As such, it makes a TON of sense to have CAP organized under 1AF so they can assign the missions and they have the funds to make it happen.

The appropriated funding we receive for CP/AE are relatively well known in advance (rarely does an encampment pop up at 3am), and thus if money needs to move from AETC to ACC, there's time to do that paper shuffle.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 31, 2015, 05:28:10 AM
Assuming cap - USAF actually interested, and they will assist with the appropriation of money in developers on the software server side. I already have a complaint reader and software.

And your assuming that CAP-USAF is willing to foot the 24k plus bill for it all.

It is evident that your mind is made up - this CAN'T happen, so you seem determined to see it not happen. You are entitled to your views. But, could you do the ones who see possibilities a favor? When/if they ask for volunteers to make it happen, simply let them?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on May 31, 2015, 06:26:55 AM
It is evident that your mind is made up - this CAN'T happen, so you seem determined to see it not happen. You are entitled to your views. But, could you do the ones who see possibilities a favor? When/if they ask for volunteers to make it happen, simply let them?

Never said it can't happen I have simply said and restated it is not as simple as everyone thinks it is.  It is at a min $24K for senior members alone and that is just for the material it's not taking into account the BI, the time to enter it into the system, and to process the cards. 

I understand you make a living doing this but access to an airport and a mil installation play by two different sets of rules.  And ultimately it will still come down to if the installation commander even decides that he/she wants us on their yard for anything. 

Nothing again nothing has come down and said this is going to happen at all it's all talk right now. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 31, 2015, 08:01:14 AM
It is evident that your mind is made up - this CAN'T happen, so you seem determined to see it not happen. You are entitled to your views. But, could you do the ones who see possibilities a favor? When/if they ask for volunteers to make it happen, simply let them?

Never said it can't happen I have simply said and restated it is not as simple as everyone thinks it is.  It is at a min $24K for senior members alone and that is just for the material it's not taking into account the BI, the time to enter it into the system, and to process the cards. 

With the FEMA credentialing requirements we're eventually going to spend that money anyhow. Waiting doesn't make it cheaper (unless we are waiting for membership to attrit.)

The good news is that means appropriating funds for this becomes easier instead of forcing the members to shoulder it.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Nuke52 on May 31, 2015, 10:23:42 PM
I already have a complaint reader and software.

That will come in handy because there are lots of complaints on this website for you to read...
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: MSG Mac on June 01, 2015, 04:06:31 PM
There are a couple of issues currently being worked at the Air Staff level

1. Transfer of CAP to Air Combat Command
2. Recognition of CAP as the fourth arm of the USAF, (Active, Reserve, Guard, CAP)

The USAF-CAP Commander stated at the NSC that when these issues are completed, CAP would be eligible for entry to AF bases with a new ID Card
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on June 01, 2015, 07:03:03 PM


Never said it can't happen I have simply said and restated it is not as simple as everyone thinks it is. <<SNIP>>

I understand you make a living doing this but access to an airport and a mil installation play by two different sets of rules.  And ultimately it will still come down to if the installation commander even decides that he/she wants us on their yard for anything.   

And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: goblin on June 01, 2015, 07:39:02 PM


2. Recognition of CAP as the fourth arm of the USAF, (Active, Reserve, Guard, CAP)


Well that makes sense...
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 01, 2015, 08:36:20 PM
And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: PHall on June 02, 2015, 04:02:42 AM
And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

If you're on the EAL...
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 02, 2015, 04:07:56 AM
Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on June 02, 2015, 04:11:28 AM
Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
In violation of the printed AFI.  :)
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 02, 2015, 04:15:41 AM
Not every installation requires an EAL for CAP and its as easy and showing CAP ID and a DL or just obtaining a pass.
In violation of the printed AFI.  :)

IAW with the IDP signed by the Wg CC.  Which is directed by AFI. 
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on June 02, 2015, 04:17:42 AM
In violation of the AFI.   :)
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 02, 2015, 04:19:33 AM
In violation of the AFI.   :)

Really...
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: raivo on June 02, 2015, 04:59:38 AM
It is not unheard-of (read: fairly common) for local instructions to contradict HHQ directives, simply because the local authorities aren't aware of said directives.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on June 02, 2015, 06:29:43 AM
And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

I am afraid that you have totally misinterpreted my reasoning. In other words, I said nothing of the sort. But, having explained it as best I can already, I have become weary of trying to engage you in rational discussion on this issue.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 02, 2015, 07:36:43 AM
And...it's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Also - it isn't just a comparison between airports and military installations. Access control systems are surprisingly similar at almost any venue. It isn't the "rules" that cause the most grief. Systems can accommodate almost any rules. But, having said that, base commanders aren't emperors. They are exercising access control authority within authority vested in them by USAF - the same USAF that seems to have not addressed access and identification for its auxiliary in a cohesive and coherent manner. Doing that would change things considerably when it comes to the "rules."

But they have they have left it to the discretion of the installation commander.  Some have said yes, others have said no and others have said nothing.  And by your reasoning I guess my CAC card should give me access to the tarmac there at LAX or hey even SMF or SFO.

I am afraid that you have totally misinterpreted my reasoning. In other words, I said nothing of the sort. But, having explained it as best I can already, I have become weary of trying to engage you in rational discussion on this issue.

No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.

As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.

 Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort. 

Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.

And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.

I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
 
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
 
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?  How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?  There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens. 

Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on. 

Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that. 

So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on June 02, 2015, 08:36:45 AM
No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.
Well...yes....that's part of the deal of being their axillary.

Quote
As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.
And getting us included in the DBIDS regulations does not affect that in any way.  Stop trying to make it like that is what we are saying.

Quote
Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort.
Straw man argument. 

Quote
Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.
Hence our suggestion that the directive be changed.

Quote
And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.
So do I...but we both seem to think it is both too complecated and too easy at the same time.

Quote
I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
So...when we suggest getting said written guidance you say "work with the local base" but now you say nothing can be done until you get the guidance.

Quote
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
DBIDS is controled by the DOD.....and yes if they build a CAP shaped whole for us...then most certainly it will be someone in the USAF doing the data entry.

Quote
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?
My guess the USAF.   when you consider the amount they already spending...the 60K more people will be almost transparent.  But if push came to shove I bet that the general membership would be willing to pay the $20 or so to pay for the costs if they needed regular access to base.
 
Quote
How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?
CAP-USAF.

Quote
There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens.
Yes...but again I think it is a simpler solution then you do.  YMMV.

Quote
Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on.
And strangely that is not true.  My unit has been on Nellis for many many many years.   There have been zero problems with our members on base.  The base gives us several rooms and the use of several more.  The base wants us, supports us, likes us.   But the security manage reading the security AFI....says NOPE.....No CAP shaped whole for you guys.....and it's not worth my job to bend/break the rules for you guys....sorry.   And the Base commander backs up his security manger.   So we are stuck between a guy just doing his job...and an AFI that does not account for us.  No work around.  No going to the base commander to make it happen.   WE NEED AIR STAFF LEVEL attention to get this fixed and fixed right.

Quote
Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that.
No...you should also have a need to be there...like getting uniforms. 

Quote
So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
If you were "the Air Port Auxiliary".....yes you should.   Your argument is a non sequitur.      We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.   We have by regulation (DOD, Army and USAF) a need and authorization to be on base.  All of this is already in the AFIs and AFPDs.   No one is asking for anything more then what we had before.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: abdsp51 on June 02, 2015, 09:08:32 AM
No I get it. It's that sense of entitlement that since we are the AF Aux we are entitled to base access.
Well...yes....that's part of the deal of being their axillary.

Quote
As stated before each installation CC dictates who may cone on and who can't he/she dictates what is needed to access his/her yard.
And getting us included in the DBIDS regulations does not affect that in any way.  Stop trying to make it like that is what we are saying.

Quote
Just as I am sure the requirements for badging at LAX are different from those at SFO or SMF.  There are two places that I personally know of that CAP ID are good for entry with very little effort.
Straw man argument. 

Quote
Sorry but until there is a different directive that is how it will be .  And honestly in this day of age some yards need more stringent entry control.
Hence our suggestion that the directive be changed.

Quote
And btw I do know a thing or too about base entry control.
So do I...but we both seem to think it is both too complecated and too easy at the same time.

Quote
I have never said it can't be done or won't be done I have always said it is not as simple as people think it is.  Plus there is the cost factor involved for materials and man hours to enter information into the system, background check and issue badges.  Potential schedule changes and not to mention rewrites of not only AFI but IDPs as well.  And until there is WRITTEN GUIDANCE for anything major change that has been vetted and approved it will not happen over night.
So...when we suggest getting said written guidance you say "work with the local base" but now you say nothing can be done until you get the guidance.

Quote
DBIDs talks to maybe two or three different systems and that is it, so and the AF is not going to just let anyone into it to input information.
DBIDS is controled by the DOD.....and yes if they build a CAP shaped whole for us...then most certainly it will be someone in the USAF doing the data entry.

Quote
Again I ask you who is going to pay the cost for materials, and man hours in the event this goes through?
My guess the USAF.   when you consider the amount they already spending...the 60K more people will be almost transparent.  But if push came to shove I bet that the general membership would be willing to pay the $20 or so to pay for the costs if they needed regular access to base.
 
Quote
How about who is going to be contacted when a member starts acting a fool on said installation?
CAP-USAF.

Quote
There are many many factors in play here that have to be vetted before this even remotely happens.
Yes...but again I think it is a simpler solution then you do.  YMMV.

Quote
Base access is not difficult to obtain the problem I see here is that members expect to roll up to the gate show our flimsy little ID card and get on and get butt hurt when they are denied access or have to jump through hoops to get on.
And strangely that is not true.  My unit has been on Nellis for many many many years.   There have been zero problems with our members on base.  The base gives us several rooms and the use of several more.  The base wants us, supports us, likes us.   But the security manage reading the security AFI....says NOPE.....No CAP shaped whole for you guys.....and it's not worth my job to bend/break the rules for you guys....sorry.   And the Base commander backs up his security manger.   So we are stuck between a guy just doing his job...and an AFI that does not account for us.  No work around.  No going to the base commander to make it happen.   WE NEED AIR STAFF LEVEL attention to get this fixed and fixed right.

Quote
Being the USAF Aux is not and does grant base access and nor should it based solely off of that.
No...you should also have a need to be there...like getting uniforms. 

Quote
So I ask since you seem to think that it's so easy and should be allowed, can I expect to roll up to a major airport area show my ID and be granted access?  After all I had creds and have been vetted?
If you were "the Air Port Auxiliary".....yes you should.   Your argument is a non sequitur.      We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.   We have by regulation (DOD, Army and USAF) a need and authorization to be on base.  All of this is already in the AFIs and AFPDs.   No one is asking for anything more then what we had before.

1) Being an auxiliary doesn't give any such entitlement period base access is a privilege not a right.

2)Not what I am saying at all period, I have said and always said even if it was allowed local CC still has to say yes.

3) Not a straw man argument.  A workers badge at LAX is not going to work at SFO.  And yes I do personally know of two places that a CAP ID is a valid form for entry, I personally worked that access for one unit.

4) A suggestion based on a sense of entitlement see 1.

5) I can guarantee I know more about base entry control than most here.  I have never said it's complicated I have said it's not as easy as it's made out or perceived to be.

6) I have said getting the access people want via DBIDS isn't going to happen until there is guidance.  HAF will not say simply make it so without it being in writing you and I both know that and that is a long process as well.  And until this happens if it happens work with the base. 

7) The DOD has to approve it and could they build a CAP shape hole yes but they have to do it and we both know the DOD does not move quickly on things. 

8) Show me a local installation that has extra money to throw at this? 

9) So CAP-USAF is going to deal with every member who acts a fool, gets barred from base for whatever stupid reason and winds up getting the entire unit thrown off?  They are going to deal with abuse of the access when it happens if this goes through? 

10) There are manpower costs, material costs, legal liabilities and other things to be discussed and hashed out before something of this magnitude goes into effect.

11) Not true how many times have we heard hear on this forum or in person about how the AF base denied them entry when they rolled up to the gate and were denied entry? Every base is different especially in how they interact with us.  Your unit is an example of a positive interaction with the base, in that you are supported and you are wanted there.  I bet there is something in the IDP there that makes the access easier for you.  You and I both know that a security manager is going to abide by the AFI he/she is required to follow and as long as they are doing their job they will be backed.  The work around you find out what is needed to facilitate access and go through the process.  Can Air Staff fix it yep they can they write up everything under the sun but until someone says ok to it, it will sit somewhere.

12) Exactly you must have a need to be there ie normal meeting, special activity, getting uniform items something officially related.

13) And what is the need for DBIDs cards for day to day access to the installation outside of items listed in 12?  The AFI says may have access, may shop at AAFES not will.  And that AFI and AFPD do not govern installation access.  There is no need for base access outside of events and obtaining uniforms. 

Should access be obtained for official business yes, could/should cards be issued to facilitate the access for official business yes, however it's not as simple as go to base get checked get card and go.
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 02, 2015, 01:43:18 PM
...We are the Civil Air Patrol, the Axillary of the United States Air Force.

Axillary? Ya mean CAP is the armpit of the U.S. Air Force? ;) (I think ya meant auxiliary... :D )
Title: Re: Civil air patrol CAC Cards
Post by: lordmonar on June 02, 2015, 03:02:12 PM
1) Being an auxiliary doesn't give any such entitlement period base access is a privilege not a right.
Why not?
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2)Not what I am saying at all period, I have said and always said even if it was allowed local CC still has to say yes.
He does not  have to say yes to every off duty National Guards man, every retiree, every dependent, every janitor, dump truck driver, contractor, and ever visitor from some other service.   Why must he say YES to every CAP member? You are creating a straw-man argument by saying somehow CAP is special and requires special handling.
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3) Not a straw man argument.  A workers badge at LAX is not going to work at SFO.  And yes I do personally know of two places that a CAP ID is a valid form for entry, I personally worked that access for one unit.
But what happens at FAA facilities has nothing to do with USAF bases.  That's the straw-man.  Secondly my retiree card works at all DoD facilities ergo again you argument does not work.
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4) A suggestion based on a sense of entitlement see 1.
A suggestion need to facilitate the directives in AFPD 10-27 and the 10-27XX series AFIs.  Not to mention the intent of the installation commander.
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5) I can guarantee I know more about base entry control than most here.  I have never said it's complicated I have said it's not as easy as it's made out or perceived to be.
Okay you win.
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6) I have said getting the access people want via DBIDS isn't going to happen until there is guidance.  HAF will not say simply make it so without it being in writing you and I both know that and that is a long process as well.  And until this happens if it happens work with the base.
Yes....but when I suggested that we do just that for just that reason.....you said it was not going to happen and that we should be working with the local commander.   But you don't know what I was going through and you just assumed that I was an entitlement seek CAPPER and never bother to ask what was going on.
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7) The DOD has to approve it and could they build a CAP shape hole yes but they have to do it and we both know the DOD does not move quickly on things.
Never said they would.  Your point?
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8) Show me a local installation that has extra money to throw at this?
The local installation already has the equipment, the manpower, and the requirement to pay for it.   At the most we add 15 minutes of time to the existing job of issuing a DBIDS card and the cost of the card itself.  So your "find me a local base that has the money" argument is a non-player.   Also....let's be real here.  IF were were very very pessimistic and said that it actually cost $100 per cap member to implement this that is only $600K that is a drop in the bucket.  It would take about 10 seconds for that to get through the budget guys and onto the next budget and get added to our congressional funding authorization.
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9) So CAP-USAF is going to deal with every member who acts a fool, gets barred from base for whatever stupid reason and winds up getting the entire unit thrown off?  They are going to deal with abuse of the access when it happens if this goes through?
Sure why not...who does it now?  Cadet X or SM Y gets caught trying to buy cigaretts at the local BX the call the CAP Region Liaison and complain.  They add that individual to "don't allow access list" and if it is a local member talk to the local commander.   You act like we are asking for something we don't already have.   My unit has been on base for [darn] near two decades and there has been a CAP unit on Nellis since at least the 70's.   You are trying to say this is some new problem that has got to be dealt with before we can get access to the base we already have access to.
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10) There are manpower costs, material costs, legal liabilities and other things to be discussed and hashed out before something of this magnitude goes into effect.
Already exists.  We are not asking for anything new.  We are simply asking to be added to the new security program to continue to do what we have been doing for years and years.
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11) Not true how many times have we heard hear on this forum or in person about how the AF base denied them entry when they rolled up to the gate and were denied entry? Every base is different especially in how they interact with us.  Your unit is an example of a positive interaction with the base, in that you are supported and you are wanted there.  I bet there is something in the IDP there that makes the access easier for you.  You and I both know that a security manager is going to abide by the AFI he/she is required to follow and as long as they are doing their job they will be backed.  The work around you find out what is needed to facilitate access and go through the process.  Can Air Staff fix it yep they can they write up everything under the sun but until someone says ok to it, it will sit somewhere.
Yes...that's my point.  The AFI does not have a CAP shaped whole in it.  We need that whole so we can continue to have the access we enjoyed for years and years.
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12) Exactly you must have a need to be there ie normal meeting, special activity, getting uniform items something officially related.
Yes.  And we need to be in the AFI so that we can go to pass and ID and get a pass (at the very least) or be issued a DBIDS card if we have regular continued access needs.   We are not asking to be allowed to cross read at 0300 on a Saturday just because we want see the pretty planes and it is our right as CAP!   We simply want to facilitate the access we had in the past.
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13) And what is the need for DBIDs cards for day to day access to the installation outside of items listed in 12?  The AFI says may have access, may shop at AAFES not will.  And that AFI and AFPD do not govern installation access.  There is no need for base access outside of events and obtaining uniforms.
The alternative is to go to the visitor center every time and get a pass.   That eats up more time.   Let's say member X makes six visits to the local base a year for a BX Run (to buy uniforms) each visit costs 10 minutes to get the pass.  Or he can be issued a DBIDS card which takes 15 minutes to issue and then is good until he's membership expires.   Now let's expand that to a unit meets on base...that's at least 52 visits a year.   You honestly going to tell me that it is cheaper to issue visitor passes then it is to issue a DBIDS card.   And if you go with the idea of making the CAPID DBIDS scannable....we totally eliminate costs to the USAF.
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Should access be obtained for official business yes, could/should cards be issued to facilitate the access for official business yes, however it's not as simple as go to base get checked get card and go.
But it is.  Because that is exactly what we were doing for a year.   We submitted our member's information to CAP Wing, they passed it to the local CAPRAP who passed it on to the base security manager who entered our data into the DBIDS data base.  Our members then went to the visitor's center and were issued their cards.   What has changed is that the local security manager does not think that the local CAP RAP can be a base sponsor....as their status as non-AD reservist not actually assigned to the base is not the right shape per their interpretation of the regulation.  So....what we need is simply a paragraph in the regulation to formalize the already existing process.  Or better yet move all the data entry requirements up to NHQ.