CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: skymaster on November 16, 2011, 12:09:29 AM

Title: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: skymaster on November 16, 2011, 12:09:29 AM
I recently had a long discussion with a lobbyist friend of mine from many years ago, who regularly schmoozes with 3 and 4 star level Air Force officers on a regular basis.  This person is not just some fly-by-night wannabe, but I can confirm from my contacts in the military contracting field that he is 100% the "real deal" in who he actually deals with as part of his job, and thus his subject matter discussion holds a little bit more weight in my eyes than the average CAP member.  The matter of discussion he called me about dealt with the possible future of the CAP organization continuing to be the USAF Auxiliary.  The information that he came into, again, from individuals who would be in a position to discuss such things, indicated that there are certain officers at that level, who think that the funds currently being spent to support CAP as it currently exists, would be better served by CAP's elimination as one of the auxiliary services, with either outright disbandment, or standing up a new Air Force Auxiliary that is completely under Air Force control (more along the lines of an American version of the British Royal Auxiliary Air Force or an Air Division of a State Defense Force).  Normally I would think this is overly cautious worrying from one friend to another, but I am not so sure at this point.  In the past month, I have already heard from multiple sources that CAP member access to base facilities is to be severely restricted if not outright eliminated, as a general practice; as well as the fact that one wing (Georgia) has recently been requested to remove their Wing HQ office from Dobbins Air Reserve Base. (They are now in a facility at a nearby municipal airport).  This, together with an intended more "civilianized" logo design discussion item by CAP leaders, frankly has me a bit worried for the future of CAP in its current form.  I am hoping that this is not the case. Maybe it is a "chicken little" moment for a few people, and maybe several people misheard the same erroneous information, and it really is not anything that the average CAP member needs to be worried about.  What do all of you think?

Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RogueLeader on November 16, 2011, 12:13:59 AM
Such a change would be required to pass congress. So, even if the AF did want us gone, it would take congressional and presidential support. I doubt it will happen.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Salty on November 16, 2011, 12:17:27 AM
The USAF has no compunction about axing heritage items to save money (see base closures) so it wouldn't come as a big shock to me if at some point the USAF said no mas to CAP.

One of the things that has always irritated me about the relationship between CAP and the USAF is how different it is from AFROTC and AFJROTC.  I get that the missions are different but we've always been held at arm's length from the USAF.

If we were to get separated from the USAF I don't think we'd disband.  I think we'd be absorbed into another organization similar to CAP.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Extremepredjudice on November 16, 2011, 12:18:45 AM
Such a change would be required to pass congress. So, even if the AF did want us gone, it would take congressional and presidential support. I doubt it will happen.
Especially with the current polarization... They'd practically oppose it just cause one side introduced it.  ::) >:(
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: bosshawk on November 16, 2011, 12:27:19 AM
The roughly 30-35 million that CAP gets through the AF budget is mice nuts in the overall AF budget.  It might buy one F-16.  If anyone seriously wants to get CAP out of the AF hierarchy, there are more important fish to fry.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 16, 2011, 12:41:38 AM
We have major supporters in both houses of congress. Some random 3 or 4 star can cry all they want, but congress wont kill us.

If you watch carefully during election cycles, every once in a while, a politician up for re-election will trot out "his money saving idea to use CAP instead of multi=million dollar AD assists". It allows that congressman/senator to tell his local constituency that HE saved them tons of money.

Plus it would require the AF to spend triple (or more) what they spend on CAP a year to even get the GAO to conduct a study to see the feasibility of a new "auxiliary". With the secretary of the AF worrying about how he is going to keep the USAF combat ready, he wont support killing an organization that provides warm bodies for lackland,  is used in place of JROTC, and provides DIRT CHEAP air resources to MANY agencies (state/local/federal).

I do not know of a single base that recently asked CAP to not come on base anymore. Every year we hear the same thing, and every year from WW2 we still motor on.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NIN on November 16, 2011, 01:55:36 AM
I do not know of a single base that recently asked CAP to not come on base anymore. Every year we hear the same thing, and every year from WW2 we still motor on.

^^^^ This.

Seriously: If I had a dollar for every time I heard "Well, the [insert one or more: wing, group, squadron] got moved to smaller/crappier digs on base, guess that means the AF will be cutting us loose any minute now..", I could buy most of the folks here on CAP Talk a cup of coffee (at Dunkins. One per 5 CAPTalkers, $2.17 each.  Gotta share, no backwashing). 

Bottom line is: CAP is not, nor ever has been, a "tenant" unit someplace in the eyes of the AF.  Buildings cost money, even unoccupied ones.  The bean counters at HQ/AF and the Department of the Air Force don't see "Building 1245 on Podunk AFB is being used for the Civil Air Patrol, so we gotta leave it alone."  No, they say "Hey, base commander: you have 120 buildings on your base.  We'd really like you to have 100, cuz its costing us $X to maintain 120 building, so it will probably cost $X - 20% to maintain 100 buildings.  Pick your 20 crappiest buildings, move everything AF out, and flatten 'em."  So CAP, the cub scouts, the Airman's Attic and the Airman Against Drunk Driving get kicked to the curb when its time to dump those 20 buildings, because the other things in those buildings were AF assets and they *must* get buildings..

On the other hand, I'm still and always consistently amazed sometimes that CAP is *still* in the Air Force fold.  Most of you were not in CAP when it went thru its "terrible teenager" years where it poked a finger in the eye of the Air Force and said "Nah-nah, you can't do nothing about it!"  Yeaaaah, that was a fun time, and these same conversations were had by the same (well, not _the_ same) anonymous 3 & 4 stars, and very consistently there were "well-placed, highly knowledgeable 'folks-in-the-know'" who swore up and down that CAP is on the verge of being [disbanded, subsumed, reorganized, federalized, decriminalized, demineralized or demoralized... pick one] tomorrow.

And I mean this was when there was out-and-out acrimony on the part of the Executive Director and the National Commander toward the Air Force.  And look: 10+ years later, we're still here.

The other side of the coin is, and I don't know how good of a job CAP does at this: a lot of people in the military hierarchy don't get the distinction between JROTC and CAP, as far as "school-based vs. community-based."   I almost guarantee its this way sometimes in the Air Force (Holm Center notwithstanding).  I've dealt with this in the USAC: When we talk to fairly senior Army officers, they know all about CAP and its cadet program, and we say "OK, so what does the Army have like CAP's cadet program?" and they usually answer "JROTC!" We have to remind them that, at least for AJROTC, that program is only accessible to something like 3.5 or 4% of the high school-aged population in the US.   So, for more than 95% of the high schoolers in the country, if their school does not have an AJROTC unit, they're out of luck.  A community-based program, however, draws from a larger geographical area and is not as dependent on the vagaries of the school systems, funding, etc.

Something to think about when the "CAP vs. JROTC" thing comes up.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 16, 2011, 03:08:17 AM
Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 03:23:02 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: PHall on November 16, 2011, 03:50:45 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

I thought you were of the "no uniform" crowd.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 04:00:23 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

I thought you were of the "no uniform" crowd.

I don't recall ever saying that. Are you going to countinue berating me or allow me to express an opinion?  
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 16, 2011, 04:12:52 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

You must be in the sad corner of CAP then.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 04:38:19 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

You must be in the sad corner of CAP then.

This may be true, but I did say "IMHO". I just see the CAP moving further away from the USAF in the future is all. They seem to hold us at arms length now...
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on November 16, 2011, 04:40:15 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

You must be in the sad corner of CAP then.

This may be true, but I did say "IMHO". I just see the CAP moving further away from the USAF in the future is all. They seem to hold us at arms length now...

My version of "further away from the USAF" is the BBDU and White/Grey combo. But to each his own I guess.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
IMHO, I see the CAP going more towards the "polo shirt crowd".

You must be in the sad corner of CAP then.

This may be true, but I did say "IMHO". I just see the CAP moving further away from the USAF in the future is all. They seem to hold us at arms length now...

My version of "further away from the USAF" is the BBDU and White/Grey combo. But to each his own I guess.

Works for me.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: cap235629 on November 16, 2011, 05:03:00 AM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 05:06:31 AM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.

I agree. At least in the blue, the tapes, etc match. The camos look funny with the "blue trim".
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: johnnyb47 on November 16, 2011, 05:26:01 AM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.

I agree. At least in the blue, the tapes, etc match. The camos look funny with the "blue trim".
I'll give you that to a degree but I would argue that the yellow or orange reflective vests look FAR better on camo than they do on the bbdu.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: davidsinn on November 16, 2011, 05:28:01 AM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.

I agree. At least in the blue, the tapes, etc match. The camos look funny with the "blue trim".

Actually, they look worse on the BBDU. They clash because they are not complimentary shades. The BDU looks ok at best with them. I would much prefer it if my uniform was at least uniformly blue...
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 16, 2011, 05:29:23 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:35:30 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

I tried to pull it back!   :(
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SARDOC on November 16, 2011, 05:37:09 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

Should create a Uniform thread where everyone posts how they would handle every uniform issue imaginable..then instead of rehashing it over and over again in every thread you could just link it when appropriate to keep the OP thread from getting continuously derailed...like this...   -out-
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 16, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

Should create a Uniform thread where everyone posts how they would handle every uniform issue imaginable..then instead of rehashing it over and over again in every thread you could just link it when appropriate to keep the OP thread from getting continuously derailed...like this...   -out-

 :o

I demand this happen right away!!!

 :clap:
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NIN on November 16, 2011, 06:03:24 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

No kidding. Geez.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: davedove on November 16, 2011, 12:39:36 PM
Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.

You get those kind of arguments all through military channels (and probably all through the different governments).  General XYZ will be upset because he doesn't get all the funds he wants for his pet project, so he criticizes spending money on something he doesn't think is as important.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: MSG Mac on November 16, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
The DofD has been told by the President to cut costs accross the Board, and there is a Congressional Super-Committee with a mandate to come up with a plan to cut expenses throughout the government by next week. How this effects CAP we'll find out soon. But as pointed out, only a change in Public Laws can change CAP's relationship with the Air Force. BTW if CAP's $30 Megabucks were to be canceled, it doesn't mean it can be used for another AF project, That comes from the military budget which is very strict about where every dollar is spent and accounted for.   
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 06:27:07 PM
Yes....but in the budget battle.

General X needs $150M for his Super Secret Neeto Raygun project....he may go around pointing out budget items other generals have on their wish list that he thinks are "not important".

Then the fight is on.

Bottom line though.....is of course removal of service.

Who gets the short end of the stick when you cut CAP's $30M?

Someone still has to do SAR......and how much is that going to cost if they hand it off to some other DoD agency or pass the costs onto the state/county government?

Or do they just drop it all together?
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on November 16, 2011, 06:30:09 PM
Removal of funding doesn't automatically equate to removal of our operations mandate. Kind of like how this year the State of Illinois killed the paychecks of regional superintendents but not their jobs.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: LTC Don on November 16, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
This isn't about CAP being cut from the budget.  That's a pretty absurd an idea anyway.  As just said, the mandate is to cut expenses - that being the case, this is all about the Air Force examining what 'non-essential' and 'non-combat' tasks can be handed off to CAP as a value-added proposition to take advantage of our volunteer services.

I bet if many were intellectually honest, there are quite a few things we can do for the Air Force that would save them quite a bit.

Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.



Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: JeffDG on November 16, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: davidsinn on November 16, 2011, 07:49:48 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.

We would be working directly for the government I don't think the FAA could say anything.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: JeffDG on November 16, 2011, 07:53:17 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.

We would be working directly for the government I don't think the FAA could say anything.
Who we're working for is not material.  The determination of whether we are a "public aircraft" or a "civil aircraft" is determined not by "who" but by "what".  Transporting people or property as suggested is, clearly, a civil aircraft function, unlike something like being a water-bomber doing fire-fighting.  The FAA ruled in 1981 that we were "civil aircraft" and subject to FARs, not "public aircraft" exempt from such requirements.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/FAR_EXEMPTIONS_FOR_CAP_AIRCRAFT_OPE_8A476BED098D6.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/FAR_EXEMPTIONS_FOR_CAP_AIRCRAFT_OPE_8A476BED098D6.pdf)
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 09:00:56 PM
If it's an A or B mission then we are exempt from the reinbursment rules.

Still don't see why we can't fly parts and people for the USAF if tasked on an A mission.

We may have to require our pilots for those mission to have a comercial ticket......but I don't see why we could not do it.


In fact....we already have the exemption in place.  See the table all the way at the bottom.  TRANSPORATION passengers or non-CAP property.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 09:56:29 PM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RogueLeader on November 16, 2011, 10:02:00 PM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.

Like I said, a 4 star can't kill us, only congress and the president can.  He may want to, but even the SECAF, SECDEF can't do that to us.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 16, 2011, 11:54:16 PM
I remember times like 1995, when John McCain came seriously close to shutting us down.  National even authorised a letter-writing campaign to try to prevent it.  Thank God, it worked, but there were structural changes made in the interim that were not so good: overcorporatisation at the National level, and being reduced to only part-time Auxiliary status.

I wrote a letter to my Representative (D), and both of my Senators (R) at that time.  The Representative was quite well-versed with CAP and wrote me back an enthusiastic letter.  One of the Senators said that because he didn't serve on the Armed Services committee it wasn't in his ballpark, and the other echoed the McCain line of the time: if it doesn't drop bombs, break things and kill people, it doesn't belong in DoD.

There are times when I do feel that we really are the red-haired stepchild of the Air Force.  I am proud of our historical connection with the Air Force, but I also believe now the Air Force as a whole could really give a flying fig about us, which is evidenced in the fact that so few in the Air Force even know who we are!

Personally, if a SECAF or CSAF wants to get rid of us, why say no?  If someone doesn't want me in an organisation, then, fine, that goes two ways: I may not necessarily want you either.

It seems like that most of the AF people I talk to only care about one thing: cadets.  After all, that's potential warm bodies through the gates of Lackland or Colorado Springs.

I will say this: if CAP is cut completely loose from the AF, I give it at most five years before the organisation folds or metamorphoses into something else, and we will lose a LOT of membership, one of which will be yours truly.

There is a very active NSCC unit in my city, and I've been a member of the CGAUX before and can be again, and I'd also be up for contacting Colonel Land about the ACA.

Oh, the Royal Auxiliary Air Force analogy doesn't apply, because they are a lot more like the Air Force Reserve.  They are combat-capable, combat-trained (a few of their squadrons are dedicated Royal Air Force Regiment ground-defence units) and under Queen's Regulations (UCMJ).

Also, the SDF Air Wing possibility probably wouldn't work.  Quite a few SDF's started out with air units but then dropped them...in some cases because state AG's saw too much overlap with CAP!  I think the only ones that have dedicated air units now are Texas, Puerto Rico, Oregon and California, although Virginia has one based on Army Aviation.  Indiana and New York used to have them.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 17, 2011, 12:04:27 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.
Just got out of a meeting with some high ranking DoD types.....and they seem to like us
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 17, 2011, 12:23:55 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.
Just got out of a meeting with some high ranking DoD types.....and they seem to like us

I also had a meeting with some "high-up" mukity mucks. One was the state adjutant general, the other was the Lt. Gov of the state who spoke for the governor. I brought up this very fact and thread. (reason for meeting was our wing king sits on the governors cabinet)

 The Lt. Gov almost had a heart attack when I told him about it. He said and I quote (I wrote it down just to post it here) "that wont fly with this state, the governor and myself will both lean heavily on our congressmen, and if need be, testify on the hill against letting you all go".

My wing has a great relationship with the local AF base's and the state. They use the wing allot with flights and ground teams. Iím 100% sure my state would blow a gasket if we were dumped. We save the state MILLIONS every year.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: jimmydeanno on November 17, 2011, 12:33:36 AM
The 3-Star (Major Command Commander) in my neck of the woods seems to be pretty pleased with us. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 17, 2011, 02:36:25 AM
Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.
To be clear, I'm not surprised that such talk is around, but I also don't think it is likely to amount to much unless CAP does something incredibly stupid to mess things up. 

Keep in mind that CAP has made it through a lot of previous DoD budget cutbacks.  From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 17, 2011, 02:44:46 AM
Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.
To be clear, I'm not surprised that such talk is around, but I also don't think it is likely to amount to much unless CAP does something incredibly stupid to mess things up. 

Keep in mind that CAP has made it through a lot of previous DoD budget cutbacks.  From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

I have thought allot about your last statement before. To an extent it is still baffling, but at the same time not. Americans were shocked that the coasts were no longer safe. Even when the war ended people were still very aware that with "modern technology" the coast was vulnerable. Keeping CAP on the books and in the skies made sense for generals turned politicians after the war.

Still would be interesting to really find out how hard CAP had to fight to stay up in the air.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SARDOC on November 17, 2011, 02:51:36 AM
I think any basic cost benefit analysis would show us as an asset worth keeping.  I would like to see the USAF help CAP become more of a resource for other federal agencies like HLS or FEMA
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: ZigZag911 on November 17, 2011, 05:08:49 AM
First, USAF gets a lot more 'bang for the buck' from CAP than AFJROTC.

Secondly, 1st AF seems fairly pleased with us, as does FEMA.

Thirds, if USAF ever did cut us loose, it is very possible either Homeland Security or the Army Guard would grab us PDQ...which might give the Air Staff second thoughts (if indeed this is anything other than the occasional "sky is falling" talk).
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: DBlair on November 17, 2011, 06:00:41 AM
First, USAF gets a lot more 'bang for the buck' from CAP than AFJROTC.

Secondly, 1st AF seems fairly pleased with us, as does FEMA.

Thirds, if USAF ever did cut us loose, it is very possible either Homeland Security or the Army Guard would grab us PDQ...which might give the Air Staff second thoughts (if indeed this is anything other than the occasional "sky is falling" talk).

I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

So, with that said, I agree that CAP would be quickly absorbed... and just think, we already have a variety of non-AF uniforms from which DHS could choose for CAP. lol  :-\ Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 17, 2011, 06:32:21 AM
I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

Back in 1995 when John McCain was wielding his death ray toward us, there was talk of shifting us to DoT, which of course "owned" the USCG and USCGAUX at the time.  CAP would likely have disappeared, as we would have very likely been absorbed by the CGAUX.

The cadet side of things would also have been deep-sixed.

Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

And that would just please the stink out of our members who dislike the paramilitary connections (I am not one of those) and want us to be all SAR/DR, all the time.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.

I have wished that for a long time, and my views are not shared by a lot of CAP members.

I have thought that CAP-USAF should be moved to the Air Force Reserve Command, and that our National Commander would be an AFRES two-star, with a CAP one-star as his/her deputy.

Region commanders would be an AFRES one-star, with a CAP Colonel as deputy.

Wing commanders would be an AFRES Colonel, with a CAP lieutenant colonel as deputy.

(The reason I say AFRES and not ANG is because of the Title 10 dual state/Federal jurisdiction...we are always Federal, and an ANG officer not Federalized could likely not exercise control over us, because s/he would be responsible to his/her State AG).

The Auxiliary factor, as you put it, is what drew me.  Lose that and you lose quite a few people, except for the all SAR/DR, all the time sector.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 17, 2011, 06:32:38 AM
Excuse me while I go on a rant:

I am so sick and tired of people in CAP afraid to say we are part of the AF family.

Just because airman are not given a class at basic, or some random officers dislike CAP means nothing. We ARE part of the AF family. We have members who wanted nothing more in life than to serve on AD, but could not due to medical problems or other disqualifying items. These members are some of the most active and devoted I have ever meet in my life, and to be honest, they put ALOT of AD members to shame in that department.

I stress this every time I talk to someone in the military, we are part of the family... Donít like it? That sucks for you, help me carry out our congressional mission or get out of my way. I donít have time for people who are scared to offend Airman bag - o - &%$*.

GRRRR

END OF RANT.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 17, 2011, 06:44:29 AM
Rant shared.

We have members who wanted nothing more in life than to serve on AD, but could not due to medical problems or other disqualifying items. These members are some of the most active and devoted I have ever meet in my life, and to be honest, they put ALOT of AD members to shame in that department.

I have known plenty of those, as well as former members of the Armed Forces who had to get out for medical reasons, hardship discharge, etc.

I donít have time for people who are scared to offend Airman bag - o - &%$*.

I don't either, but unfortunately for us there are a considerable amount of people up the chain who ARE afraid to offend 18 year old Airman Slicksleeve, who complains to First Shirt Diamond that some old fart wearing "our" uniform isn't wearing it "right" and shouldn't be wearing it.  First Shirt Diamond then mentions it where Lieutenant Colonel Silverball hears it, and Lt Col Silverball happens to know someone at CAP-USAF who knows someone at AETC who wears stars...

Then National starts in with the handwringing about "We have to be more distinctive (a word I'm beginning to loathe)!  The Air Force is mad at us!  Let's see what else on the uniform we can turn grey!"

And that ends up as more fodder for our members who hate the fact that we have any connection to the AF.

Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: PHall on November 17, 2011, 07:03:28 AM
I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

Back in 1995 when John McCain was wielding his death ray toward us, there was talk of shifting us to DoT, which of course "owned" the USCG and USCGAUX at the time.  CAP would likely have disappeared, as we would have very likely been absorbed by the CGAUX.

The cadet side of things would also have been deep-sixed.

Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

And that would just please the stink out of our members who dislike the paramilitary connections (I am not one of those) and want us to be all SAR/DR, all the time.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.

I have wished that for a long time, and my views are not shared by a lot of CAP members.

I have thought that CAP-USAF should be moved to the Air Force Reserve Command, and that our National Commander would be an AFRES two-star, with a CAP one-star as his/her deputy.

Region commanders would be an AFRES one-star, with a CAP Colonel as deputy.

Wing commanders would be an AFRES Colonel, with a CAP lieutenant colonel as deputy.

(The reason I say AFRES and not ANG is because of the Title 10 dual state/Federal jurisdiction...we are always Federal, and an ANG officer not Federalized could likely not exercise control over us, because s/he would be responsible to his/her State AG).

The Auxiliary factor, as you put it, is what drew me.  Lose that and you lose quite a few people, except for the all SAR/DR, all the time sector.

I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 17, 2011, 08:01:38 AM
I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.

There aren't AFRC units in every state and territory, but there are AFRC personnel assigned virtually everywhere any AF component has a presence.

The state mission...is it defined by statute and/or law, the way the ANG/ARNG/SDF's are?
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: flyboy53 on November 17, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.

There aren't AFRC units in every state and territory, but there are AFRC personnel assigned virtually everywhere any AF component has a presence.

The state mission...is it defined by statute and/or law, the way the ANG/ARNG/SDF's are?

Speaking in very general terms, a state National Guard's mission is buried in Title 10 and 32 of US Code. That said, the National Guard is basically the Governor's Muscle and the State Guard of SDF is the reserve of the Guard and functions in a similar capacity, especially when the National Guard is federalized. That said, most state National Guards are a division or part of another division and their missions sometimes have a geographic component based on the missions of the Reserve or regular units or bases around them. Sometimes a geographically separated unit has an odd mission like aviation support (where the unit is composed mostly of truck drivers) or light artillery. Most of the time, however, they are infantry.

If we fell under the National Guard Bureau, the postive side of that idea/concept is that we might have access to National Guard funding for youth programs and the mechanism might be in place for better coordination with state emergency management or homeland security departments in order to be used for more state-oriented missions.

What you are suggesting, too, would roll us back into how the Air Force employed/used the CAP back in the 1950s and early 1960s. Old timers might remember that the Continental Air Command once served as an umbrella for us, the Air Guard and the Reserve. We were much closer to the Air Force then.

But with all this anti-Air Force Auxiliary stuff that has actually severely fractured our organization over the last decade or so, it caused a lot of State Guard organizations to form or futher develop their own aviation organizations that serve as reserves to the Air Guard.

I just think it's sad because the anti-Auxilary philosophy gained so much momentum, where there seems to be such a lack of discipline and committment to standards, that we now have so many senior members who treat this organization more as a social club or fraternity and we have cadets who are better disciplined or motivated than the adults who lead them. It needs to change.

You volunteer to join an organization like this, you need to accept personal responsibility to do what is called of you....it demonstrates that we can be trusted players. Without it, I can see why the Air Force may have begun to question our usefulness in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 17, 2011, 01:05:45 PM
If there was ever any major change in the CAP/USAF relationship, I'm fairly sure it would be to towards eliminating the CAP corporation and bringing us under AF control like the CG controls CG Aux.  If CAP was dropped as the AF Aux there is no way it would ever survive long enough to be "picked up" by someone else. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RRLE on November 17, 2011, 02:54:19 PM
From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Eclipse on November 17, 2011, 03:20:15 PM
CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

Is your assertion someone just didn't notice CAP had moved?
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 17, 2011, 03:26:35 PM
From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.
I don't think things were that simplistic.  Keep in mind that it was very soon after the war that CAP was made into a corporation and separated from the military to some extent.  I can only imagine this as some sort of compromise between those wanting to shut CAP down and CAP supporters. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RRLE on November 17, 2011, 03:28:14 PM
CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

Is your assertion someone just didn't notice CAP had moved?

Nope. General Rule. If Office A is moved from Dept 1 to Dept 2, and then, some time later, all the remaining offices under Dept 1 and Dept 1 itself are terminated, then Office A is not effected since it is no longer under or part of Dept 1. CAP escaped the demise of the old OCD simply because it was no longer part of OCD.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SARDOC on November 17, 2011, 03:31:55 PM
I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.  Don't get me wrong...I wasn't there it was way before my time.  I think even then they saw a future in civil aviation being able to support a multitude of missions.  I for one am glad they did.

I am glad of our relationship with the Air Force...regardless of what color shirt I wear.  It's not about looking good...it's about being good.  I think if we focused more on bettering ourselves as an organization instead of bickering over uniforms we would make much more progress in being a more productive part of that Air Force Family instead of just being that weird cousin that they really don't know.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: JeffDG on November 17, 2011, 03:48:41 PM
From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.
OCD was created by EO, so can be terminated by same.

CAP has a Congressional Charter right now, codified in Public Law.  The President cannot, by executive order, nullify a public law.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: JeffDG on November 17, 2011, 03:49:16 PM
I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.  Don't get me wrong...I wasn't there it was way before my time.  I think even then they saw a future in civil aviation being able to support a multitude of missions.  I for one am glad they did.

I am glad of our relationship with the Air Force...regardless of what color shirt I wear.  It's not about looking good...it's about being good.  I think if we focused more on bettering ourselves as an organization instead of bickering over uniforms we would make much more progress in being a more productive part of that Air Force Family instead of just being that weird cousin that they really don't know.
:clap:
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RRLE on November 17, 2011, 03:58:19 PM
I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.

Possible but unlikely. CAP was moved more then 2 years before the shut down of OCD.

Moving CAP from OCD to the War Department paralleled the placement of the CGAux which always existed under the USCG. If CAP was an Aux of the USA then it belonged under the War Department not under OCD.

I have yet to find a good book length treatment of the WWII OCD. That is strange because of the hundreds of thousands of volunteers who were part of it. However, there is quite a bit of research available on it on the web. One somewhat consistent theme is that OCD 'suffered' from Eleanor Roosevelt's patronage of it.  From 1941-42 ER was the Assistant Director of the OCD. She resigned in 1942 amid criticism that she was staffing the agency with high level cronies, some of whom were alleged in the vernacular of the times to be too 'pink'. ER had been instrumental in the removal of LaGuardia as director and replacing him with James Landis, who some saw as one of the 'pinks'.

She also came under criticism for trying to include under civil defense such issues as nutrition, housing, day-by-day medical care, education and recreation. The southern 'gentlemen' in Congress also fought her attempt to integrate the OCD.

So with OCD under attack it would make sense to move CAP to the War Department and have it mirror the placement of the USCGAux.

I have no idea why post-war, CAP became a corporation.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 17, 2011, 07:21:48 PM
What you are suggesting, too, would roll us back into how the Air Force employed/used the CAP back in the 1950s and early 1960s. Old timers might remember that the Continental Air Command once served as an umbrella for us, the Air Guard and the Reserve. We were much closer to the Air Force then.

That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Air_Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Air_Command)

But with all this anti-Air Force Auxiliary stuff that has actually severely fractured our organization over the last decade or so, it caused a lot of State Guard organizations to form or futher develop their own aviation organizations that serve as reserves to the Air Guard.

There aren't as many of those as you might think.

Two of them that I know of were disbanded (New York, Indiana) non-flying units.

The only active ones I know of right now are in Texas, California and Oregon, all of which have a non-flying mission of backfilling Air Guard units in those states when the Air Guard is Federalised.  The only one I know of with a mission similar to CAP is one in Virginia organised along Army Aviation lines.  Ohio has an active Naval Militia commanded by a retired Marine.

I just think it's sad because the anti-Auxilary philosophy gained so much momentum, where there seems to be such a lack of discipline and committment to standards, that we now have so many senior members who treat this organization more as a social club or fraternity and we have cadets who are better disciplined or motivated than the adults who lead them. It needs to change.

Agreed wholeheartedly.  When I first joined ('93), we formed up in the drill hall of the Armed Forces Reserve facility and customs and courtesies were not "optional" as they too often are now.

Our commander, a Lt Col, isn't saluted now by much of the membership when he should be and senior officers who report to him are more like "yeah, whaddaya need, Joe (not his name)?" rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

You volunteer to join an organization like this, you need to accept personal responsibility to do what is called of you....it demonstrates that we can be trusted players. Without it, I can see why the Air Force may have begun to question our usefulness in the grand scheme of things.

Especially when the AF reads comments like many of those here who are openly anti-Air Force Auxiliary.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: ZigZag911 on November 17, 2011, 07:37:46 PM
USCG is so much smaller and resource strapped than USAF; consequently CG needs and appreciates the augmentation of AUX members.

While it would be very nice, I don't think it's a realistic possibility that we'd ever have that close a working relationship with USAF.

In spite of Ma Blue's occasionally aloof attitude toward us, I too sincerely hope we remain the Air Force Auxiliary.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: KT on November 17, 2011, 10:43:32 PM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 17, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.
+1

Knock, Knock....hey boss I need you to sign something.....okay Pat....let me see it.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Hardshell Clam on November 17, 2011, 11:24:04 PM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.

I agree. At least in the blue, the tapes, etc match. The camos look funny with the "blue trim".
Actually, they look worse on the BBDU. They clash because they are not complimentary shades. The BDU looks ok at best with them. I would much prefer it if my uniform was at least uniformly blue...

We can agree to disagee, as I like 'em on the blues myself :)
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: LGM30GMCC on November 18, 2011, 12:38:47 AM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.
+1

Knock, Knock....hey boss I need you to sign something.....okay Pat....let me see it.

We start to stand up, or manage to stand up in the office when our CC  walks in and he he motions for us to sit down. Or if we are standing there he just tells us 'Sit, sit sit,' or 'Sit down' and such.(granted we consist of a bunch of missileer 1Lts and Capts)

If I need to talk to him it's a knock on the door

"Sir, X Y and Z just happened and we are looking at doing A B and C" "Cool...do that."

While you are respectful and use Customs and Courtesies it is RARE to see someone report in. The exception is service dress. If you see someone in service dress day to day it usually means either A) they really screwed up or B) they are really awesome.

Customs and Courtesies are all about respect. They are not supposed to be this SUPERHARDCORE ZOMG YOU ARE AWESOME I'M NOT WORTHY TO BREATHE THE SAME AIR.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Nolan Teel on November 18, 2011, 12:46:26 AM
Here Here!
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: jimmydeanno on November 18, 2011, 12:47:41 AM
Here Here!

Or even, hear hear!  :P
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 18, 2011, 06:10:13 AM
Customs and Courtesies are all about respect. They are not supposed to be this SUPERHARDCORE ZOMG YOU ARE AWESOME I'M NOT WORTHY TO BREATHE THE SAME AIR.

I never intended it that way.

Back when I first joined CAP in 1993, my then-squadron really did do stuff like come to attention when a senior officer entered the room.

Also back then, cadets who would be walking down a hallway would stop and say "Sir/Ma'am, permission to pass" before walking past you.  That took some getting used to.

Things have changed...a lot.  The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; there's not much of a "happy medium" any more.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: jimmydeanno on November 18, 2011, 03:55:53 PM
Yep, and the only person that an office comes to attention for in my wife's unit is the squadron commander (or higher commander).  Considering the open nature of most work centers nowadays (cubicle farms) it would be impractical for them to come to attention, every time an officer walked in the room, considering that the office will have 3 of them sitting right in the middle.  It might be a little easier if the environment was more conducive to having the officers segregated.

In a CAP context, I don't necessarily come to attention when someone enters my office, but I certainly stand up to greet the person that enters (Parents, grandparents, potential members).  There are two other people in my office area, though, and they'd be coming to attention every 15 seconds on any given night.


It's just important to remember that customs and courtesies aren't so much about the "rule" aspect of what they represent, but the attempt at showing respect to the person you're doing them for.  If you are a generally polite and respectful person, you do 90% of the stuff in the regulation in the first place.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Eclipse on November 18, 2011, 03:56:28 PM
So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?

Enhanced enjoyment of too many movies?
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on November 18, 2011, 04:46:49 PM
It's just important to remember that customs and courtesies aren't so much about the "rule" aspect of what they represent, but the attempt at showing respect to the person you're doing them for.  If you are a generally polite and respectful person, you do 90% of the stuff in the regulation in the first place.

And it should not interfere with the mission getting done. We don't call a class in session to attention. Only the leader of a work party salutes. If 2nd Lt. Newbee is deep in getting the personnel files up to spec, let him/her work.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Ned on November 18, 2011, 05:06:30 PM
Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   

Not very strange when you consider that Air Force cadets brace and come to attention when an officer passes.  At least they did the last time I visited the Academy last year.  And AFROTC cadets have a similarly high customs and courtesies requirement.

And the last time I visted Lackland, I saw that the BMT trainees also were expected to exhibit a high level of customs and courtesies.  And although I haven't been to an AF tech school, I am given to understand that the airmen still have formations, do some marching, and are held to a fairly high customs and courtesies standard.  Less that BMT, I suppose, but higher than they will be held to when they arrive at their operational unit as trained airmen.

Why?

I suspect it has something to do with the military training method successfully used by every military in the world since the first Legionnaire was disciplined by a centurion.  Trainees have always been held to a higher standard while they are learning military and other new skills.

CAP cadets continue this long and successful tradition.  Cadets - by definition - are students.  They are learning leadership, getting an aerospace education, getting in shape, and developing their character as part of the Cadet Program.  And our training method uses some military aspects to challenge and develop our cadets.

Which includes a high level of military customs and courtesies.  Like standing when an officer comes into the room.  Saluting smartly when appropriate.  And addressing seniors as "Ma'am" or "Sir" as appropriate.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: etc on November 18, 2011, 05:40:08 PM
I'm still pretty new but have noticed how stringently customs and courtesies are enforced in the cadet program. I try to do the same as much as possible. To be it seems a bit hypocritical to not.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on November 18, 2011, 05:49:20 PM
This isn't about CAP being cut from the budget.  That's a pretty absurd an idea anyway.  As just said, the mandate is to cut expenses - that being the case, this is all about the Air Force examining what 'non-essential' and 'non-combat' tasks can be handed off to CAP as a value-added proposition to take advantage of our volunteer services.

I bet if many were intellectually honest, there are quite a few things we can do for the Air Force that would save them quite a bit.

Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.

Ah yes...

"General Sir... We are sorry, but we have to take your C-37 away from you. But we have arranged for you to fly in a brand new C-182 instead... Your pilot is that older gentleman in the polo shirt over there. "
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on November 18, 2011, 05:51:09 PM
I'm still pretty new but have noticed how stringently customs and courtesies are enforced in the cadet program. I try to do the same as much as possible. To be it seems a bit hypocritical to not.

Cadets are fun... and evil.

Aside from cadets being sticklers for C & C, I have noticed the same for military NCO's. And I have seen one or two pointedly correct the occasional wayward officer. (With respect to rank of course) 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:27:27 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
+1.

My cadets come back from encampment and you can't walk 10 feet with out 2-3 cadets bracing up and shouting "Good Evening Sir!".
Geez....I was just going to the bathroom!
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:33:51 PM
Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   

Not very strange when you consider that Air Force cadets brace and come to attention when an officer passes.  At least they did the last time I visited the Academy last year.  And AFROTC cadets have a similarly high customs and courtesies requirement.

And the last time I visted Lackland, I saw that the BMT trainees also were expected to exhibit a high level of customs and courtesies.  And although I haven't been to an AF tech school, I am given to understand that the airmen still have formations, do some marching, and are held to a fairly high customs and courtesies standard.  Less that BMT, I suppose, but higher than they will be held to when they arrive at their operational unit as trained airmen.

Why?

I suspect it has something to do with the military training method successfully used by every military in the world since the first Legionnaire was disciplined by a centurion.  Trainees have always been held to a higher standard while they are learning military and other new skills.

CAP cadets continue this long and successful tradition.  Cadets - by definition - are students.  They are learning leadership, getting an aerospace education, getting in shape, and developing their character as part of the Cadet Program.  And our training method uses some military aspects to challenge and develop our cadets.

Which includes a high level of military customs and courtesies.  Like standing when an officer comes into the room.  Saluting smartly when appropriate.  And addressing seniors as "Ma'am" or "Sir" as appropriate.
And I agree......hence the comments from the other thread about how seniors address each other when cadets are not around and how they act when cadets are around.

We stress the C&C's....but we don't go over board.  I never chew out someone who renders even hard core C&C's.....especially if they are new.  We will get to relaxing them as they mature and know when and were hard core C&C is appropriat and more familuarity is called for.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: davedove on November 18, 2011, 06:34:26 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
+1.

My cadets come back from encampment and you can't walk 10 feet with out 2-3 cadets bracing up and shouting "Good Evening Sir!".
Geez....I was just going to the bathroom!

What?  And no one moved to make sure the seat was warm for you???? >:(
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:41:34 PM
I'm still pretty new but have noticed how stringently customs and courtesies are enforced in the cadet program. I try to do the same as much as possible. To be it seems a bit hypocritical to not.
It is not really hypocritical.....if you understand the "why" behind what we do.

You can scale your behavior based on the situaiton.
Cadets around, not around.
A visitinting DV.
Formal awards.
Work/Classroom environment.

As Ned said....we are teaching 12 year olds the basics of respect, attention to detail and critical thinking.  We use drill and ceremonies and Customs and Courtisies as a tool to teach these skills.

Seniors working in a purly senior enviornment or with senior cadets....the need to use these tools is less important, and therefore it may be appropriate to be more lax in our C&Cs.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:42:16 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
+1.

My cadets come back from encampment and you can't walk 10 feet with out 2-3 cadets bracing up and shouting "Good Evening Sir!".
Geez....I was just going to the bathroom!

What?  And no one moved to make sure the seat was warm for you???? >:(
>:D
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
This isn't about CAP being cut from the budget.  That's a pretty absurd an idea anyway.  As just said, the mandate is to cut expenses - that being the case, this is all about the Air Force examining what 'non-essential' and 'non-combat' tasks can be handed off to CAP as a value-added proposition to take advantage of our volunteer services.

I bet if many were intellectually honest, there are quite a few things we can do for the Air Force that would save them quite a bit.

Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
You know....a lot of them would probably love it!
Ah yes...

"General Sir... We are sorry, but we have to take your C-37 away from you. But we have arranged for you to fly in a brand new C-182 instead... Your pilot is that older gentleman in the polo shirt over there. "
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 08:44:57 PM
It is more relaxed in Tech School, we had daily formations and marched to class. However, we where not expected to brace if a STA came by nor if a junior officer walked down the hallway. We did call rooms to attention and saluted when appropriate. 

 Such behavior is appropriate for encampment as part of the purpose of encampment is to give them a taste of military life, and basic training.   I woulda gree that Customs and Courtises should be enforced at the squadron at all times.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 18, 2011, 09:29:38 PM
But with all this anti-Air Force Auxiliary stuff that has actually severely fractured our organization over the last decade or so, it caused a lot of State Guard organizations to form or futher develop their own aviation organizations that serve as reserves to the Air Guard.

There aren't as many of those as you might think.

Two of them that I know of were disbanded (New York, Indiana) non-flying units.

The only active ones I know of right now are in Texas, California and Oregon, all of which have a non-flying mission of backfilling Air Guard units in those states when the Air Guard is Federalised.  The only one I know of with a mission similar to CAP is one in Virginia organised along Army Aviation lines. 
Alaska has a flying SDF unit and Vermont may have one.  The VA flying unit uses private planes while Alaska flies state planes.   Hard to get any info about the VT State Guard but best I can tell they are not very active in any area. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 18, 2011, 10:35:48 PM
Alaska has a flying SDF unit and Vermont may have one.  The VA flying unit uses private planes while Alaska flies state planes.   Hard to get any info about the VT State Guard but best I can tell they are not very active in any area.

Are either of them organised along Air Force lines?  California, Texas and Oregon are, as were Indiana and New York.

Also, WRT cadets bracing...I haven't seen that done in about 15 years, and it wasn't just in my unit...it was at least wing-wide.

Of course, it's not on the level of BMT where the first words out of your mouth have to be your reporting statement, unless you want the MTI to crawl down your throat and out another place.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 18, 2011, 11:22:49 PM
Alaska has a flying SDF unit and Vermont may have one.  The VA flying unit uses private planes while Alaska flies state planes.   Hard to get any info about the VT State Guard but best I can tell they are not very active in any area.

Are either of them organised along Air Force lines?  California, Texas and Oregon are, as were Indiana and New York.
Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "organized along Air Force lines".  If what you're asking is if they provide augmentation support to their Air National Guards, I haven't heard of them doing so.  The VA DF is pretty active and growing and I wouldn't be surprised.  Every photo of the VT SG that I've ever seen makes it look like their average age is in the low 70s and not much info is available on them, but I very much doubt they're doing much with their NG.  (But, I could be wrong).
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: sarmed1 on November 19, 2011, 02:06:35 PM
TX actually has a very active State Guard program, including their Air Wing (they actually have a maritime unit as well...interesting) was reading on their site that the original WWII state guard air unit was disbanded with the coming of the federal Civil Air Patrol........

mk
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RiverAux on November 19, 2011, 02:31:43 PM
was reading on their site that the original WWII state guard air unit was disbanded with the coming of the federal Civil Air Patrol........
Many, many states had developed or were developing air units for their state guards but just about, if not all, of them disbanded them in favor of using CAP once it was organized.  The reason is obvious -- they get the same service without having to pay for it themselves.  Which is also probably why almost none have organized flying units since WWII. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 19, 2011, 08:51:04 PM
TX actually has a very active State Guard program, including their Air Wing

Probably the biggest and most active of the State Guard Air Wings.

With all the AFB's and ANG activity in Texas, that is not surprising.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: PhoenixRisen on November 19, 2011, 09:30:18 PM
TX actually has a very active State Guard program, including their Air Wing (they actually have a maritime unit as well...interesting) was reading on their site that the original WWII state guard air unit was disbanded with the coming of the federal Civil Air Patrol........

mk

The California State Military Reserve (state SDF) also has an air component.  I was looking into joining a while back, but found out that their side of the house (versus the Army-side) is restricted to former AF/ANG/AFRES members who held specific AFSCs.  From what I know, the CSMR is a very, very professional organization, and I can only hope that things pick up for them and they're able to go far.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on November 20, 2011, 08:09:58 PM
I do think that Civil Air Patrol will continue as the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

As far as budget priorities, go again AFI 10-2701 is the USAF policy in what they see the role as CAP in.

Pay particular attention to Chapter 1 and the way it is written.
 http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf. (http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf.)  The AF see mission support as the primary reason we exist.

Also as far as the organization being placed in AU/AETC,  personally I'd like to see us placed with the Air National Guard for the mission type support.    The cadet & aerospace education programs could be reassigned and remain under AU/AETC under the Junior ROTC program, as another "Community Outreach" program and the folks at National could be transferred to this division.  Additionally the JROTC staff (as well as the other ROTC staff and the area) could do the appropriate staff assistance visits.    Additionally senior ROTC cadets could assist with instruction of the cadets in this program.   The new cadet organization could remain in the current facility or use another facility (e.g. school/university) for the program. 
RM
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Ed Bos on November 20, 2011, 11:19:43 PM
Alaska has a flying SDF unit and Vermont may have one.  The VA flying unit uses private planes while Alaska flies state planes.   Hard to get any info about the VT State Guard but best I can tell they are not very active in any area.
The Alaska State Defense Force no longer has aircraft. IIRC, they disbanded that mission fairly recently, within the past year or three.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Fox2001 on November 20, 2011, 11:51:26 PM
Saving a dollar is a dollar...the magnitude of savings is not the point.  If CAP is removed as the Aux, CAP will evaporate.

And as for needing Congressional approval...that it so much easier than most people think.

BTW, F-16s don't cost $20mil...they cost a lot more. 

Palafox
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Private Investigator on November 21, 2011, 12:44:39 AM
The California State Military Reserve (state SDF) also has an air component.  I was looking into joining a while back, but found out that their side of the house (versus the Army-side) is restricted to former AF/ANG/AFRES members who held specific AFSCs.  From what I know, the CSMR is a very, very professional organization, and I can only hope that things pick up for them and they're able to go far.

The CSMR got the air component in the last ten years. When I was with the Cal Guard I did not even know we had a CSMR until after Desert Storm. Since 9/11 the CSMR has really done a good job helping the Guard.

Now the CSMR has a bizarre promotion system. If you have a 4 year degree you could be a Captain, Second Lieutenant or a Sergeant depending on what your degree is in.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Private Investigator on November 21, 2011, 12:45:52 AM
I doubt the USCG Aux has the issues the CAP does.   ???
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: NCRblues on November 21, 2011, 01:00:43 AM
I doubt the USCG Aux has the issues the CAP does.   ???

They have a separate set of issues, but issues none the less.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 21, 2011, 01:58:00 AM
Saving a dollar is a dollar...the magnitude of savings is not the point.  If CAP is removed as the Aux, CAP will evaporate.

And as for needing Congressional approval...that it so much easier than most people think.

BTW, F-16s don't cost $20mil...they cost a lot more. 

Palafox

Cutting $30M from the budget does NOT save the USAF $30M.....it will cost them 3-4 times that much to replace us.
That is the point.  Cutting funding to CAP does not cut the service demand that CAP meets.
Balancing the budget is easy....need to cut $350B......just stop building/repairing roads for a year or two......save the money....but now the roads are majorly screwed up and will cost you $400B to fix.

$30M to CAP......will cost the USAF something like $300M to replace.  Because someone will have to do the SAR...Helos and C-130 are not cheap.  We do the Green Flag mission for about 1/4 what the USAF way paying a contractor to do.

So......no....saving money is not saving money.......you have to look at why the money is being spent and how those cost are pushed off when you stop funding it.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on November 21, 2011, 03:19:45 AM
Saving a dollar is a dollar...the magnitude of savings is not the point.  If CAP is removed as the Aux, CAP will evaporate.

And as for needing Congressional approval...that it so much easier than most people think.

BTW, F-16s don't cost $20mil...they cost a lot more. 

Palafox

Cutting $30M from the budget does NOT save the USAF $30M.....it will cost them 3-4 times that much to replace us.
That is the point.  Cutting funding to CAP does not cut the service demand that CAP meets.
Balancing the budget is easy....need to cut $350B......just stop building/repairing roads for a year or two......save the money....but now the roads are majorly screwed up and will cost you $400B to fix.

$30M to CAP......will cost the USAF something like $300M to replace.  Because someone will have to do the SAR...Helos and C-130 are not cheap.  We do the Green Flag mission for about 1/4 what the USAF way paying a contractor to do.

So......no....saving money is not saving money.......you have to look at why the money is being spent and how those cost are pushed off when you stop funding it.
Well as expected it looks fairly certain that  the "Super" Committee isn't going to be successful, so the automatic cuts will start in fiscal year 2013, with defense taking 50% of those cuts.

I would think that again EVERYONE in DOD is going to see a reduction in funding.   There will be some large cuts and some smaller cuts.  It could be a strict % applied to all programs.  It's likely that CAP is going to see a funding cut of some sort.  (I would  guess that the professional staff at National already has a revised FY2013 budget and pretty much knows where the cuts are going to come from).   Probably new aircraft & vehicle procurement will likely be the casualties.
RM     
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Eclipse on November 21, 2011, 03:22:20 AM
Well as expected it looks fairly certain that  the "Super" Committee isn't going to be successful, so the automatic cuts will start in fiscal year 2013, with defense taking 50% of those cuts.

No.  They will simply rescind the automatic cuts - they were priming that idea already last week.

Status.

Quo.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: jimmydeanno on November 21, 2011, 03:25:04 AM
Fact of the matter in DoD is that personnel costs are what are really costing them money:  salaries, healthcare, retirement benefits, disability payments, tuition benefits, training, etc. 
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: SarDragon on November 21, 2011, 03:36:43 AM
You got that right!
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: lordmonar on November 21, 2011, 03:45:50 AM
Saving a dollar is a dollar...the magnitude of savings is not the point.  If CAP is removed as the Aux, CAP will evaporate.

And as for needing Congressional approval...that it so much easier than most people think.

BTW, F-16s don't cost $20mil...they cost a lot more. 

Palafox

Cutting $30M from the budget does NOT save the USAF $30M.....it will cost them 3-4 times that much to replace us.
That is the point.  Cutting funding to CAP does not cut the service demand that CAP meets.
Balancing the budget is easy....need to cut $350B......just stop building/repairing roads for a year or two......save the money....but now the roads are majorly screwed up and will cost you $400B to fix.

$30M to CAP......will cost the USAF something like $300M to replace.  Because someone will have to do the SAR...Helos and C-130 are not cheap.  We do the Green Flag mission for about 1/4 what the USAF way paying a contractor to do.

So......no....saving money is not saving money.......you have to look at why the money is being spent and how those cost are pushed off when you stop funding it.
Well as expected it looks fairly certain that  the "Super" Committee isn't going to be successful, so the automatic cuts will start in fiscal year 2013, with defense taking 50% of those cuts.

I would think that again EVERYONE in DOD is going to see a reduction in funding.   There will be some large cuts and some smaller cuts.  It could be a strict % applied to all programs.  It's likely that CAP is going to see a funding cut of some sort.  (I would  guess that the professional staff at National already has a revised FY2013 budget and pretty much knows where the cuts are going to come from).   Probably new aircraft & vehicle procurement will likely be the casualties.
RM     
Maybe......we'll see.
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: davedove on November 21, 2011, 12:55:09 PM
Fact of the matter in DoD is that personnel costs are what are really costing them money:  salaries, healthcare, retirement benefits, disability payments, tuition benefits, training, etc.

As is true of all government branches.  Actually, the DoD has a lower personnel cost as a percentage of total budget than the rest of the government, although it's still high.  That's because DoD has all those fancy gadgets to buy and upkeep. 8)
Title: Re: Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?
Post by: Eclipse on December 06, 2011, 01:15:44 AM
https://www.capnhq.gov/news/news05Dec11.htm (https://www.capnhq.gov/news/news05Dec11.htm)
Cadet Funding Update: Funds for cadet orientation flights, new cadet kits, and cadet uniforms have been turned back on!

05 Dec 2011

- O-rides can commence as of 28 November

- Backlogged AE modules are now being shipped (2,500 packets total)

- New cadet kits are being shipped, starting with backlogs (800 binders total)

- Limited numbers of cadet uniform orders are being shipped

Any remaining cadet uniform orders will be held until further funds for purchases and shipping are released.

Next "emergency" please...